Home heating automation

Barrett1234

Hi I have a standard timer to turn on or off the heating. Beside the timer I have two separate switches on the wall which will open/close zone valves for upstairs/downstairs. I have a Drayton wiser smart thermostat and had a plumber out who told me it is not compatible with my home. Does this sound correct? He then wanted me to go with his more expensive solution

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450192#Comment_121450192

You'll need a system with two thermostats linked to a controller or receiver(s) with at least two outputs for switching the valves independently. The output of the relays in the valves are combined to fire the boiler in place of your standard timer. Two wired Tado thermostats connected to open the valves will do the job. If you can't run wires from the stat locations, you can uses two wireless thermostats such as hive, each with its own receiver per valve. You don't say if you have HW control separately. If you already have a Drayton wiser single zone thermostat and receiver, you'll need a second one for the second zone.

Barrett1234

Was also considering getting a hive because bord Gáis will install. So if I was to get a hive/keep Drayton. Am I correct in saying the hub would replace the current timer switch. Then the wires for the upstairs downstairs valves need to be moved over to the hub also? Then the two wireless stats can call the hub to control?

If I turn both valves off and turn on the timer then just HW will heat but if I turn on one valve it’ll heat that zone and HW. Currently no thermostat in the house, just the two switches for the zone valves located beside the timer to turn on/off the heating

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450710#Comment_121450710

I wouldn't advise getting a split system with one valve on a hive stat and one on a Drayton, if only because you'll have two different apps for each, and the installer will have to cope with different receivers and hubs, it could get very confusing wiring to the valves.

You have a two motorised valved CH system with a pumped HW feed to your cylinder, so HW heats whenever the boiler is fired. More a 2½ zone than a three zone system, but this is fine. You already have a Drayton CH thermostat with I presumes a single zone receiver, the Kit 1. You can get another version of this, the Kit 2, which has a wireless stat also, but the receiver has two output relays,, one for CH and one for HW. This will give you three distinct controlled outputs. The two CH will switch the valves. Your valves should have unused relays in them, the grey and orange wires inside the valve wiring lead. These relays are used to send live to boiler to fire it after a valve opens. These two lives can be combined with the HW live from the Drayton 2 zone receiver, so that either valve or the HW relay will fire the boiler, with HW heating either alone or with a CH zone. The combined lives from the valves and HW terminal on the Drayton receiver replace the live currently supplied by your single timer, which is binned.

As regards getting a Hive system from the utility, you'll need two, a CH stat and receiver kit and a CH stat+HW kit. Hive use an additional wireless box called a hub to bridge your Internet to the stats and receivers, just one will do both kits. I'll link them below. Top one has a receiver for one valve, (one button on the box) The bottom one has a receiver for the other valve plus a HW relay (two buttons(. Also in this kit is the hub unit on the right, which wirelessly links everything to your Internet. These are the Hive Mini versions, the pricier Hive Active has a more rugged stat with a twisty knob. Your power utility will probably only want to give you the top one, so negotiate for both to keep your zones. Send a pic of your timer and the valves if you can, to try and check if your valve actuators have the boiler relay inside. They should.

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless-white-grey/681pv

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-hot-water-smart-thermostat-white-grey/901pv

Dozz

Hi All.

I was hoping someone can help me out?

My current setup is a 3 zone system (Living area, bedrooms and hot water) with the living area and hot water controlled by a nest Thermostat and Heat link. Bedrooms controlled by the old time with a thermostat located in the hall (brutal location).

Anyway I want to control the heat in the bedrooms better so was considering investing it some of the TADO radiator thermostats and a starter kit that includes a wireless thermostat, hotwater kit and internet bridge. My thinking is that the thermostat and hot water kit can replace my nest & heatlink for the living area then the internet bridge can control the radiator thermostats in the bedroom however I will still have to rely on the time clock to turn the heat on in the bedroom zone.

I want to remove the timeclock totally from the equation and be able to control the heating remotely

Am I correct in assuming that if i invested in a second wired TADO for the bedroom zone that it will be unable to call for heat from the boiler unless the existing time clock is ON at all times?

OR

Would I be better off buying a second nest thermostat and heatlink to control the bedroom zone and then just tweak the existing dumb radiator thermostats.

Any advise is appreciated.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451591#Comment_121451591

Is this timeclock you have the original 3 zone timer before you got the Nest? And you still just use the beds timer and mechanical wall stat for beds (upstairs?). If so, you can remove the timer, hardwire the live to the beds stat output, and replace beds stat with the wired Tado as you suggested. This will turn on and off the upstairs zone with its own zone or 'room' schedule.

You can place a TRV in the master bedroom, it will call the Tado in the hall when it's own schedule requires heat (all other rads in this zone will heat unless you fit them with TRV's, smart or manual).

You say hall, not landing, so is this a bungalow? Would it be difficult to extend the wire pair from this old hall stat into the master bed, and situate the wired Tado there? It's also possible to use the TRV temperature sensor as the measuring device for the hall located wired stat, which then just becomes a relay, but the effect is the same, TRV calls from the master bed heat all dumb rads in the zone.

Image or make of timer would help, and is it co-located with the Nest healink.

Dozz

Hi @deezell thanks for that info. I think I understand what you are saying.

The timer is a Horstmann similar to the photo attached.

In the current setup HTG2 & Water are redundant (as the Nest & heatlink controls these). HTG1 controls heating to the bedrooms and wall stat in the hall controls the overall temp in that zone.

Timer.jpg

SouthWesterly

I've a tado system and find some of my rooms go offline.

The biggest issue is the kitchen. I've a rad tvr linked to a wall stat. The control panel is in a press in the kitchen and hub is outside the door in the hallway.

Batteries were changed recently.

Has anyone any solution?

Thanks

ongarite

I had issue with Tado TRV where it went offline & it was bad battery connection on metal hinge. I had to add some tinfoil as a metal wedge to keep good connection.

If you turn the offline TRV outer ring does the display light up or if you click blink display through app, does it respond?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451748#Comment_121451748

Just leave htg1 on full or remove the timer and tie the live to the htg2 output wire. The Tado wired will take of time and temperature schedules. You'll fetch a few quid for the Nest too on Donedeal.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451968#Comment_121451968

As a test use a longer cable with the bridge (hub), try elevating it. Many routers are on the floor with the bridge down there also, not ideal.

Is the kitchen stat just a temp sensor for the kitchen TRV, or is the kitchen stat a zone stat, wired or through the extension kit (control panel). All Tado devices connect through the bridge, star configuration, afaik the sensor stats are no different, a TRV and its controlling walk sensor stat don't talk to each other in a mesh configuration.

Some have had success with using an thernet powerline extender pair to position the bridge in a better place, Tado support can also check your connection signal strength and tweak devices to optimise connections. Do follow up on @ongarite suggestion that you might have poor TRV battery connections, or if it's temperature is measured by a wireless sensor, the fault might lie with the sensor stat. Looking at 'Devices' in the app should show which of the two have lost connection, If that is what you have.

Mr Velo

Hi guys,

Complete novice here now at all this stuff. 21 years in the house (dormer) this year and have the same setup since we moved in. Firebird Keroseene boiler controlled by a Hortsmann 3 zone time clock similar to what @Dozz has linked above.

We don't have any thermostats (that I know of). Basically HTG1 turns on downstairs rads (motorized valve controlled), HTG 2 turns on the upstairs rads, and HTG3 heats the water. What would I need to do to make this more modern in terms of being able to remotely control turning on the heat etc?

Thanks.

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452030#Comment_121452030

I'll have to check that out.

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452153#Comment_121452153

It's working now. I'll try a longer cable.

Barrett1234

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451533#Comment_121451533

Wow thank you for the detailed reply. I will need to discuss further with electrician or plumber. I don’t have the know how to go at the wires myself

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452507#Comment_121452507

These two Hive kits together

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-hot-water-smart-thermostat-white-grey/901pv

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless-white-grey/681pv

Or this Drayton kit 3

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/drayton-wiser-wireless-heating-hot-water-3-channel-thermostat-control-kit-white/4081v

Straight drop in for your existing 3 zone controller, no other wiring needed, stats are wireless. Shop around, black friday prices gone on Screwfix, though the Hive minis are still well priced. the Drayton sometimes discounted on Amazon.

brio09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451968#Comment_121451968

i've faced this a few times. i faced rooms going offline when there is sufficient battery when I had moved the internet hub to a different place that was too far for that radiator

Mr Velo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454123#Comment_121454123

Cheers @deezell - do I need rad thermostats for this ? Or is this just replacing the actual Hortsmann clock ?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454284#Comment_121454284

Initially you are replacing the Horstmann. Your current setup is just on off timed slots with no temperature control. With smart thermostats you create full all day time and temperature schedules, finely adjusting your zones temperature as the day progresses, with full app control, and various smart features such as geolocation, away mode, modulated boiler firing, weather compensation, all designed to give you more comfort for less fuel.

Once you familiarise yourself with your chosen smart zone controlled system, you could add in smart TRVs (radiator thermostats) for individual room control. If your radiators already have mechanical TRVs fitted, then they have the right valves to fit smart TRV control heads, otherwise you will need to swap the valve bodies from manual twist valve to press pin TRV type. This is a job for plumber or competent DIYer. Some will do just a few rooms, to have the option of closing off their heating when not needed at different times. It's entirely up to the individual.

Mr Velo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454696#Comment_121454696

That's excellent. Thanks so much for the info.

Dozz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452056#Comment_121452056

@deezell I assume a second nest thermostat (without the heatlink) would work the same as described above?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454982#Comment_121454982

No. Each nest needs a heatlink to operate. The heatlink has only one CH relay. Nest is what it is, it was developed from the American offering, which had multiple low voltage wired connections on the actual wall device designed to work directly with US HVAC standards, entirely unsuitable for here or Europe. Nest created the European version with the extra heatlink receiver for mains voltage switching for HW and CH.

I installed one in Holland for family when it was first released in the European version, many years ago. They never altered the product since other than to create an eco version with CH only, the Nest E , with a smaller battery operated receiver.

This might be a viable route to a second nest zone stat, but I couldn't say if it can be integrated onto a single app for both stats, they're almost completely different products. The E stat is a plasticity version of the Nest 3rd gen, and uses a rechargeable battery, and can be powered from a charger/adapter. It's also still pretty expensive for what it is.

The E was discontinued in the US, and the future of Nest products and support is uncertain, with the parent Google scrapping a number of Nest devices. There have been no advances since its introduction, no TRV support, and a strange approach to powering the stats themselves has created a product that is probably baffling to the heating trade, indeed, to electricians and engineers. If support at the app level is withdrawn, you'll end up with a product that's just a wireless wall stat with no cloud or Internet support. This is my read on it anyway, I don't see a long future for it.

https://www.currys.ie/products/google-nest-thermostat-e-10186639.html

Dozz

Thanks @deezell you help and advice is greatly appreciated.

Redriddick

Probably asked a thousand tunes so apologies. I have an eph 2 zone system and would like the ability to remote turn on the heating. Can I replace the eph timer with something else?

Just want the ability to boost for an hour remotely if I'm away from the house

stueymc

Looking for a bit of help/advice if possible.

I have a Viessman Vitodens 200-W WB2B gas boiler fitted. It is about 10 or 11 years old, runs perfectly. It has a integrated, factory fitted timer. The heating system is two zone - rad.'s and hot cylinder - controlled by Danfoss room stat., cylinder stat., and a RX2C controller. Heating only, no DHW. The built in timer is a bit simplistic, and not wifi. And from what I can figure out, to go the Viessman route of making the boiler wifi accessible is both awkward and expensive. Ideally I would like to put in an Optimium OP-BM-IHTWF01 Wi-Fi Boiler Module (or something similar) but can not figure out how. In theory I know I have to bypass the built in timer/controller, and set the boiler to permanently ON, and then let the external timer take over. Has anyone any experience with this type of boiler? Or has anyone already solved this problem, and is willing to share the "How"?

Thanks very much.

techdiver

Hi All.

I've had a hive system installed for the last number of years and love it. It's a 2 zone with hot water on gas. I installed it myself pretty easily with some help from online sources. It really changed how our house is heated. Previously we used to just boost every now and then and this resulted in peaks and troughs. Once I installed hive I was able to keep the house at a consistent enough temperature without any significant increase in gas usage.

So fast forward to Black Friday this year and Amazon ran a good discount on the Hive TRVs, so I decided to jump on them and purchased 9 of them. Here is my review (Spoiler, they are useless).

1. I installed and paired them without any fuss, it was basically seamless apart form 1 radiator that the plumber for some reason installed an old 28mm connection instead of the 30mm everywhere else and none of the adapter supplied with hive worked (not hives fault obviously).
2. I had read that it takes a long time to calibrate so I did the immediate calibration which took around 4 hours with the heat boosted during this time. All the valves calibrated fine and were ready for use.
3. I enabled Heat on Demand, which essentially means as each room drops below a target temperature the individual valves will call to boos the heat until it reaches the target temperature. For the most part this operation seems to work fine.
4. Where everything falls apart is when more than 1 valve calls for HOD during the same window none of them will close off heat until the last one is finished. So in essence the only part of HOD that works is the boosting. The valves remain open constantly and overshoot significantly.
5. The limitation of how the valves measure temperature is clear as day. Unless you have the ideal conditions (no radiators under windows, radiators completely free for air flow etc), the temperature readings are way off. By as much as a few degrees. This causes a perpetual boost stop boost cycle where the valve falls below target temperature, call for heat, reaches target temperature, stop calling for heat, quickly drops temperature again, calls for etc, and round we go.

Regarding point 4 above, I was reading online that the reason that can happen (valve not closing off), is due to the valve not being fitted correctly. I ruled this out by running a simple test. I turn the valve completely off from the app and boost the heat. In this situation the valve clearly works and the radiator in question doesn't heat up. So that proves that it is installed correctly and the fault of the valve not closing off when on a schedule is down to software. This same behaviour is repeated with all the valves not just one of them so it's a systemic issue. So wit all this in mind rather than the valves adding to the efficiency of the overall system it causes more gas to be used than without them. I tested over 2 days with identical outdoor temperatures. One with the valves enabled on a schedule controlling the heat and another with the valves just set to open and reverting back to using the main thermostat.

So TLDR, these valves are not fit for purpose. Whatever algorithm they use to control the opening and closing of the valves simple doesn't work (or has way too much latency in them). Once they call for HOD it seems they don't close for hours regardless of whether they reach target temperature of not. I keep reading people online saying they work great for them, but I guarantee that they haven't actually tested them correctly and are just under the illusion that because they see individual TRVs calling for heat that they are working fully.

I think I will be returning mine for a refund and would not advise that anyone purchase them for their setup unless all they want is a limit on the lowest point for temperature because that part works but it will overshoot your target temperature and continue to heat up as long as the boiler is on.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121460950#Comment_121460950

Two CH zones, or one CH and HW?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461042#Comment_121461042

Point 4 sounds very wrong. I can only venture a guess as to why they might remain open after scheduled period is up. It seems they are acting as if no other source is calling the boiler, so they just instruct the relay to stop the boiler, but not close the valve. They may not be closing the valve either when they are the only TRV in operation, but they stop heating as the boiler is no longer under call from any TRV. It seems to point to mechanical calibration, the TRVs are not pressing the pins fully home to close the valves.

techdiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461384#Comment_121461384

I had thought that initially but why is it consistent across all of the valves and on 2 separate zones which were calibrated separately?

In one instance in the upstairs zone one of the valves lost it's calibration and was calibrated a second time and still exhibits the same behaviour.

What I've noticed is any valve on a schedule that calls for heat at any time remains open perpetually so far in my testing. The work perfectly to call for heat and stop the boosting but the mechanical closing of the valve post this step never works unless I manually set the valve to off in the app and then the valve closes fine.

Example: The dining room valve called for heat this morning and got to and overshot the target temperature (which in itself is fine as that is expected in isolation), stopped calling for heat, but the kitchen valve was still calling for heat and the dining room radiator kept heating until the boiler turned off. Subsequently a while later the sitting room valve called for heat and was the only valve "opened" according to the app, but all radiators heated up even though they were all at or above target temperature and were marked as off in the app.

So not an isolated "one of the valves is failing". All of them behave the same and don't shut off unless manually turned off in the app (which proves mechanically that they are capable of turning off the radiator).

deezell

Well that shows that all the valves which were 'off' hadn't pressed the trv valve pin down to the bottom. This is what I suggested, that the valves are not closing the valves fully. There may be some algorithm whereby a valve will close partially but assume the boiler zone will be off, so no circulation. I haven't read on any forum of this before, though recall a Tado TRV owner having valve closing problems. You got the TRV valves fitted specifically for Hive TRVs, you didn't already have TRVs with mechanical heads. Is it possible the TRV valves are mechanically unsuitable for the Hive. There might be some 30mm heads with the right 1.5 thread, but perhaps the pins are a bit short and need extenders to ensure the hive closes them.