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Home heating automation
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Metric Tensor wrote: »Have Home Assistant up and (partially) running. I have an old fashioned three zone time clock on my system, coupled with TRVs where possible. So I'm looking at what might be my best integration option - good to see EPH is an option now too!
The EPH smart system, known as EMBER, is available from Heatmerchants for €295 for 3 zones. €246 for 2. I'm not that impressed by the look of the stats tbh, and you will need to pretty much remove your old 3 zone timer and wire in the Ember in its place. Moving the timing function to a smart stat makes for a simple install, 2 wires, and just switch your old zone timer to Permanently on. On the other hand it's good to get rid of ageing devices from the chain, so the EMBER does that.
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The EPH smart system, known as EMBER, is available from Heatmerchants for €295 for 3 zones. €246 for 2. I'm not that impressed by the look of the stats tbh, and you will need to pretty much remove your old 3 zone timer and wire in the Ember in its place. Moving the timing function to a smart stat makes for a simple install, 2 wires, and just switch your old zone timer to Permanently on. On the other hand it's good to get rid of ageing devices from the chain, so the EMBER does that.
Looks good but why would I pay €295 for a 3 zone timer and not pay less than a tenner for the sonoff? Do they not essentially do the same thing?
Not trying to be smart but just wondering if I'm missing something
https://www.itead.cc/sonoff-wifi-wireless-switch.html0 -
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Why would you indeed. I wasn't recommending it, just posting information on it. The poster who had it installed said as much, it's not going to light up the smart heating world. I can close a set of contacts remotely on my cctv camera, I could use that to turn on and off my boiler for free, but that's not what's at stake. Perhaps some current users of EPH 3 zone controllers would be happy with an upgrade kit thats plug and play into their existing backplates, a diy job, no €300 plumbers bill. Maybe the smart features are not sophisticated but it's a big step up for the user, and the three zone control is already familiar. Nest and tado and the others require a step up in hardware to cover two zones and HW, Nest being a rather expensive option as you need two of the expensive devices. What you get though is amazing versatility of programming, specific times on specific days at specific temperatures, responding automatically if all registered occupants are away, with multiple choice response on a time slot by time slot basis, plus predictive firing of the boiler based on the weather and temperature outside (garnered from accuweather or the likes). You'd be a long time programming that onto a set of switches. My choice is Tado. The V2 is a bargain at the moment, extra zone stat is not a ripoff and individual room control is available using tado TRVs.Looks good but why would I pay €295 for a 3 zone timer and not pay less than a tenner for the sonoff? Do they not essentially do the same thing?
Not trying to be smart but just wondering if I'm missing something
https://www.itead.cc/sonoff-wifi-wireless-switch.html0 -
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Except that plumbers wire many of them
This is acceptable as many systems are wired using a colour coded push fit central wiring box, such as the the systemlex or the NRG Awareness box. You can wire the box with a 3 pin plug, then all the connections for the zone valves or pumps, the zone stats, the boiler mains in and the boiler SL or call for heat wire, are all in the box clearly marked. Adding a smart interface to an existing box like this is just a case of connecting the stat COM and NO wires from the box to either the new smart stat (such as tado) or to it's control/ extension box ( nest and tado extension kit). In a new install you can wire stats valves and pumps directly to the smart system interface, but wiring boxes like these makes it a doddle.
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This is about as basic as a system can get. You have to guess the number of " notches" on the mechanical or digital timer to set on in order to have a reasonable level of heat. I put up with this for way too long, constantly jumping up to add an extra bit, too warm on mild nights, never a consistent temperature. Just the addition of a thermostat changes everything, and the addition of a stat which can have programmed temperatures at different times is a game changer. This heatmiser here might be all you need. https://www.heatmisershop.co.uk/heatmiser-slimline-n-12v-programmable-thermostat/?utm_medium=googleshopping&utm_source=bc&gclid=CjwKCAjw64bPBRApEiwAJhG-fhxgS7aLPMVYnQ2XByytAaeCFcsDFAABn_FhF3W0Ib3aa3-Tj4hjxxoCVfsQAvD_BwESorry, I'd been reading threads all morning on here and then more or less puked it all out on the page.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
GFCH, condensing boiler (to allow for solar in due course).....Maybe I'm misunderstanding the role of the controller on the wall. In my house at present I have a controller but no thermostat,
The controller is effectively redundant if the stat can not only regulate the temperature but also alter the temperature at different times. Most controllers are just timers. 1 or multiple zones, they just turn the heat on to that area regardless of need. Adding a stat to each controller zone will save a lot of energy and create a steady temperature while the controller in on for that zone. The next step up is to regulate the temperatures outside the peak periods instead of just a crude cut off, by introducing time and temperature programming. The final enhancements to this are remote access, predictive operation and automatic absence detection, which is where smart stats come in. Current systems are a bit hybrid at the moment, with slowly evolving installation schemes based on adding to rather than replacing well established existing wiring schemes. Early oil boilers didn't even have a timer, you just turned them on like switching on a gas stove. Once you were warm, turn it off, otherwise it just heated the water constantly to the limit of its in built stat, which was your only control of the heat to your radiators. Zoned controllers with thermostats on the walls and on the hot water cylinder have barely become the norm, and yet here we are in the smart age. This is probably why so much of the smart product available builds on existing hardware rather than replacing it. A zone timer is redundant in a new smart install, but it's not immediately obvious to a plumber how to wire up the controls to the valves, pumps, stats and boiler in the absence of the familiar timer box, so he might be more comfortable with this method of installation, leaving it to others to upgrade his work by the addition of smart devices. The choice of brand of smart heating control will determine what extra wiring and junction boxes you will need for a tidy install. A good starting point is the use of a well labelled wiring centre, the best 100 odd euros you will ever spend. Here's the NRG Lex below.
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This is about as basic as a system can get. You have to guess the number of " notches" on the mechanical or digital timer to set on in order to have a reasonable level of heat. I put up with this for way too long, constantly jumping up to add an extra bit, too warm on mild nights, never a consistent temperature. Just the addition of a thermostat changes everything, and the addition of a stat which can have programmed temperatures at different times is a game changer. This heatmiser here might be all you need. https://www.heatmisershop.co.uk/heatmiser-slimline-n-12v-programmable-thermostat/?utm_medium=googleshopping&utm_source=bc&gclid=CjwKCAjw64bPBRApEiwAJhG-fhxgS7aLPMVYnQ2XByytAaeCFcsDFAABn_FhF3W0Ib3aa3-Tj4hjxxoCVfsQAvD_BwE
The controller is effectively redundant if the stat can not only regulate the temperature but also alter the temperature at different times. Most controllers are just timers. 1 or multiple zones, they just turn the heat on to that area regardless of need. Adding a stat to each controller zone will save a lot of energy and create a steady temperature while the controller in on for that zone. The next step up is to regulate the temperatures outside the peak periods instead of just a crude cut off, by introducing time and temperature programming. The final enhancements to this are remote access, predictive operation and automatic absence detection, which is where smart stats come in. Current systems are a bit hybrid at the moment, with slowly evolving installation schemes based on adding to rather than replacing well established existing wiring schemes. Early oil boilers didn't even have a timer, you just turned them on like switching on a gas stove. Once you were warm, turn it off, otherwise it just heated the water constantly to the limit of its in built stat, which was your only control of the heat to your radiators. Zoned controllers with thermostats on the walls and on the hot water cylinder have barely become the norm, and yet here we are in the smart age. This is probably why so much of the smart product available builds on existing hardware rather than replacing it. A zone timer is redundant in a new smart install, but it's not immediately obvious to a plumber how to wire up the controls to the valves, pumps, stats and boiler in the absence of the familiar timer box, so he might be more comfortable with this method of installation, leaving it to others to upgrade his work by the addition of smart devices. The choice of brand of smart heating control will determine what extra wiring and junction boxes you will need for a tidy install. A good starting point is the use of a well labelled wiring centre, the best 100 odd euros you will ever spend. Here's the NRG Lex below.
Thanks again for that very detailed response deezell - it makes sense now. I was thinking why doesn't the one box do everything and it seems it is just a retrofitting market.
Just on that heatmiser you linked - it doesn't appear to be wifi enabled so not remote controllable? They have other similar products which are though I think. I spoke with one electrician over the phone who was a registered installer of one the big name products who was very helpful so i'll just look him up when job done - he actually recommended against the big name product in question as he thought it didn't work well in multi zone environment - that's the kind of honesty you need when getting advice on something like this.
Franky bizarre that the lads who are doing the job from scratch for me can't do it, in this day and age, young sparks too and they've no suggestions to even make.
Again anything I need to put in now to future proof install? My Builder mate said just to ensure the thermostats have two lines coming into them or something?0 -
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what happens to the efficiency of your condenser boiler when you start to shut down rads or even use one zone instead of the 2 or 3 that its been designed to heat on the first place?
The efficiency of any condensor boiler is related to the the return temperature of the hot water from the radiators/hot water cylinder. From a cold start, the cold water in the radiators will be displaced by the incoming hot, and this cold water will cool the exhaust gasses of the boiler, collecting heat. When the radiators are fully hot, the return water will heat up to the difference between the arriving hot water and the heat loss to the room from the rad. If the return water is very hot the efficiency of the boiler will reduce. As long as the room themostat is open, the water will keep pumping. In an ideal scenario, the rate of pumping of the water is just sufficient to resupply the rad with hot while at the same time allowing the maximum heat to escape from the water before it returns. If only a small number of radiators are openall the flow will go to the remaining rads, increasing the likelyhood of high return temperature, There are a number of methods to improve efficiency.
1. Larger radiators will allow the desired room temperature to be reached quicker and reduce the return temperature of the water.
2. Intelligent circulation pumps can be set to a fixed pressure, and can also auto adjust as the load increases or decreases. Pumps like this one.
3. Many condensor boilers have smart features, pumps etc built in, they can measure the return temperature, or can modulate the heat output to better match demand and optimise return temperature.
4. A smart thermostat which has the ability to connect to such boilers, and can read the water temperature from the boiler and can Manage the firing rate. These are connected to the boiler by the digital or OT (OpenTherm) connections on the boiler and on the stat or its extension box. See connections for NEST. First image is a standard boiler connected by the SL or switched live connectors of the nest box, next Image it's connected to the OT terminals. A similar set are available in the Tado stat, and extension box.
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The efficiency of any condensor boiler is related to the the return temperature of the hot water from the radiators/hot water cylinder. From a cold start, the cold water in the radiators will be displaced by the incoming hot, and this cold water will cool the exhaust gasses of the boiler, collecting heat. When the radiators are fully hot, the return water will heat up to the difference between the arriving hot water and the heat loss to the room from the rad. If the return water is very hot the efficiency of the boiler will reduce. As long as the room themostat is open, the water will keep pumping. In an ideal scenario, the rate of pumping of the water is just sufficient to resupply the rad with hot while at the same time allowing the maximum heat to escape from the water before it returns. If only a small number of radiators are openall the flow will go to the remaining rads, increasing the likelyhood of high return temperature, There are a number of methods to improve efficiency.
1. Larger radiators will allow the desired room temperature to be reached quicker and reduce the return temperature of the water.
2. Intelligent circulation pumps can be set to a fixed pressure, and can also auto adjust as the load increases or decreases. Pumps like this one.
3. Many condensor boilers have smart features, pumps etc built in, they can measure the return temperature, or can modulate the heat output to better match demand and optimise return temperature.
4. A smart thermostat which has the ability to connect to such boilers, and can read the water temperature from the boiler and can Manage the firing rate. These are connected to the boiler by the digital or OT (OpenTherm) connections on the boiler and on the stat or its extension box. See connections for NEST. Image on the left is a standard boiler connected by the SL or switched live connectors of the nest box, on the right it's connected to the OT terminals. A similar set are available in the Tado stat, and extension box.
Thanks for the detailed response, very interesting.......would you mind re-posting the pics, they aren’t appearing in your post, also I’m interested in the nest one specifically as I wasn’t aware it could be set up that way0 -
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Yup registered the hub and the devices and it's now awaiting install instructions before it will let me proceed. I'll drop them a note tomorrow if it's still not unlocked as I plan to install at the weekend. No problems registering the devices so appears everything is good with the 2nd hand Maplin stock - thanks again deezell for spotting the bargainOh also to add, I got confirmation from Tado that there is no problem buying used, the worse case is they may already be registered to another account, in which case, send a pic of the back of the stat with the receipt and they will resolve it.
Sounds great. You will just need one hub, pair a stat with it and the app will progress to install complete. You then just add the second stat using "add device" on the app. Could be a good few minutes updating on the stats,
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Yup registered the hub and the devices and it's now awaiting install instructions before it will let me proceed. I'll drop them a note tomorrow if it's still not unlocked as I plan to install at the weekend. No problems registering the devices so appears everything is good with the 2nd hand Maplin stock - thanks again deezell for spotting the bargain
You're welcome. Exactly what I had to do. I had them on the wall and they were working away via the buttons, but I had to message them to say the install was complete and to please update the status to this. Once they did that the app install completed and I had full control.
BTW, as I've only one zone, I enquired about running the TRVs using the stat as the device which switches on the boiler. There was uncertainty in other blogs if they need the extension kit to communicate. Tado confirmed that a TRV will indeed fire the boiler via a chosen stat's wired connection. While they were at it they gave me a discount code for 10%, so I got two TRVs for £53.10 each on the UK site, about €59. Nice one.0 -
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