Home heating automation

deezell

skerry wrote: »

So, I justified a Smart TRV purchase after all. The little ones room is above the kitchen so is always too hot and rest of upstairs rooms can get quite cold over the night so not ideal. She had a temp last night so, bleary eyed with lack of sleep, I convinced myself that a Smart TRV in babies room will absolutely solve this problem and whipped out the phone and bought one

Have a Smart Stat on the way for upstairs too but in all likelihood might be a couple of weeks before I get this installed so would like to set up Smart TRV to control little ones room in the meantime.

Can this be operated independently of a Smart stat? I'm presuming in my situation it will just give better control by closing her rad down better when temp reached and letting other rads stay on.

I read that the TRV can call for heat from the boiler independently? Just wondering how this is achieved, is it through communicating with a Tado wall Stat? Also I presume in a case where the room with smart TRV is colder and calling for heat, that all other rads in that zone will heat also unless I have Smart TRVs on all the rads I'm using?

Probably some obvious questions above but first experience with smart TRV and after convincing the missus in our sleep deprived state last night that this will solve our woes I need to sound like I know what I'm talking about

Wake up now and pay attention! Smart TRV can operate independently as it's own zone to control the temperature in a room. It will operate like a normal mechanical TRV in that it closes the valve when room temperature reaches target, opens It when below. It will have its own page on the app, and all the usual settings apply. It can also call the boiler as it is linked to the main stat. A single TRV in a zone of non TRV radiators will of course cause these radiators to heat if it calls for heat. It will be independent of the zone stat however in terms of controlling the temperature of that room. As you are putting in a bedroom zone stat, this is the one the TRV will be linked to. When you add a TRV to the Tado app as a seperate zone, it also appears as a device in the stat zone where it will link to fire the boiler. Now from previous reading on this I believe the TRV will "take to " your primary stat, the living room one, so you will need to contact tado support to have it's call for heat linked to the new upstairs stat. The upstairs stat will still operate as a general stat for the zone, but the TRV wil control that room specifically. If you require other rooms in a zone to be off while a TRV controlled one is calling the boiler, you must fit these with TRVs also.
A second method is to add a TRV into a stat zone, where it just opens and closes at the behest of the stat settings. This would just leave you in the same situation, but is a configuration that is used when there is a TRV radiator in the same space as the main stat.
One other thing, the valve body on the rad must be of a TRV type, press down pin as against a screw type valve. I'm guessing that this bedroom didn't have a mechanical TRV, or you would have used it to cap the room temperature, so it's a small-ish plumbing job to swap out a screw valve body for a trv valve body, onto which the Tado TRV head fits.

skerry

deezell wrote: »

Wake up now and pay attention! Smart TRV can operate independently as it's own zone to control the temperature in a room. It will operate like a normal mechanical TRV in that it closes the valve when room temperature reaches target, opens It when below. It will have its own page on the app, and all the usual settings apply. It can also call the boiler as it is linked to the main stat. A single TRV in a zone of non TRV radiators will of course cause these radiators to heat if it calls for heat. It will be independent of the zone stat however in terms of controlling the temperature of that room. As you are putting in a bedroom zone stat, this is the one the TRV will be linked to. When you add a TRV to the Tado app as a seperate zone, it also appears as a device in the stat zone where it will link to fire the boiler. Now from previous reading on this I believe the TRV will "take to " your primary stat, the living room one, so you will need to contact tado support to have it's call for heat linked to the new upstairs stat. The upstairs stat will still operate as a general stat for the zone, but the TRV wil control that room specifically. If you require other rooms in a zone to be off while a TRV controlled one is calling the boiler, you must fit these with TRVs also.
A second method is to add a TRV into a stat zone, where it just opens and closes at the behest of the stat settings. This would just leave you in the same situation, but is a configuration that is used when there is a TRV radiator in the same space as the main stat.
One other thing, the valve body on the rad must be of a TRV type, press down pin as against a screw type valve. I'm guessing that this bedroom didn't have a mechanical TRV, or you would have used it to cap the room temperature, so it's a small-ish plumbing job to swap out a screw valve body for a trv valve body, onto which the Tado TRV head fits.

Legend - Thanks a million.

Might install TRV when it arrives if I can't get bedroom zone stat installed in time and contact Tado to link TRV to upstairs stat instead of downstairs once its installed.

Bedroom zone stat is a simple temp dial type (not programmable) so hoping this is a reasonably striaghforward swap out for Tado stat. If so, I might chance it myself this time.

There is currently a mechanical TRV on that rad but I just can't seem to get the control I need over the temp in her room with it, its either too hot or too cold. Should be a case of just putting Tado TRV on instead so.

There's only 3 rooms we really use upstairs so will be hoping to add Smart TRVs to the other 2 rads soon enough and close off the other rads that aren't used. At the moment its a case of Babba's room is roasting and we're going to bed with hot water bottles as we don't want it to be too hot for her over the course of the night.

Downstairs not so much of a concerns and can add TRV's over time but lot of variation upstairs due to differences in room sizes and locations relative to the hotter areas of the house downstairs.

viperlogic

Don't forget to get the Tado Bridge

skerry

viperlogic wrote: »

Don't forget to get the Tado Bridge

Thanks, have the bridge from purchase of Smart stat for downstairs zone before Christmas.

Got TRV on its own for E55 on Amazon last night so happy with that price.

viperlogic

skerry wrote: »

Thanks, have the bridge from purchase of Smart stat for downstairs zone before Christmas.

Got TRV on its own for E55 on Amazon last night so happy with that price.

How was it only €55? They usually £59

deezell

Wiggled another £10 discount? £49 is about €55-56

skerry

viperlogic wrote: »

How was it only €55? They usually £59

Amazon had £10 off discount code yesterday so took advantage of that and got TRV for £49

skerry

deezell wrote: »

Wiggled another £10 discount? £49 is about €55-56

Have 2 Amazon accounts so got the Smart Stat on one and the TRV on the other. Hoping orders are fulfilled with no issues, money taken from card but not dispatched yet

skerry

Both Smart TRV and additional Stat shipped, delighted with that now. The 2 account thing worked. Probably helped that both sent to Parcel Motel and not same home address.

tweek84

Is there any smart trv that can be controlled with alexa that doesn't require a hub? Or what are my options?

deezell

tweek84 wrote: »

Is there any smart trv that can be controlled with alexa that doesn't require a hub? Or what are my options?

It's not really feasible to have a smart TRV connect via the normal WiFi, the TRV batteries wouldn't last more than a few weeks. TRVs use a very low power mesh wireless protocol, 6LoWPAN, which consumes very little power and allows smart devices to form a mesh and pass the signals on to each other, so the nearest stat/TRV/smart bulb to the hub will connect to the next nearest devices and so on. Tado and Netatmo are two options whose TRVs are reasonably affordable. The Tado smart stat comes with the Hub, which then is available for Smart TRVs to be added on as required. Hub and TRVs can be bought as a kit, and will control the rads in a community heating system, (apartment blocks and the likes) where the hot water is flowing all the time but you need the stat to fire a boiler fed system.

dball

I have been watching this thread for at least 6 months and have tried to keep up with the new products and innovative and informative discussions here in this thread - Well done people - its a great read!

If i could ask a few questions and please offer any advice you can:

I live in a 4 bedroom house - it has about 7 radiators down stairs
& 5 rads upstairs,
The house is zoned into 2 - upstairs (landing area) and downstairs (Hallway - hallway also has the controls for heat timer and hot water).
Its an oil fired boiler feeding the house.

Recently we have decided to separate part of the downstairs and create a self contained apartment - airbnb plans

However as this separate part of the house has no thermostat and only 3 radiators what are my options.

I'm keen on the tado system as it seems to be the most convenient in terms of pricing with a rental option to get started,
I presume I ll have to do the whole house with tado eventually but my priorities are serving the airbnb part as there are no controls in this part of the house

But my questions are what do i need in terms of hardware

there are basic TVR s on all radiators in the house.
The thermostats are zoned upstairs and downstairs. hall and landing area

What would I need to create a new additional zone to allow future airbnb guests to control there own heat and hot water
on 3 radiators ( If i reduce this to one radiator who or what controls the 2 radiators that dont get new TVR's
or if i create a new zone do i need to get new TVRs on all rads?

The Bigger picture is to consider re zoning the whole house into 3 zones.
Existing 2 and add another zone - Or is this the only option?


Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

deezell

If you currently have 2 thermostats then you can heat the upstairs and down stairs independently. Switching these for smart stats will give you better control of the timing and temperature of these zones. I'm assuming you're putting all guests upstairs. Adding smart TRVs to three bedrooms will give these rooms independent control of their heating. They will call the boiler when turned up via the smart stat on the landing. Any other non smart TRVs in the upstairs zone will heat either when the upstairs landing stat calls for heat, or any of the 3 smart TRV beds calls for heat. You would want the landing and bathroom to be warm anyway if guests were in situ. The manual TRVs on these rads will prevent the landing, bathroom and the 4th bedroom from becoming too warm when guest bedrooms call the boiler via their smart TRVs.

Downstairs will be an independent zone as it currently is, generally controlled by the wall stat, manual or smart. If you need to seperate out the heating of some parts of downstairs, you can do this by adding some smart TRVs, and also by moving the location of the downstairs stat. This is easily achieved with a second smart stat and extension kit, so that the stat is connected wirelessly to the kit and can be relocated to the living area of the self contained part, while the public parts ( dining and hall?) can be temperature capped by their existing manual TRVs, or have smart TRVs added to call the zone and ensure that the reception area is never cold ( total no-no in the B&B game, trust me), while the dining is only heated at breakfast time via its smart TRV.

Total required, 2 smart stats, 5 smart TRVs and the extension kit. The kit will also give you timed control of hot water if your system has that as a seperate zone. Again, no hot water while you have guests will get you destroyed in reviews, so you need to make sure this is always available during occupancy, and not just dependent on the heating being on. This is not the 1970s, the days of penny pinching B&B matriarchs with the "Showers 10/-, Baths £1" signs are well gone!

micks_address

Hi folks,
We have Google home and phillips hue. Some tplink smart plugs to. Our gas boiler is being replaced soon with a viessmann condenser system boiler. We have one zone in that the boiler heats the water and rads all at the same time. We have no way to isolate and only heat water which is a pity. Not sure how easy it would be to change that given the existing plumbing.

Thinking of going with a nest thermostat and wondering if there will be any issues. We have a really old thermostat on the wall that I think may have been used for older oil installation. We wouldn't want the nest there anyway as we have stove in the room downstairs which would mean the rest of the house be cold. The stat wouldn't get a accurate reading. Thinking of having the nest on a stand in our bedroom for now. I suppose questions are would there be any issues with having nest with viessmann and would there be easy way to have stat control hot water and temp of rads separately?

Also is amazon best bet for nest? I'm concerned our plumber might not be technical enough to fit so are there companies that would supply and fit cheaper than buying separately?

We just signed up with board gas for gas and electricity.
Thanks,
Mick

micks_address

micks_address wrote: »

Hi folks,
We have Google home and phillips hue. Some tplink smart plugs to. Our gas boiler is being replaced soon with a viessmann condenser system boiler. We have one zone in that the boiler heats the water and rads all at the same time. We have no way to isolate and only heat water which is a pity. Not sure how easy it would be to change that given the existing plumbing.

Thinking of going with a nest thermostat and wondering if there will be any issues. We have a really old thermostat on the wall that I think may have been used for older oil installation. We wouldn't want the nest there anyway as we have stove in the room downstairs which would mean the rest of the house be cold. The stat wouldn't get a accurate reading. Thinking of having the nest on a stand in our bedroom for now. I suppose questions are would there be any issues with having nest with viessmann and would there be easy way to have stat control hot water and temp of rads separately?

Also is amazon best bet for nest? I'm concerned our plumber might not be technical enough to fit so are there companies that would supply and fit cheaper than buying separately?

We just signed up with board gas for gas and electricity.
Thanks,
Mick

Looks like electric Ireland will supply and install nest for 130 euro?

deezell

micks_address wrote: »

Looks like electric Ireland will supply and install nest for 130 euro?

Unfortunately they've just signed up to Bord gais. Bord gais are doing the hive smart stat free though. It has all the usual smart features, app, schedules, geolocation. It doesn't have the learning function of Nest or Tado, or the TRV option of Tado. Ugly looking compared to the nest or tado, but functional.
The Viessmann boiler you're installing has separate flow and returns for hw and central heating, with an inbuilt pump and diverter valve, so it depends on your current HW cylinder layout as to how much plumbing will be involved in connecting the new boiler to the system to achive seperate HW. The installer might just want to substitute for your old system and just use the heating flow and return and cap the separate HW ones, but you should insist on having both connected. With this done you can connect the stat to seperately control HW and heating. The nest stat ( or Hive or Tado) can be used to time the HW supply to the cylinder and to separately control the heating. Nest or Tado have OpenTherm connectors which can connect to the OpenTherm connectors on the boiler to give digital connection from boiler to stat, which may give access to higher level control such as modulated burning and HW temperature control and feedback.
I'd advise having the plumber inspect the install instruction for the boiler which I'm assuming is the Viessmann Vitodens 100W B1HC range. He can then inspect your system to see how it is currently plumbed and how much work is required to connect the flow/return to the HW cylinder directly from the boiler. He may recommend just adding a zone valve to the existing system and controlling that from the smart stat. The boiler wiring diagrams show this as an option. This is the installation instructions for this model;
https://viessmanndirect.co.uk/files//41f55e07-987c-4d32-a6e1-a5df0136110d/B1KC%20B1HC%20Installation%20and%20Servicing.pdf

micks_address

deezell wrote: »

Unfortunately they've just signed up to Bord gais. Bord gais are doing the hive smart stat free though. It has all the usual smart features, app, schedules, geolocation. It doesn't have the learning function of Nest or Tado, or the TRV option of Tado. Ugly looking compared to the nest or tado, but functional.
The Viessmann boiler you're installing has separate flow and returns for hw and central heating, with an inbuilt pump and diverter valve, so it depends on your current HW cylinder layout as to how much plumbing will be involved in connecting the new boiler to the system to achive seperate HW. The installer might just want to substitute for your old system and just use the heating flow and return and cap the separate HW ones, but you should insist on having both connected. With this done you can connect the stat to seperately control HW and heating. The nest stat ( or Hive or Tado) can be used to time the HW supply to the cylinder and to separately control the heating. Nest or Tado have OpenTherm connectors which can connect to the OpenTherm connectors on the boiler to give digital connection from boiler to stat, which may give access to higher level control such as modulated burning and HW temperature control and feedback.
I'd advise having the plumber inspect the install instruction for the boiler which I'm assuming is the Viessmann Vitodens 100W B1HC range. He can then inspect your system to see how it is currently plumbed and how much work is required to connect the flow/return to the HW cylinder directly from the boiler. He may recommend just adding a zone valve to the existing system and controlling that from the smart stat. The boiler wiring diagrams show this as an option. This is the installation instructions for this model;
https://viessmanndirect.co.uk/files//41f55e07-987c-4d32-a6e1-a5df0136110d/B1KC%20B1HC%20Installation%20and%20Servicing.pdf

I purchased nest on the electric Ireland Web site last night as a non existing customer for 130 including installation. I assume there's no problems no being a customer of theirs. Installation booked for March 9th. Want to have boiler sorted by then.
Thanks,
Mick

deezell

micks_address wrote: »

I purchased nest on the electric Ireland Web site last night as a non existing customer for 130 including installation. I assume there's no problems no being a customer of theirs. Installation booked for March 9th. Want to have boiler sorted by then.
Thanks,
Mick

Nice one. Cross your fingers till March 9th. If they try to stiff you for the full €350 you can get hive free from BG. The Nest wireless relay ( the heatlink box) has relays for both heating and HW, and is a direct wire in to the Viessmann assuming the installer connects the independent HW flow and return to the cylinder.

budhabob

micks_address wrote: »

I purchased nest on the electric Ireland Web site last night as a non existing customer for 130 including installation. I assume there's no problems no being a customer of theirs. Installation booked for March 9th. Want to have boiler sorted by then.
Thanks,
Mick

OH!!!! Did you not just move to them? or just bought the Nest completely separate?

fletch

I can't see them honouring it given the Nest is ~€250 to buy separately

budhabob

fletch wrote: »

I can't see them honouring it given the Nest is ~€250 to buy separately

That's my thinking. I have nest cameras, so kinda want nest heating controls, but with Bord Gais at present.

micks_address

Bought from here:

https://shop.electricireland.ie/products/install-detail/nest-thermostat

They ask a question is you are an existing customer to which I said no...  It did ask for my mprn number which I put in..

I was curious myself but there is nothing I seen that you have to be a customer to avail of the offer.. I have a confirmation email with appointment and payment details etc

fletch

Keep us posted on how you get on

micks_address

micks_address wrote: »

Bought from here:

https://shop.electricireland.ie/products/install-detail/nest-thermostat

They ask a question is you are an existing customer to which I said no...  It did ask for my mprn number which I put in..

I was curious myself but there is nothing I seen that you have to be a customer to avail of the offer.. I have a confirmation email with appointment and payment details etc

mind you it does say beside the big switch button
Offer for new Electric Ireland customers
Nest Thermostat is only available to Electric Ireland customers.  Switch to us today to get your Nest Thermostat
Seems stupid to allow you order ill say nothing...

tweek84

Excuse my ignorance but are Electric Ireland claiming the SEAI grant for installing the Nest thermostat?
It says on Energia website "Previous upgrades to your boiler or heating system carried out by you or previous occupiers may render your home ineligible for Netatmo under SEAI’s Better Energy Homes programme guidelines."

They are making alot of money for installing

deezell

micks_address wrote: »

mind you it does say beside the big switch button
Offer for new Electric Ireland customers
Nest Thermostat is only available to Electric Ireland customers.  Switch to us today to get your Nest Thermostat
Seems stupid to allow you order ill say nothing...

The offer extends to switching customers afaik, so perhaps they're treating you as a new customer. When they go to BG to terminate BG will say you are at the start of a new contract and refuse. Perhaps your MPRN indicated you were still with your pre BG supplier as you've just switched, and were entitled to change. They'll definitely try to set you up as a new customer.

tweek84

deezell wrote: »

The offer extends to switching customers afaik, so perhaps they're treating you as a new customer. When they go to BG to terminate BG will say you are at the start of a new contract and refuse. Perhaps your MPRN indicated you were still with your pre BG supplier as you've just switched, and were entitled to change. They'll definitely try to set you up as a new customer.

MPRN is used to claim the SEAI grant they probably won't mind that you don't switch provider they still claim the 600 euro and you pay them for the nest thermostat:eek: 730euro in the bank

micks_address

tweek84 wrote: »

deezell wrote: »

The offer extends to switching customers afaik, so perhaps they're treating you as a new customer. When they go to BG to terminate BG will say you are at the start of a new contract and refuse. Perhaps your MPRN indicated you were still with your pre BG supplier as you've just switched, and were entitled to change. They'll definitely try to set you up as a new customer.

MPRN is used to claim the SEAI grant they probably won't mind that you don't switch provider they still claim the 600 euro and you pay them for the nest thermostat:eek: 730euro in the bank

I'll keep you posted

micks_address

deezell wrote: »

micks_address wrote: »

mind you it does say beside the big switch button
Offer for new Electric Ireland customers
Nest Thermostat is only available to Electric Ireland customers.  Switch to us today to get your Nest Thermostat
Seems stupid to allow you order ill say nothing...

The offer extends to switching customers afaik, so perhaps they're treating you as a new customer. When they go to BG to terminate BG will say you are at the start of a new contract and refuse. Perhaps your MPRN indicated you were still with your pre BG supplier as you've just switched, and were entitled to change. They'll definitely try to set you up as a new customer.

I'm not sure if they could initiate a switch.. Surely they would need something more in terms of consent from me? I used to be electric Ireland so probably still on their system

fletch

tweek84 wrote: »

MPRN is used to claim the SEAI grant they probably won't mind that you don't switch provider they still claim the 600 euro and you pay them for the nest thermostat:eek: 730euro in the bank

Can I claim 600 to get a Nest installed? I could buy one for €250 and get a plumber to install so and it would cost me less than the €130 that EI are charging?