Home heating automation

raytaxi

The cylinder I have is Kingspan highly insulated one, has places to drop in stats rather than a wrap around one.
How would I start to wiring wise changing to nest ? Motorised valves are eph, in fairness to them the whole system seems to be plug and play.

deezell

ccull123 wrote: »

Apologies if this has been asked a thousand times before but totally confused. I have a gas heating system with three zones. Upstairs, downstairs and water. All of it is controlled by eph heating app. I want to move over to nest and am wondering is it an awkward thing to do?

Would there be much cost involved? Any help/advice would be much appreciated

Youll need two nest stat kits, about €240-250 each. Tado or Hive kit will be more affordable. Hive ch +hw kit plus mutizone kit for 2nd stat about 260 self installed all in. Enquire from here for installed deals also.http://www.heatmerchants.ie/z/hive-smart-controls-energy-saving-credits/629

deezell

raytaxi wrote: »

The cylinder I have is Kingspan highly insulated one, has places to drop in stats rather than a wrap around one.
How would I start to wiring wise changing to nest ? Motorised valves are eph, in fairness to them the whole system seems to be plug and play.

You could just wire your existing nest back in to control the main living zone, use the eph for the upstairs zone and hw timing/temp. Theres not a lot to be gained by fiddling with HW on off times, especially with a deep insulated cylinder. Just time it to always on and the stat will keep it topped up. Very little savings to be had by limiting its heating times, the cooling losses are so small. Maybe over a two week holiday you might save a euro by knocking it off.
While the nest could give you app control of the HW timing, its not something you'd need, again harfly worth the hassle of adding it to the eph HW heating setup.

Wiring wise, the eph has 3 zone valve outputs, so any of these can be disconnected and the wires going to the zone valves connected to a nest heating terminal on the heatlink box, with a live wired to the nest common. If you want to retain the eph HW wireless timing leave it be, or else to use eph wireless stat with nest timer, connect the eph HW output to the nest HW con input, then the nest HW call for heat output to the HW zone valve.

reignschaos

Don't know if it was just me, but did anyone else have their Tado devices go offline this evening?

@Deezell I've completed my testing and want to confirm some points.

Answering your Points
You assumed my two motorised values are for CH, one for each zone - Definitely one for each zone (upstairs, downstairs) as I had them replaced about 2 years ago.

HW is only heated when the boiler is fired by either zone stat - correct.

Deduced that the two outputs from the Grasslin were being used for two CH zones, and not 1 CH and 1 HW - doesn't look like it based on tests.

Test Results
Stat 1/2 On = I made them call for heat

CH Off - HW Off - Stat 1 Off - Stat 2 Off = Boiler Off
CH On - HW Off - Stat 1 On - Stat 2 Off = Boiler fired
CH On - HW Off - Stat 1 Off - Stat 2 On = Boiler fired
CH Off - HW On - Stat 1 On - Stat 2 Off = Boiler Off
CH Off - HW On - Stat 1 Off - Stat 2 On = Boiler Off

Based on the above (and from what I'm learning) the CH is powering both zones.

The only thing so far, that I've been able to determine, by turning the HW Switch On does is turns the HW led on.

Therefore the question seems to still stand, where is the HW output wire going?

Wiring
You mentioned that the brown wires from 3 & 4 can be wired to 4. Minor note, they are black wires. And the reason I say that is if you take another look at the wiring, there is a black wire connected to the N block in addition to 2 neutrals. Wiring Pic Maybe one of the wires is wired wrong!!

Good Point
Now, there may be a plumbing issue with this, in that you can have a situation where the boiler is firing to pump heated water to the cylinder when both CH motorised valves are closed. If the TCV closes when the cylinder is heated, but the timer is still on, the boiler has no flow path for it's pumped heated water. It's own internal stat will cut in when it's internal water temperature rises as a result of this, but it would be better if the live HW call for heat from rhe grasslin to the boiler was terminated by an electrical cylinder stat set lower than the TCV, instead of or in tandem with choking the flow with theTCV. This would be better practice, as a boiler should not be called unless there is at least an open valve or gravity circuit or a small bypass between flow and return on the boiler.

In relation to the above, in summer time, to get hot water I turn off all my rads and then i turn up the stats to their highest. Some days based on temperatures I just don't get hot water. In relation to by pass (not sure if its the same thing), all my rads have TRV's except the one in the downstairs bathroom and that rad is on throughout the year. My understanding is that's the by-pass radiator.

Tado Extension Kit
I plan to remove the Grasslin and install this. As mentioned I have it ready to install.

Any additional words of wisdom / course of action you think I should embark on?

I really appreciate you taking the time in responding.

Cheers

deezell

Yes, just locate the tado ext kit near the boiler or the two zone valves. You just need to connect the ext kit HW call for heat terminal 3 to the boiler call for heat, which is currently called from the zone valves, grey or orange wire from them usually. All 3 live calls are just tied together.

j_lennon18

reignschaos wrote: »

Don't know if it was just me, but did anyone else have their Tado devices go offline this evening?
...

I was having very strange connectivity issues with Hive, Tado and my Plex server going offline yesterday from around 3pm. I restarted everything at around 8pm which seemed to have helped but in my Hive app some devices would go offline/online randomly. And my Tado radiator valves were still offline when I went to bed at 11pm but everything is looking fine this morning.

I was thinking it was something with my Internet/Router (Virgin Media) or a more global internet/DNS/DDoS/DataCenter issue but I couldn't find any reports online. Unless it was somehow related to Facebook messenger been offline last night and with boards.ie offline this morning.

At least I know I was not alone since you also had issues so I probably don't have to worry about it been a local fault with my devices.

dball

in fairness to Tado. I received 3 emails last night about the service being slow/ being worked on.

I did register a fault last week on the tado website and as a result I seem to be on a new mailing list - when there is a fault they send out an email and update it regularly.

Problem was all fixed this morning anyway

http://status.tado.com/incidents/cwz25p2d9v3w

somedood

I have this3-zone-heating-control-pack from EPH and would like to replace the thermostats for wifi ones. Not looking at EPH but more likely something like Floureon which seems to be a basic switch using 240v.





I can put the timer on constant for the two zones and control everything from the thermostats.

Would that work or am I missing something?
I presume the mechanical thermostat is just a signal to the boiler and valve to activate but I'm not sure if the voltage is correct.

limnam

dball wrote: »

in fairness to Tado. I received 3 emails last night about the service being slow/ being worked on.

I did register a fault last week on the tado website and as a result I seem to be on a new mailing list - when there is a fault they send out an email and update it regularly.

Problem was all fixed this morning anyway

Yeah I was impacted too


Would like to get on that notification email list

Clareman

I got the Netamo installed by Energia recently, it's great, you get a "box" which is a thermostat and if the temp goes below that it turns on the head, awful handy for me cause I have a stove in the house which heats downstairs but upstairs can be cold, I just leave the box in the bedroom and it keeps the bedrooms nice a cozy so it's not a shock when we go up to bed in the evenings. Being able to set a proper schedule for when you're at work is very handy, it's awkard for me cause the wife's hours changes from week to week but that's a small change.

deezell

somedood wrote: »

I have this3-zone-heating-control-pack from EPH and would like to replace the thermostats for wifi ones. Not looking at EPH but more likely something like Floureon which seems to be a basic switch using 240v.





I can put the timer on constant for the two zones and control everything from the thermostats.

Would that work or am I missing something?
I presume the mechanical thermostat is just a signal to the boiler and valve to activate but I'm not sure if the voltage is correct.

They seem to check out. They have relay switching, 6 event per day programming, I presume selectable temperature per event, and can be accessed via an app. Just to be clear they are wired in, not wireless. They are a wall mount replacement for your current stats however...
If you current stats are passive, and only have 2 wires, Live in and switched live out, you will need an extra Neutral line to the stat as these are mains powered. Most smart wired wall stats are battery operated, so they can replace 2 wire existing stats.

somedood

deezell wrote: »

They seem to check out. They have relay switching, 6 event per day programming, I presume selectable temperature per event, and can be accessed via an app. Just to be clear they are wired in, not wireless. They are a wall mount replacement for your current stats however...
If you current stats are passive, and only have 2 wires, Live in and switched live out, you will need an extra Neutral line to the stat as these are mains powered. Most smart wired wall stats are battery operated, so they can replace 2 wire existing stats.

Thanks for the response.
I've checked and there's a neutral wire in behind the stat so it seems the sparks future proofed the installation or it was convenient to do it that way.

I'm going to link the Floureon stats to openhab and control it from there.

deezell

somedood wrote: »

Thanks for the response.
I've checked and there's a neutral wire in behind the stat so it seems the sparks future proofed the installation or it was convenient to do it that way.

I'm going to link the Floureon stats to openhab and control it from there.

Read this before you buy
https://hackcorrelation.blogspot.com/2017/11/floureon-byc17gh3-thermostat-teardown.html
Inaccurate clock would be intolerable. I've read openhab blogs on linking to this, are you sure its been cracked yet? Their range of smart plugs have alexa connectivity, but
I see nothing reharding this wall stat.

somedood

deezell wrote: »

Read this before you buy
https://hackcorrelation.blogspot.com/2017/11/floureon-byc17gh3-thermostat-teardown.html
Inaccurate clock would be intolerable. I've read openhab blogs on linking to this, are you sure its been cracked yet? Their range of smart plugs have alexa connectivity, but
I see nothing reharding this wall stat.

I found this electronic-heating-thermostat-reverse-engineering-beok-floureon-decdeal and it seems to send info via mqtt so I may take the chance on it and see if 1 works. I'll let the thread know if it works anyway as I'm sure it may of interest to others.

reignschaos

@limnam, @j_lennon18 , glad it wasn't just me having the issue, I spent ages, plugging in and out cables, re-booting the router etc etc.

Based on @dball link you can subscribe to these Tado incidents by signing up at this link

reignschaos

deezell wrote: »

Yes, just locate the tado ext kit near the boiler or the two zone valves. You just need to connect the ext kit HW call for heat terminal 3 to the boiler call for heat, which is currently called from the zone valves, grey or orange wire from them usually. All 3 live calls are just tied together.

@Deezell, If I understand you correctly I just take an additional feed from the gray or orange wire and hook it into Terminal 3 (Hot Water On) on the Tado Extension Kit.

I've just finished pulling apart the hot press (her indoors is going to mad :-) )
and opened up the cable box. I have both colour wires available, see pictures below. I can not see any name on my Zone values to look for manual etc.

I've gotten this far without killing myself or burning down the house, any idea which of the wiring to use for the feed?

Also, I assume it doesn't matter from which connection block I take the feed from? (there is a connection block for each zone).

Wiring Pic
Heating Value Zone Pic

deezell

reignschaos wrote: »

@Deezell, If I understand you correctly I just take an additional feed from the gray or orange wire and hook it into Terminal 3 (Hot Water On) on the Tado Extension Kit.

I've just finished pulling apart the hot press (her indoors is going to mad :-) )
and opened up the cable box. I have both colour wires available, see pictures below. I can not see any name on my Zone values to look for manual etc.

I've gotten this far without killing myself or burning down the house, any idea which of the wiring to use for the feed?

Wiring Pic
Heating Value Zone Pic

Do you have a phase tester screwdiver? The grey and orange wires are the connections to the valve relay. Live will go in on one and switched live to fire the boiler out on the other. Whichever one goes live only when its zone is on is tye correct one, the other will be connected to permanent live.

reignschaos

deezell wrote: »

Do you have a phase tester screwdiver? The grey and orange wires are the connections to the valve relay. Live will go in on one and switched live to fire the boiler out on the other. Whichever one goes live only when its zone is on is tye correct one, the other will be connected to permanent live.

I do indeed.

deezell

reignschaos wrote: »

I do indeed.

Good. Once you've identified the call for heat from either zone (they would be joined together to both go to the boiler, so have both zones off to see which grey or orange wire on the zone valve you're testing is permanently live and which wire is off. Turning on either zone will make the output wire live and the boiler will fire. This is what you connect to terminal3 of the ext kit, and it must also have the jumper in position 2 to configure it as a switched live ch/hw relay. You wont need the wireless CH primary stat contact as you've hard wired in the stats. See pic below.

deezell

Also, those diagrams on the back of tado ext kit refer to the baseplate, not the pins above the pics which are obviously turned about when you put the ext kit on to the baseplate.

deezell

Copied over from Bargain alerts thread;

"Netatmo have 25% off all items"

https://shop.netatmo.com/gbp_en/#energy

€135 for smart stat and hub kit, €60 each for add on TRVs

G rock

Have been lurking in this thread for a while, and as a result, am considering tado.

That netatmo deal looks good though, but not sure how it stacks up to tado?

Interlocked system with three motorised valves for heat, and a Hw zone. I was leaning towards tado for two heating zones to replace traditional stats (3rd is just for attic rooms), and leaving the existing four channel timer as it is for the HW and 3rd zone.

deezell

G rock wrote: »

Have been lurking in this thread for a while, and as a result, am considering tado.

That netatmo deal looks good though, but not sure how it stacks up to tado?

Interlocked system with three motorised valves for heat, and a Hw zone. I was leaning towards tado for two heating zones to replace traditional stats (3rd is just for attic rooms), and leaving the existing four channel timer as it is for the HW and 3rd zone.

Netatmo don't have a HW relay in their design, just room stats and TRVs. No biggie, just leave HW and attic as you said on controller. Two Netatmo stats with wireless receivers, €270. If you dont have wall stats back to your controller, these are ideal, wire the receivers at the controller, put the stats anywhere.
Tado v3 starter kit at black friday amazon price of £129, additional stat is £119 full price. So £248, near enough the same as Netatmo. Stats have to be wired in place of original manual stats, a max of one wireless with optional ext kit. A pita if you were just using controller timing and dont have existing stat wiring. Tado TRVs also down to £59 on Amazon.

G rock

Thanks for that deezell.

Stats are wired back to controller-one in an upstairs bedroom, one in kitchen

Tado appeals since I think I could get wider control with the trvs, but I think I'm gonna need a few of them for each zone, in addition to getting some mechanical trvs on rads in other, less "critical" rooms.

Hmm, could get expensive!

deezell

G rock wrote: »

Thanks for that deezell.

Stats are wired back to controller-one in an upstairs bedroom, one in kitchen

Tado appeals since I think I could get wider control with the trvs, but I think I'm gonna need a few of them for each zone, in addition to getting some mechanical trvs on rads in other, less "critical" rooms.

Hmm, could get expensive!

The most expensive part of TRVs will be if you have to change the actual valve bodies on the radiators from standard rotary screw type to the the pin plunger type required for TRVs. If you already have mechanical TRVs, the valve bodies will do. If your rad valves are rotary, it could be costly in labour per radiator, the plunger valve itself only costing a few euro.

G rock

Plain ol rotary valves on all of them!

punisher5112

I have a netatamo unit I used in my rental but will soon have my own and thinking should I opt for something different as the house is quite big and was thinking of having up and down separate plus hw.

What's the best value ???

deezell

punisher5112 wrote: »

I have a netatamo unit I used in my rental but will soon have my own and thinking should I opt for something different as the house is quite big and was thinking of having up and down separate plus hw.

What's the best value ???

You'll have to first see if the house is plumbed for zones, and if the HW is independent of CH. So many installations are one zone on/off, all or nothing. Read back a few pages to see posters with all types of basic systems, no stats, a single notch timer if you're lucky. You can't zone with tech alone (catchy!). You may have to get some physical plumbing done, zone valves etc. That will make the cost of a couple of stats and a HW relay look trivial.

punisher5112

deezell wrote: »

You'll have to first see if the house is plumbed for zones, and if the HW is independent of CH. So many installations are one zone on/off, all or nothing. Read back a few pages to see posters with all types of basic systems, no stats, a single notch timer if you're lucky. You can't zone with tech alone (catchy!). You may have to get some physical plumbing done, zone valves etc. That will make the cost of a couple of stats and a HW relay look trivial.

Thanks, what I meant is what do yee reckon would be most economical for down the line as in I can do these changes no issue.

I believe there is hw and ch I don't believe there are dual zone as in up or down.

deezell

punisher5112 wrote: »

Thanks, what I meant is what do yee reckon would be most economical for down the line as in I can do these changes no issue.

I believe there is hw and ch I don't believe there are dual zone as in up or down.

When there is only CH and HW, you need to check if they can be fully or semi independently selected, i.e., HW only, CH only, HW and CH. Gravity fed cylinders will give HW only by using a stat to turn on and off the circulation pump. With this setup you always have HW when the boiler is firing, regardless of CH being on or off. Some installations will use a timer to turn the boiler on and off at intervals, then the stat will turn on the CH pump during those intervals. Some eph style timer controllers with 2 zone outputs use the HW output to fire the boiler for both HW and CH programmed intervals, while the CH output is used only to power the pump. Some of these controllers have a mode switch to go from the above gravity mode to pumped or valved mode, where each output reflects its own timer.
Tado stat and ext kit can be configured to do gravity mode like these controllers. Independent zone controllers will need a relay box to combine zone outputs to a single switched live to fire the boiler. The nest heatlink box with Volt free two pole relays can be wired in a manner to also do gravity fed HW control
You can pick a smart stat system straight away and it can be used to replace an existing wall stat for CH, and HW will heat whatever way it did before. If CH had to be on to get HW, this won't change. You'll have to figure out what you have before chosing a stat, as you may need extra relays or boxes to add the extra zone control, and some stats/hw relays are better equipped for this than others. If the existing system has an off boiler timer like and EPH, this can be used to maintain HW timing with a smart stat taking over CH timing.
What is most economical for you will depend on whats already there.