Home heating automation

GarIT

kave2 wrote: »

I read that some of these smart thermostats require internet to work locally. Is that the case with Hive and Drayton?

Typically without internet they are dumb thermostats so that could be what you read means.

L1011

OffalyMedic wrote: »

Getting a Nest installed today with E.I. small house only 75m2 do I need trv or with stat being in middle room suffice?

It'll effectively replace your existing stat; or give you a single stat if you didn't have one before. Seen 1980s installs with stats and early 00s retrofits without so it depends hugely.

You aren't meant to have your stat in a room with a TRV as it rather defeats the purpose.

deezell

kave2 wrote: »

I read that some of these smart thermostats require internet to work locally. Is that the case with Hive and Drayton?

It depends on the software model that the developers use. If all the intelligence is local, then the internet connection is only used for app access. Judging by he installation instructions for the Drayton Wiser, the stats and trvs are connected to the hub with the hub acting initially as a wifi acess point. I'd assume if you did nothing else, the system would work locally. The last step in wiser install is to switch the hub over as a client of your home Wi-Fi, enabling internet access by the app.
With Tado, it was not possible on V2 to control anything without internet access. I understand that with V3, the bridge device is recognised as a smart home device, in particular by Apple homekit, and this can work within your home network if the ouside internet connection is lost

duffman13

Quick one for anyone with Netatmo installed, how do you just turn on the boiler to heat just hot water or can I not actually do it?

I've no TRVs on any of the radiators, can I just stick Netatmo smart ones straight on or am I going to need new radiators. They are all 30ish years old, I'm thinking of buying TRVs as the house heats fairly differently in different rooms

deezell

duffman13 wrote: »

Quick one for anyone with Netatmo installed, how do you just turn on the boiler to heat just hot water or can I not actually do it?

I've no TRVs on any of the radiators, can I just stick Netatmo smart ones straight on or am I going to need new radiators. They are all 30ish years old, I'm thinking of buying TRVs as the house heats fairly differently in different rooms

Netatmo doesn't do HW control. If your previous system control had a means of selecting HW only, ( 2 zone controller, hw/ ch switch on the boiler), then assuming this is still in place you should use this. If you couldn't previously heat HW without CH, then that won't have changed.
Re TRVs, you will need the correct valves on the rads to mount TRVs, smart or manual. You probably have old screw down valves. Not a trivial plumbing job to change, but if you are considering new rads, then it will cost nothing extra to put TRV compatible valve bodies on one end instead of rotary. You can then add manual or smart heads as you wish.

duffman13

deezell wrote: »

Netatmo doesn't do HW control. If your previous system control had a means of selecting HW only, ( 2 zone controller, hw/ ch switch on the boiler), then assuming this is still in place you should use this. If you couldn't previously heat HW without CH, then that won't have changed.
Re TRVs, you will need the correct valves on the rads to mount TRVs, smart or manual. You probably have old screw down valves. Not a trivial plumbing job to change, but if you are considering new rads, then it will cost nothing extra to put TRV compatible valve bodies on one end instead of rotary. You can then add manual or smart heads as you wish.

Thanks, that makes sense

randombar

I'm moving from Nest back to Hive.

Found my heating bill was much higher with the nest unfortunately.

The lack of a boost button drove me mad too.

Soooo have two nest controllers for sale if anyone is interested

Roen

Just a quick update, Hive are now working on a TRV. I think their h1 2019 is a bit optimistic.

https://hivehome.uservoice.com/forums/223103-product-ideas/suggestions/4969272-wireless-radiator-thermostat-valves

I currently have 3 zones; downstairs, upstairs and HW on a gas boiler. I have Trv’s in all rooms except the hall downstairs as this has a thermostat on the wall. Trvs in all rooms upstairs except the bathrooms ( I like them toasty) and the master bedroom as this has a thermostat too. Controller is by the boiler in the kitchen. What is the best smart system for this set up. In an ideal world I’d just like to make the controller smart and leave the stats as is. Still want to keep the three zones.

randombar

Roen wrote: »

Just a quick update, Hive are now working on a TRV. I think their h1 2019 is a bit optimistic.

https://hivehome.uservoice.com/forums/223103-product-ideas/suggestions/4969272-wireless-radiator-thermostat-valves

Also the historic raw data you can get from Hive is excellent in fairness.

deezell

MAXFANTANA wrote: »

I currently have 3 zones; downstairs, upstairs and HW on a gas boiler. I have Trv’s in all rooms except the hall downstairs as this has a thermostat on the wall. Trvs in all rooms upstairs except the bathrooms ( I like them toasty) and the master bedroom as this has a thermostat too. Controller is by the boiler in the kitchen. What is the best smart system for this set up. In an ideal world I’d just like to make the controller smart and leave the stats as is. Still want to keep the three zones.

Two Tado stats plus extension kit for HW, or two Hives, one with HW receiver, or best value at the mo is the drayton wiser Kit 3, 2 stats, HW control, almost all the smarts of Tado and Nest, and can integrate smart TRVs if you decide to upgrade any. Nest stats are very slick, tho some dont like them. You'd need 2 full nest kits, pricey, but four posts back there's 2 for sale.....
Maybe you can blag a free CH stat plus HW control on one of the power company deals, then just buy the extra one yourself for the simpler CH only install

Calibos

GaryCocs wrote: »

Also the historic raw data you can get from Hive is excellent in fairness.

Are you talking about the temp info available for Today, Yesterday, Last Week, Last month etc? Or is there Hive or hacked scripts to access more info than the app shows? I'd love to know exactly how long each of my zones are on during the day.

Thrilled about the TRV news. Upstairs Zone thermostat alone not great because in one location it gets rising heat from downstairs and stays off most of the time and leaves the cooler end of the first floor too cool. If I move the thermostat to the cooler end of the first floor, the upstairs zone is on more often but the warmer end gets too hot. The secondfloor attic conversion is always either too cold or too hot no matter where the thermostat is. Can't wait for accurate individual room temp control with Hive Smart TRV's.


Any word on Hive Lightswitches I wonder. I know they do bulbs but the selection is limited as it is for compatible smartbulbs. A Hive switch would mean I could use whatever bulb I wanted with the smart functionality....and not worry about my 2ft thick external walls blocking the wifi signal to the bulbs I have outside!!

randombar

Calibos wrote: »

Are you talking about the temp info available for Today, Yesterday, Last Week, Last month etc? Or is there Hive or hacked scripts to access more info than the app shows? I'd love to know exactly how long each of my zones are on during the day.

API to get at all the raw data if you felt like tinkering:

http://www.smartofthehome.com/2016/05/hive-rest-api-v6/

reignschaos

Quick one for those with Tado, Santa was kind to me this year and left me some Tado TRV's. I have them installed and Tado have completed their configuration (if you get Tado TRV's you need to contact Tado and get them to configure the TRVs to whichever of your Smart Thermostats that you wish the TRV to go through to ask for heat), it can not be done from the the User end...that bit got me), anyhow all sorted now.

2 queries, I have TRVs for all my rooms downstairs which used to be controlled by an existing Downstairs Smart Thermostat. Now that the room with the Smart Thermostat has a TRV , what should I set the Smart Thermostat too? Off, On High?

When I call for heat in any of my TRV rooms the boiler fires for a few minutes then shuts off, then on again for another few mins and off again, repeat, wash, rinse. The room has not reached its room temp before the boiler is turning off? Any ideas why? This may relate to how I should configure the downstairs ST (might be two birds with one stone :-) ), otherwise any ideas?

Also I tried to set the TRV temp thats in the room as my Downstairs Smart Thermostat temp but that wont save due to some sort of error, I have a call logged with Tado, just thought I'd mention it.

deezell

reignschaos wrote: »

......
2 queries, I have TRVs for all my rooms downstairs which used to be controlled by an existing Downstairs Smart Thermostat. Now that the room with the Smart Thermostat has a TRV , what should I set the Smart Thermostat too? Off, On High?

When you have a smart TRV in the same room as it's general zone stat, and assuming that TRV has it's own distinct zone (say, Hallway), you should be able to configure the measuring device for the TRV as its calling stat, the main downstairs stat. The TRV effectively becomes a slave valve for the stat, which is correct as it's in the same room. What happens then is that the main stat will open the downstairs zone valve and fire the boiler when any downstairs TRV requests it, while keeping it's slave TRV closed until the main stat itself falls below target temperature.

When I call for heat in any of my TRV rooms the boiler fires for a few minutes then shuts off, then on again for another few mins and off again, repeat, wash, rinse. The room has not reached its room temp before the boiler is turning off? Any ideas why? This may relate to how I should configure the downstairs ST (might be two birds with one stone :-) ), otherwise any ideas?

If you are only opening a single TRV in a zone, or in both zones, there is insufficient flow through one rad to take away all the heated water from the boiler, so the boiler will cycle on and off as the cooled water from that single rad is returned to it. The boilers own limit stat kicks in, but the circulation pumps will still be running. If multiple TRVs are open this should not be so obvious, though the tado will simulate modulation when a stat is close to target temperature to avoid overshoot.

Also I tried to set the TRV temp thats in the room as my Downstairs Smart Thermostat temp but that wont save due to some sort of error, I have a call logged with Tado, just thought I'd mention it.

Do you mean you tried to change the temperature measuring device for the co-located TRV to the downstairs smart stat, which I have suggested, or are you referring to setting up a temperature schedule for the TRV? It's also possible to add TRVS as devices directly into an existing stat zone. These TRVs then just use the temperature schedule of the main stat as their reference afaik, so you can't set them independently. This is another way of contolling co-located TRVs without conflict, as the zone and all its devices use the main stat as the measuring device. Similarly, if a room has 2 or more rads, you only create a zone for one and add the others to it, nominating one as the measuring device.

reignschaos

deezell wrote: »

When you have a smart TRV in the same room as it's general zone stat, and assuming that TRV has it's own distinct zone (say, Hallway), you should be able to configure the measuring device for the TRV as its calling stat, the main downstairs stat. The TRV effectively becomes a slave valve for the stat, which is correct as it's in the same room. What happens then is that the main stat will open the downstairs zone valve and fire the boiler when any downstairs TRV requests it, while keeping it's slave TRV closed until the main stat itself falls below target temperature.

This is where I think there is a bug. The zone stat is called Downstairs and the TRV is in the zone called Hallway. I go to my app setting and click on Hallway and then I try to change the Measuring Device to the Main stat but fails. Comes up with "Well that wasn't supposed to happen" :-)

Once this is fixed, then as you say, this TRV is a slave to the main stat and the main stat controls the temp for that room and then it all makes sense.

deezell wrote: »

If you are only opening a single TRV in a zone, or in both zones, there is insufficient flow through one rad to take away all the heated water from the boiler, so the boiler will cycle on and off as the cooled water from that single rad is returned to it. The boilers own limit stat kicks in, but the circulation pumps will still be running. If multiple TRVs are open this should not be so obvious, though the tado will simulate modulation when a stat is close to target temperature to avoid overshoot.

That seems to be exactly whats happening, only happens if I attempt to heat a single room ie kitchen in the morning for 10 minutes to take the nip out of the air.

deezell

reignschaos wrote: »

This is where I think there is a bug. The zone stat is called Downstairs and the TRV is in the zone called Hallway. I go to my app setting and click on Hallway and then I try to change the Measuring Device to the Main stat but fails. Comes up with "Well that wasn't supposed to happen" :-)

Once this is fixed, then as you say, this TRV is a slave to the main stat and the main stat controls the temp for that room and then it all makes sense.


That seems to be exactly whats happening, only happens if I attempt to heat a single room ie kitchen in the morning for 10 minutes to take the nip out of the air.

That's odd alright. You could try the alternative of deleting the Hallway zone and just adding the TRV into the Downstairs main stat's zone as an additional device, where it will operate to the same schedule as Downstairs (it should be anyway), it's effectively the same thing, Downstairs stat stays as measuring device.

GarIT

Just for one thing you mentioned Tado uses what they claim is a special super scientific secret algorithm to decide when to turn your heating on and off.

If your desire temperature is higher than the current termperature Tado will work out the most efficient way to increase the temperature rather than the quickest. Sometimes that involves turning the boiler off and letting the heat come out of the now hot radiators.

It also knows how much more the house heats up after the boiler is turned off. If you set the temperature to 18, it might turn off at 17.5 knowing the hot radiators will heat the room to 18 without the boiler.

robinph

Have had Tado setup for a month now and it's working OK for me with keeping the unused rooms turned off and only heating the one needed room during the day. It's claiming to have saved me 32.5% on the heating over the last month, which is clearly rubbish as it doesn't know that previous to that the heating would have been totally off all day before I was working from home so our bills will certainly have actually increased. If it manages to reduce that increase a bit then that's all good though.

It does seem to turn on the heating very early though when it's trying to reach the set temperature in the morning, probably reaching the required temperature at least two hours before I have programmed it to reach that temperature. Is there anything that can be done to make that more intelligent, or do I just have to wait longer for it to learn?

deezell

robinph wrote: »

Have had Tado setup for a month now and it's working OK for me with keeping the unused rooms turned off and only heating the one needed room during the day. It's claiming to have saved me 32.5% on the heating over the last month, which is clearly rubbish as it doesn't know that previous to that the heating would have been totally off all day before I was working from home so our bills will certainly have actually increased. If it manages to reduce that increase a bit then that's all good though.

It does seem to turn on the heating very early though when it's trying to reach the set temperature in the morning, probably reaching the required temperature at least two hours before I have programmed it to reach that temperature. Is there anything that can be done to make that more intelligent, or do I just have to wait longer for it to learn?

It's savings would probably be based on what a similar heating schedule without individual smart TRVs and schedules would cost.
You must have preheating turned on in the schedule. Select the zone schedule/settings ( cog in top right) and turn off early start. Its unlikly that early start would start and reach a schedule temperature 2 hours prior to the actual setting. Check your schedule carefully. What temperature/ duration is set prior to the required morning setting? How many pumped zones in your system, and how many stat/TRV zones on your app, ordo you have some TRVs? Any TRV that calls the boiler will cause heating of non TRV rads on the same pumped zone, so though you may a stat schedule for all rads in general, a TRV schedule on one rad in this zone will supply all rads, not just the one with the TRV.

antodeco

Anybody using the hub controller? Signed up for the free install and trying to figure out what the catch is!

robinph

deezell wrote: »

It's savings would probably be based on what a similar heating schedule without individual smart TRVs and schedules would cost.
You must have preheating turned on in the schedule. Select the zone schedule/settings ( cog in top right) and turn off early start. Its unlikly that early start would start and reach a schedule temperature 2 hours prior to the actual setting. Check your schedule carefully. What temperature/ duration is set prior to the required morning setting? How many pumped zones in your system, and how many stat/TRV zones on your app, ordo you have some TRVs? Any TRV that calls the boiler will cause heating of non TRV rads on the same pumped zone, so though you may a stat schedule for all rads in general, a TRV schedule on one rad in this zone will supply all rads, not just the one with the TRV.

Just had a look this morning and it turned on the heating 5 hours early, reaching/ exceeding the required temperature 4 hours early!

I've got 4 rooms with smart TRVs installed. The Tado thermostat unit is in the kitchen, but I have that room set to requiring a temp of 10 as the heater in there cannot be controlled, it just blows hot air whenever there is any heat running through the pipes and keeps plenty warm enough like that.

The office, which was requesting heat at 3:30 this morning, is set to early start and be at temperature (22) for 8:45. It's then set to 10 from 5pm in the evening and all weekend.
Just checked what the bedroom TRV was doing last night and it is set to have reached temperature earlier and had been requesting heat earlier than the office was, but it reached it's target only 3 hour early. It is set to a higher temperature overnight than the office is though so there is some intelligence going on there as it had a higher starting temperature and knew it didn't have as much work to do.

The system should know after a couple of days though that it can heat particular rooms quicker than it first thought and not be starting so early. If I can figure out that rooms A and B only need 30 minutes to reach temperature and C and D need 45 minutes then I may as well just manually do that through the programming the schedule in the app.

reignschaos

Another Tado Query

One of my Tado Thermostats isn't on the latest firmware and Tado are trying to resolve this. However in their correspondence to me they mentioned not all my devices were up-to-date, but they didn't mention which other device/s it was, just wondering what device it was. Here is my list of devices and the firmware on them.

Are these the firmware versions that others have on their device?

Smart Thermostat - Firmware - 54.8
Smart Radiator - Firmware - 54.4
Extension Kit - Firmware - 54.11
Bridge V2 - Firmware - 47.2

Thanks

reignschaos

deezell wrote: »

That's odd alright. You could try the alternative of deleting the Hallway zone and just adding the TRV into the Downstairs main stat's zone as an additional device, where it will operate to the same schedule as Downstairs (it should be anyway), it's effectively the same thing, Downstairs stat stays as measuring device.

That's exactly what we did, removed the second room and moved the two devices into a single room and now working as expected.

deezell

reignschaos wrote: »

That's exactly what we did, removed the second room and moved the two devices into a single room and now working as expected.

Result!

deezell

reignschaos wrote: »

Another Tado Query

One of my Tado Thermostats isn't on the latest firmware and Tado are trying to resolve this. However in their correspondence to me they mentioned not all my devices were up-to-date, but they didn't mention which other device/s it was, just wondering what device it was. Here is my list of devices and the firmware on them.

Are these the firmware versions that others have on their device?

Smart Thermostat - Firmware - 54.8
Smart Radiator - Firmware - 54.4
Extension Kit - Firmware - 54.11
Bridge V2 - Firmware - 47.2

Thanks

I'd guess the bridge, all the others are on 54. My stat and bridge same as yours, TRV is still 49.3, so must request an update

OffalyMedic

We have a nest thermostat for about 3 weeks. I turned it on for an hour yesterday morning and when the house was warm turned it off again but the radiators have been on constantly since. Thermostat says off, apps says off but radiators still hopping. Please help!

deezell

OffalyMedic wrote: »

We have a nest thermostat for about 3 weeks. I turned it on for an hour yesterday morning and when the house was warm turned it off again but the radiators have been on constantly since. Thermostat says off, apps says off but radiators still hopping. Please help!

Was it working correctly for the previous 3 weeks.
Do you use it to control seperate HW.
Are your previous timers/controllers still installed.
Oil or gas.

First check the heatlink box connected to the boiler or zone valve. Does it's indicator lights come on and off as you turn the stat on and off. If it's ON all the time power it off for a minute, then on, to reboot. If the the boiler is still firing though the heatlink box indicator is off then there is some reason for this. If the boiler is fired via a motorised valve, this may be stuck open, and it's relay is firing the boiler. If previous controllers were not disabled or removed, they could be providing the live voltage to fire the boiler if someone switched them on. If the boiler itself is an older model with panel controls, ( timer, on , off) sometimes these can override the external controller is not switched or wired correctly.

https://nest.com/uk/support/article/What-does-the-light-on-Heat-Link-mean

OffalyMedic

deezell wrote:

Was it working correctly for the previous 3 weeks. Do you use it to control seperate HW. Are your previous timers/controllers still installed. Oil or gas.

Has been working fine til now. Only 1 heating zone, old controls out. Looks to be working now after resetting control on wall. Think it had lost connection with the stand in other room

deezell

OffalyMedic wrote: »

Has been working fine til now. Only 1 heating zone, old controls out. Looks to be working now after resetting control on wall. Think it had lost connection with the stand in other room

By stand you mean the heatlink box? The Nest stat uses it's own wireless signal between it and the box, independent of the house WIFI, which is only used to connect to the app and the outside world. If there is a barrier or interference with this signal, try moving the Nest to a different location, also away from cordless telephones.
The nest stat has the option of low voltage hardwiring back to the heatlink box, which provides a direct wired signal path, and also powers the Nest, so no little charger supply needed. In a retrofit from an old manual stat this is easily achieved by isolating and reusing the wire pair from the old stat back to the boiler, with the Nest wall mounted in the old stat location.
Maybe by stand you mean the power supply unit?