Home heating automation

deezell

loyatemu wrote: »

we have 2 zones + HW (gas boiler)

I was looking at the Drayton system but I'm not clear as to how it controls the zones. We have a thermostat per zone (upstairs and downstairs); the timer/controller has separate programs for heating and hot water but AFAIK it has no individual control over the heating zones, the thermostats control those via powered valves.

This has been the system in most places I've lived so I don't think this is unusual but if the Drayton only replaces the controller how can it individually control the zones?

Drayton wiser Kit 3, comes with controller and two wireless stats, about £208 on Amazon. App almost as good as Tado, install is a cinch. If you have an existing 3 zone controller, just swap over the wires to the Drayton one, mains, CH wires and HW wire, pair the stats, then connect the controller to d'internet,
EDIT. Your existing stats will be wired with the timed signal from the existing controller going to each stat then on to their respective valves. the Drayton does all this in the controller, and your old stats will either be left on full or removed and the wires joined.

deezell

savemejebus wrote: »

€795 is taking the michael alright.

I have 3 zones, upstairs, downstairs and hot water so I'm figuring one 'hive heating and hot water' and one additional thermostat (to get separately would be £233 from amazon) would be what i need and also satisfy the grant requirements. Not confident to install it myself so checking to see if the grant (if possible) would be a more cost effective method to get it.

Here's the Hive Stat with or without HW control, Counter price in Heatmerchants only €166 (133 plus vat). You don't have to dress up as a plumber to buy. Extra zone 90 plus vat, €109, total €275, about the amazon price. Buy local in Ennis Heatmerchants. Enquire there about grant installers, pay him to install and sign the forms, get the full 700.

http://www.heatmerchants.ie/v4/581ae...gDealDec18.pdf

loyatemu

deezell wrote: »

Drayton wiser Kit 3, comes with controller and two wireless stats, about £208 on Amazon. App almost as good as Tado, install is a cinch. If you have an existing 3 zone controller, just swap over the wires to the Drayton one, mains, CH wires and HW wire, pair the stats, then connect the controller to d'internet,
EDIT. Your existing stats will be wired with the timed signal from the existing controller going to each stat then on to their respective valves. the Drayton does all this in the controller, and your old stats will either be left on full or removed and the wires joined.

Presumably I'll have to check that my existing controller is wired for the 2 heating zones separately. I thought the stats managed the zones and the controller just turned the whole system on and off, but I'm not an expert (as you've probably guessed).

Currently our upstairs stat is on the landing, which is basically useless for controlling the temp in the bedrooms. With this at least I could put the wireless stat in our room then at a later date add TRVs to the other rooms.

loyatemu

loyatemu wrote: »

Presumably I'll have to check that my existing controller is wired for the 2 heating zones separately. I thought the stats managed the zones and the controller just turned the whole system on and off, but I'm not an expert (as you've probably guessed).

Currently our upstairs stat is on the landing, which is basically useless for controlling the temp in the bedrooms. With this at least I could put the wireless stat in our room then at a later date add TRVs to the other rooms.

OK - our existing controller is a Siemens RWB29, which is a 2 channel controller (CH and HW) so I don't think the Drayton controller will be able to control the separate heating zones without some rewiring .

savemejebus

deezell wrote: »

Here's the Hive Stat with or without HW control, Counter price in Heatmerchants only €166 (133 plus vat). You don't have to dress up as a plumber to buy. Extra zone 90 plus vat, €109, total €275, about the amazon price. Buy local in Ennis Heatmerchants. Enquire there about grant installers, pay him to install and sign the forms, get the full 700.

http://www.heatmerchants.ie/v4/581ae...gDealDec18.pdf

That sounds like a good plan, cheers

deezell

loyatemu wrote: »

OK - our existing controller is a Siemens RWB29, which is a 2 channel controller (CH and HW) so I don't think the Drayton controller will be able to control the separate heating zones without some rewiring .

You'll most likely find that there are two switched lives (SLs) going from the single controller CH timed out to the individual stats. If there are, these will go to their separate CH outs on the Drayton. If not, the drayton can just be installed in the same location as all the zone valves, and the three SLs for each valve can be connected directly. Then you can just completely scrap the old stats and their wiring. This would be a better job too, as the zone valve wiring would not be ruuning off and back to a redundant stat location.

2011

deezell wrote: »

You'll most likely find that there are two switched lives (SLs) going from the single controller CH timed out to the individual stats. If there are, these will go to their separate CH outs on the Drayton. If not, the drayton can just be installed in the same location as all the zone valves, and the three SLs for each valve can be connected directly. Then you can just completely scrap the old stats and their wiring. This would be a better job too, as the zone valve wiring would not be ruuning off and back to a redundant stat location.

If installed in the hot press how is the boiler switched on? Or are you assuming that the zone valves have been correctly connected to turn on the boiler? That has been my experience while working as an electrician.

Unfortunately many zone valves installed do not have the auxiliary dry contacts wired back to the boiler. This means that a zone valve open status can not be used to switch on the boiler in the way you described in your earlier post (which is my preferred method too).

deezell

2011 wrote: »

If installed in the hot press how is the boiler switched on? Or are you assuming that the zone valves have been correctly connected to turn on the boiler? That has been my experience while working as an electrician.

Unfortunately many zone valves installed do not have the auxiliary dry contacts wired back to the boiler. This means that a zone valve open status can not be used to switch on the boiler in the way you described in your earlier post (which is my preferred method too).

It should be done that way, otherwise the boiler cycles with no load and depends on its built in stat. Not efficient, possibly unsafe if a bypass is not plumbed in. As you have a single timed zone its possible this SL is used to fire the boiler, with a spur from this to both stats and then to their zone valves. If the HW is also zone valved it would have to use its relay contacts to fire the boiler, as just combining the SLs from the old controller means the timing for CH and HW zones are combined. It should be simple enough to test if the boiler is not called when the controller is on for any or all zones but the stats are off. If the boiler still burns when all valve pilot lights are off, then boiler is not called via the valve microswitches, but likely by one of the controller SL outputs. Its also possible that HW does not have a valve, or a cylinder stat, and is connected directly with a gravity feed. In this case its SL from the controller is most likely directly calling the boiler, which is OK if the CH calls are coming from the valve switches and the three can then be combined without any backfeed (one zone SL effectively opening another zone valve).

2011

deezell wrote: »

It should be done that way, otherwise the boiler cycles with no load and depends on its built in stat. Not efficient

I agree 100%
I am just saying that in my exeperience (15 years on my tools) as an electrician this is frequently not done. It can also be very difficult to installl the required cabling to achieve this if it is not in place as this cabling would have to go from the zone valves to the boiler.

What should be done and what is done can be very different things particularly in Ireland in the constitution industry.

I understand exactly the way it should work and will modify my Celtic Tiger built house accordingly (some day) making it the only house in the estate that is done properly.

I just think it is important for people to understand that the ideal / optimal wiring for new heating controls may be quite involved depending on how contentious the original electrician was. Due to this they may opt to compremise rather than facing doing something very involved, messy and expensive.

loyatemu

in my case the boiler does stop running if all the stats are above their set temperature.

2011

loyatemu wrote: »

in my case the boiler does stop running if all the stats are above their set temperature.

That is good news

I wish mine did:o

maxamillius

Does the grant usually cover the costs of installing motorised valves? I currently have a single zone pumped system and would like to get it zoned for HW separately?

Cheers

raytaxi

I got nest installed couple of years ago with electric ireland. Last year upgraded boiler and 3 zones install as well as insulation wall and attic qualify for Seai grants also got carbon credits applied to my electric ireland account. Carbon credits depend on your supplier doing the paperwork and applying for them or they give a discount off your bill. Grant amount was 1850 and carbon credit was 364 for insulation and 460 for boiler upgrade with remote access.

maxamillius

So I’m planning on installing one of these to replace the integral analogue time clock on my oil boiler, https://www.ie.screwfix.com/drayton-mitime-mt711r1a09sx-single-channel-timeswitch-with-li-ion-back-up.html.

This in theory gives me a little more control over timings, currently difficult as the intervals on the analogue clock are not great.

My current wall stat controls the circulating pump, looks to be a permanent and a switched live behind it.

So when boiler comes on it does not do nothing until I turn the stat which starts the pump and thus the CH and HW.

I tried switching boiler on and leaving stat turned down to see if HW would heat without pump being on, it didn’t.

My question is, if I get netatmo, what do I need to do to install it? Do I need to alter wiring to boiler, alter wiring to pump, both?

Cheers

deezell

maxamillius wrote: »

So I’m planning on installing one of these to replace the integral analogue time clock on my oil boiler, https://www.ie.screwfix.com/drayton-mitime-mt711r1a09sx-single-channel-timeswitch-with-li-ion-back-up.html.

This in theory gives me a little more control over timings, currently difficult as the intervals on the analogue clock are not great.

My current wall stat controls the circulating pump, looks to be a permanent and a switched live behind it.

So when boiler comes on it does not do nothing until I turn the stat which starts the pump and thus the CH and HW.

I tried switching boiler on and leaving stat turned down to see if HW would heat without pump being on, it didn’t.

My question is, if I get netatmo, what do I need to do to install it? Do I need to alter wiring to boiler, alter wiring to pump, both?

Cheers

You are using the boiler clock to fire the boiler in timed intervals, which in itself does nothing as both HW and CH require the circulation pump. Your current stat turns on and off the circulation pump.
You can combine the timing and stat functions using the netatmo. You need to identify the electrical terminal in the boiler which fires it on or off. This sometimes labelled SL (switched live) or LR ( live return). This is likely connected to the live output of the built in timer, enabling the timer to turn on and off the boiler. Connecting a live cable to this terminal will fire the boiler.
The netatmo is a wireless stat with a relay switch in the receiver. You must install this and connect the relay boiler adaptor cable brown and blue wires to the mains and connect the black and grey wires across the boiler Live and LR (or SL). The netatmo relay now controls the boiler firing. You now need to remove the old stat and either join together it's wires, or just turn it up full. The circulation pump will come on every time the boiler is fired, and this will be controlled by the time and temperature schedule of the Netatmo stat wirelessly linked to the receiver.
Your system is far from perfect in that it does not allow HW independent of CH. If you want this you will need to make some plumbing alterations, such as the addition of zoned valves.
The netatmo stat has no provision for controlling future independent HW only zones, so you might want to consider a Nest, Tado, Hive or Drayton Wiser stat which can have a HW relay as well as a CH relay to control zone valves.
If you post the brand and model number of your oil boiler I shoul be able to find the terminal diagrams to which the netatmo relay is connected.

maxamillius

deezell wrote: »

You are using the boiler clock to fire the boiler in timed intervals, which in itself does nothing as both HW and CH require the circulation pump. Your current stat turns on and off the circulation pump.
You can combine the timing and stat functions using the netatmo. You need to identify the electrical terminal in the boiler which fires it on or off. This sometimes labelled SL (switched live) or LR ( live return). This is likely connected to the live output of the built in timer, enabling the timer to turn on and off the boiler. Connecting a live cable to this terminal will fire the boiler.
The netatmo is a wireless stat with a relay switch in the receiver. You must install this and connect the relay boiler adaptor cable brown and blue wires to the mains and connect the black and grey wires across the boiler Live and LR (or SL). The netatmo relay now controls the boiler firing. You now need to remove the old stat and either join together it's wires, or just turn it up full. The circulation pump will come on every time the boiler is fired, and this will be controlled by the time and temperature schedule of the Netatmo stat wirelessly linked to the receiver.
Your system is far from perfect in that it does not allow HW independent of CH. If you want this you will need to make some plumbing alterations, such as the addition of zoned valves.
The netatmo stat has no provision for controlling future independent HW only zones, so you might want to consider a Nest, Tado, Hive or Drayton Wiser stat which can have a HW relay as well as a CH relay to control zone valves.
If you post the brand and model number of your oil boiler I shoul be able to find the terminal diagrams to which the netatmo relay is connected.

Thanks Deezel, agree that my system is very basic and I could do with more control. At the moment I don’t have the money to get done valves etc installed so just trying to start off small and work way up to more control.

So can I do all of what you have just said using nest,tado etc to start off with my basic system?, then if I decide to add zone valves I can just expand the nest/tado or whatever I install.

deezell

maxamillius wrote: »

Thanks Deezel, agree that my system is very basic and I could do with more control. At the moment I don’t have the money to get done valves etc installed so just trying to start off small and work way up to more control.

So can I do all of what you have just said using nest,tado etc to start off with my basic system?, then if I decide to add zone valves I can just expand the nest/tado or whatever I install.

Pretty much. In my description I assumed that the circulation pump will only operate if the stat is on and if the boiler is firing, but it is possible that the live to the stat is not taken from the boiler timed live. This would be a poor setup, if the pump continued to run when the boiler timed period is off, so just confirm that pump only runs when the boiler is fired and the stat is on.
All the stats listed have a wireless relay, but it's optional with Tado as it has a switch in the stat for straight replacement of an existing wall stat which has been wired to control both boiler and pump. This would not be sufficient given your current wiring.
The hive stat is currently good value in heat merchants, at €166 for 2 zone receiver. See earlier posts. This will connect to the boiler to fire it, and it has a spare HW relay switch for future use.

maxamillius

deezell wrote: »

Pretty much. In my description I assumed that the circulation pump will only operate if the stat is on and if the boiler is firing, but it is possible that the live to the stat is not taken from the boiler timed live. This would be a poor setup, if the pump continued to run when the boiler timed period is off, so just confirm that pump only runs when the boiler is fired and the stat is on.
All the stats listed have a wireless relay, but it's optional with Tado as it has a switch in the stat for straight replacement of an existing wall stat which has been wired to control both boiler and pump. This would not be sufficient given your current wiring.
The hive stat is currently good value in heat merchants, at €166 for 2 zone receiver. See earlier posts. This will connect to the boiler to fire it, and it has a spare HW relay switch for future use.

If I switch the boiler off, the pump will stop also, so the permanent live at the stat is actually a switched live from the boiler and then a switched live to the pump, does that sound correct?

deezell

maxamillius wrote: »

If I switch the boiler off, the pump will stop also, so the permanent live at the stat is actually a switched live from the boiler and then a switched live to the pump, does that sound correct?

Yes, you just need to find the SL terminal in the boiler and connect the new stat receiver SL to it, turn off the old clock, permanently connect the wires of the old stat, then the new stat will control timing and variable temperature slots on its App/schedule.

maxamillius

I think it’s finally starting to get a bit clearer, thanks for the input, very much appreciated.

Now just to decide which system, Hive looks like it might be a decent enough choice

ghostdancer

Would Nest work with an immersion that is run on a timeswitch, ie. to turn the heater for the hot water on/off?

I have the heating (radiators, 1 zone) controlled from a segment-timer in the hallway, simple on/off one. I believe that Nest can replace this no problem?

I also have the hot water immersion controlled from a timeswitch in a press upstairs. I say "controlled", but it's really just turning the hot water boiler on/off at specific times. This is the timeswitch: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Can one Nest be set to use both of these? I just want to be able to turn both on/off with the one device really. No need for adjusting temperatures (which I don't currently do anyway).

maxamillius

@Deezel, Picture of my oil boiler attached, not sure if you have a wiring diagram for it?!

deezell

ghostdancer wrote: »

Would Nest work with an immersion that is run on a timeswitch, ie. to turn the heater for the hot water on/off?

I have the heating (radiators, 1 zone) controlled from a segment-timer in the hallway, simple on/off one. I believe that Nest can replace this no problem?

I also have the hot water immersion controlled from a timeswitch in a press upstairs. I say "controlled", but it's really just turning the hot water boiler on/off at specific times. This is the timeswitch: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Can one Nest be set to use both of these? I just want to be able to turn both on/off with the one device really. No need for adjusting temperatures (which I don't currently do anyway).

The current rating of the switches on the Nest relay box (heatlink) is not high enough to directly switch an electric immersion element, which requires a current rating of about 16 amps. You would need to connect a suitable mains switching relay, something like this wired up inside the immersion casing or inside a wall terminal box.

https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/amp/p/non-latching-relays/1217809/

If you're a little more adventurous you could use a Sonoff wifi relay and create a timer schedule on its app. These are better presented for wiring, nicely encased. Cheap too.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/OWSOO-Wireless-Controller-Consumption-Measurement/dp/B07D5RY1VQ

deezell

maxamillius wrote: »

@Deezel, Picture of my oil boiler attached, not sure if you have a wiring diagram for it?!

Thats an obscure one alright. Made I think by a Tipperary company who went bust in 2016, not a trace of a user/installer manual on the net, but it would not be difficult to determine where the firing switched live from the timer is connected, this would likely just go straight to the burner. Tap this and you can fire the boiler on and off. Look for a terminal block with a loop in and out, this is where a wall stat would have been optionally connected. Any handy sparks would figure it out, there may even be a wiring label inside on the panel. Theres a few phone nunbers on this old brochure if you wanted to do a bit of ringing around, you might get to talk to someone who could dig up a diagram, but like I said, its just the switched live from the back of the timer, so follow this to the terminal block and connect there.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r43v6KOcD8Vq0s-gU9WzsJ0KXNwpMJdD/view?usp=drivesdk

2011

deezell wrote: »

The current rating of the switches on the Nest relay box (heatlink) is not high enough to directly switch an electric immersion element, which requires a current rating of about 16 amps. You would need to connect a suitable mains switching relay, something like this wired up inside the immersion casing or inside a wall terminal box.

Agreed, the Nest is not rated for a load that large.

Personally speaking I would go for a contractor rated for at least 25A. Why? This provides a descent safety margin for little or no extra cost and it is generally dimensionally identical. A NO contactor used for storage heaters would be ideal.

I have seen plenty of 20A immersion switches fail over the years. Also it is against regulations (ET101:2008) to use a 16A contactor on a circuit protected by a 20A MCB and most immersions are protected by a 20A MCB.

If you're a little more adventurous you could use a Sonoff wifi relay and create a timer schedule on its app. These are better presented for wiring, nicely encased. Cheap too.

Yup.

Be warned: As mentioned by Stoner & I these units are not CE certified so switching loads of this size is risky unless using a contactor even when the unit states that it is suitably rated.

I know that they claim to be CE certified, but they are not.

deezell

I'd read that, l linked an Amazon one, there are much cheaper ones from spurious sites, I'd expect Amazon to be CE stamped.

2011

deezell wrote: »

I'd read that, l linked an Amazon one, there are much cheaper ones from spurious sites, I'd expect Amazon to be CE stamped.

No, all made in China.

maxamillius

Anyone know if the electric ireland nest offer is for the entire nest package or is there a catch?

They are offering it to customers for 130 Euro

Thanks

Krombopulos Michael

maxamillius wrote: »

Anyone know if the electric ireland nest offer is for the entire nest package or is there a catch?

They are offering it to customers for 130 Euro

Thanks

I got this offer. Its for a single nest thermostat to be installed by an engineer. If you want another nest thermostat for a different zone you pay full price which is what I did. Cost me €400 for both to be installed.

However, It had been said that if you put in two separate orders on the Electric Ireland website, you can get both for 130 price.

wandererz

ghostdancer wrote: »

Would Nest work with an immersion that is run on a timeswitch, ie. to turn the heater for the hot water on/off?

I have the heating (radiators, 1 zone) controlled from a segment-timer in the hallway, simple on/off one. I believe that Nest can replace this no problem?

I also have the hot water immersion controlled from a timeswitch in a press upstairs. I say "controlled", but it's really just turning the hot water boiler on/off at specific times. This is the timeswitch: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Can one Nest be set to use both of these? I just want to be able to turn both on/off with the one device really. No need for adjusting temperatures (which I don't currently do anyway).

I went with Heatmiser Neo. Suits my needs perfectly.
Used a contactor for the immersion timer.