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Home heating automation
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Was looking for a wireless temp stat for hot water cylinder , (other than a sonoff th16)
Want to check the temp of tank from phone during day.
Is there any simple solution for this other than a full system?0 -
Even if you don't want to use the Sonoff TH16 as your switch,
it's a very cheap way of putting a temperature sensor on your tank.
It will report temperature in the eWeLink app.0 -
Even if you don't want to use the Sonoff TH16 as your switch,
it's a very cheap way of putting a temperature sensor on your tank.
It will report temperature in the eWeLink app.
Fair point shud have thought of that.thanks
Which temp sensor is best to get with the TH16 for this ?
https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/sonoff-th.html0 -
This one. If the tank does not have a stat insert tube, ( some basic copper cylinders), just make sure it contacts the tank metal under the insulation layer at a high point on the tank.Fair point shud have thought of that.thanks
Which temp sensor is best to get with the TH16 for this ?
https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/sonoff-th.html
https://sonoff.itead.cc/en/products/accessories/ds18b200 -
First, install ext kit next to cylinder.
It appears that the SL from all 4 independent valves is sent to the timer before it goes to the boiler. Same effect as having a SL from a timer split and sent to each stat, from there to acuate each valve, and then combine all 4 valves' orange SL outputs to fire the boiler. Logically it achieves the same effect, mechanically it appears that the stats are always controlling their valves, but the firing of the boiler by any valve is interrupted by the combined SLs going through the timer. It's a bit daft to do it this way, but of no consequence once you combine all the lives in the timer, or leave it always on. You could establish the exact layout of your wiring with a phase tester and methodical switching of the valves and timer. Does any stat open its valve even when the timer is off? This is how it would be if timer is last in circuit instead of first. Either way, get the CH stats in and switching their valves.
Later, find the permanent live that goes up to the cylinder stat, disconnect, (check it's not interrupted by the timer), and use this to power ext kit, you'll need a local Neutral as well. Take a new SL from the HW contact on the ext kit, and use this to supply the cylinder stat. You should now be able to turn off HW valve by timing or by turning down the cylinder stat.
Hi again,
So apologies for not coming back sooner. The boxes arrived and I threw them under the stairs as I had so much on!
So I have been thinking more: you mentioned in an earlier post about the small advantages that having a mobile Stat instead of a wired one brings - it certainly isn't a bad thing I guess as you could always end up placing the wireless one in the same place as where the wired one was - but you can still move it.
Obviously though in terms of Tado gear I think I can either:
1. choose to use the extensions kit next to the boiler - for the wireless CH Stat and have no timer on the heating;
Or else
2. put the extension kit next to the cylinder - and have no wireless CH Stat but have timing on the heating.
Any views yourself in terms of which brings more benefit? If I went with option 1 I assume I could use the Sonoff switch that I have seen you refer to before (I have a cylinder which takes probe thermostat) and is there any value in that where I assume the downside is having two different apps on the go?
Or am I missing something again...!?
P.S. The valves are always dead when the timer is off...
Tks0 -
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Hi again,
....Or am I missing something again...!?
P.S. The valves are always dead when the timer is off...
Tks
I'm that case old timer must be first in the chain, timer, split to stats, each stat to its valve, each valve relay SL combined to fire the boiler.
If you want a wireless stat and timer control of HW the ext kit can do both. It's terminals can be configured either a CH only 2 pole switch, or two single pole SL outputs, on for wireless CH and one for HW.0 -
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I have a Sonoff per zone each controlling a motorised valve as deezell describes in the post above. In addition I have an additional Sonoff in series with the boiler. The reason for this additional Sonoff is that in the event of a valve failing in the open state the additional Sonoff provides another opportunity to shut off the boiler. In addition I use this to measure the temperature in another area.
Remember as long as a valve is open it will continue to call for the boiler and motorised valves can fail.0 -
I'm that case old timer must be first in the chain, timer, split to stats, each stat to its valve, each valve relay SL combined to fire the boiler.
If you want a wireless stat and timer control of HW the ext kit can do both. It's terminals can be configured either a CH only 2 pole switch, or two single pole SL outputs, on for wireless CH and one for HW.
If I had separate feeds going to each of the four zones I could! But I have the set-up where the CH cylinder and the HW wires are joined together in the Hot Press and only one wire comes back to the timer I think.0 -
If I had separate feeds going to each of the four zones I could! But I have the set-up where the CH cylinder and the HW wires are joined together in the Hot Press and only one wire comes back to the timer I think.
At some point the individual lives from the stats will go their respective zone valves. Only after this will the SLs from the zone valves be combined to fire the boiler. If alk 4 stat's are turned up, and all 4 valves are activated, try turning off the timer. If all 4 valves close and their indicator lamps, if any, go out, then it would have to be the case that the timer is first in the circuit and is split ti all 4 stats. If the timer is installed last in line after all the valves' relay SLs are combined yo gire the boiler, turning off the timer cut the boiler, but the valves will remain lit, open, and supplying merged SL to the timer. Either scenario will work, and either will allow the substation of wired Tado stats and the insertion of the ext kit for HW timing and one wireless stat.
It's entirely possible that your wiring is all over the place, with various SLs combined, criss crossing to valves, HW stat wired as priority over CH or vice versa. You need to trace all these and test each valve individually0 -
At some point the individual lives from the stats will go their respective zone valves. Only after this will the SLs from the zone valves be combined to fire the boiler. If alk 4 stat's are turned up, and all 4 valves are activated, try turning off the timer. If all 4 valves close and their indicator lamps, if any, go out, then it would have to be the case that the timer is first in the circuit and is split ti all 4 stats. If the timer is installed last in line after all the valves' relay SLs are combined yo gire the boiler, turning off the timer cut the boiler, but the valves will remain lit, open, and supplying merged SL to the timer. Either scenario will work, and either will allow the substation of wired Tado stats and the insertion of the ext kit for HW timing and one wireless stat.
It's entirely possible that your wiring is all over the place, with various SLs combined, criss crossing to valves, HW stat wired as priority over CH or vice versa. You need to trace all these and test each valve individually
Hang on....if say the CH upper zone and HW valves have their SL joined together upstairs then I can't control downstairs via the Ext kit downstairs no? As in only one wire (I think) comes down and I can't break the wire apart? Or I am missing something else...?!0 -
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Hang on....if say the CH upper zone and HW valves have their SL joined together upstairs then I can't control downstairs via the Ext kit downstairs no? As in only one wire (I think) comes down and I can't break the wire apart? Or I am missing something else...?!
You need to take a look at how S plan wiring is implemented. The boiler is fired by a combination of live voltage from a number of zone relays. You have 3 CH and one HW. When any valve opens, live is sent to the boiler to fire it. The lives from the stats, and any timer going to the stats, is never connected to the boiler to fire it, only to its respective valve. Each smart stat is both a timer and thermostat, so wiring one in place of any stat removes the need for the old timer, which can be removed or left fully on.
To provide timing for HW, you must provide the cylinder stat with live from the ext kit HW terminal. The ext kit will provided timed live to the cylinder stat, which will in turn provide temperature switched live (when the timed live is on), to the HW valve. Only when this valve is open will it provide independent live to the boiler, this live not in any way physically connected off the timed/stat controlled live.
The reason for valve relays is to isolate the stat lives from each other, otherwise one stat would switch on all the valves if their control lives were connected together. This combining is done after the valves from their relays.
Finally, to connect one stat wirelessly requires the existing stat SL from the old stat to be replaced by the CH SL from the ext kit. This live will go directly to the valve of the zone selected, and be controlled by the now wireless stat. which can be anywhere in the zone it controls. As the ext kit provides SL for a zone valve and SL for the cylinder stat to the HW zone valve, it would be easiest if the CH zone valve was in the same location as the HW tank and it's stat.0 -
You need to take a look at how S plan wiring is implemented. The boiler is fired by a combination of live voltage from a number of zone relays. You have 3 CH and one HW. When any valve opens, live is sent to the boiler to fire it. The lives from the stats, and any timer going to the stats, is never connected to the boiler to fire it, only to its respective valve. Each smart stat is both a timer and thermostat, so wiring one in place of any stat removes the need for the old timer, which can be removed or left fully on.
To provide timing for HW, you must provide the cylinder stat with live from the ext kit HW terminal. The ext kit will provided timed live to the cylinder stat, which will in turn provide temperature switched live (when the timed live is on), to the HW valve. Only when this valve is open will it provide independent live to the boiler, this live not in any way physically connected off the timed/stat controlled live.
The reason for valve relays is to isolate the stat lives from each other, otherwise one stat would switch on all the valves if their control lives were connected together. This combining is done after the valves from their relays.
Finally, to connect one stat wirelessly requires the existing stat SL from the old stat to be replaced by the CH SL from the ext kit. This live will go directly to the valve of the zone selected, and be controlled by the now wireless stat. which can be anywhere in the zone it controls. As the ext kit provides SL for a zone valve and SL for the cylinder stat to the HW zone valve, it would be easiest if the CH zone valve was in the same location as the HW tank and it's stat.
So starting to understand a bit more now. I worked through the junction box over the boiler. The switched live from the timing box is connected to three live wires and disconnected one by one. Removing one killed power to downstairs CH; removing another killed power to first floor CH; but removing the third killed power to both the top floor CH and the HW. So it looks like only one live is feeding the hot press.
So I could, as you say, place the Ext Kit at the Hot Press point and this could give me timer control of the HW. Unfortunately, as you say, I think that would mean my Wireless Stat would have to be for the valve next to it which is the valve for the second floor heating - 2 bedrooms.
I guess I had hoped to go Wireless in the living rooms area - the ground floor but then I couldn't use the Ext Kit for the HW as the top floor CH is on the same live feed.
Am I right in saying the above now?
Or there does appear to be all 4 feeds coming back from the 4 valves - I assume it isn't these that I would be intercepting with the Extension kit...?0 -
So starting to understand a bit more......
......Or there does appear to be all 4 feeds coming back from the 4 valves - I assume it isn't these that I would be intercepting with the Extension kit...?
No, these are the switched live from the valves to fire the boiler, and they would all be connected together. You should try and determine if you can get a single wire from the living room valve back to the location of the HW valve, that is all you require. This wire will carry SL from the ext kit CH terminal to the actuator wire of the living room valve.0 -
No, these are the switched live from the valves to fire the boiler, and they would all be connected together. You should try and determine if you can get a single wire from the living room valve back to the location of the HW valve, that is all you require. This wire will carry SL from the ext kit CH terminal to the actuator wire of the living room valve.
Hmmm. Need to get from ground floor utility to 2nd floor hot press! In theory I could go out the side wall, up the side of the house, into the attic and down into the hot press. In fact actually if I did that I'd have the choice of either using it to carry the permanent live from the Ext Box at the boiler to the HW Stat; or whether I'd carry the SL live from the valve by the boiler up to the Ext kit by the cylinder.
So I'd need a wire.
Is there anything to be said for using a Sonoff on the cylinder?0 -
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No need for ext kit, set HW timing AND temperature by sonoff remote app.
Use ext kit exclusively for living room CH wireless stat.
Control either by Alexa, IFTTT etc.
I'm beginning to think that. I assume the only downside is separate apps - eWeLink and Tado? But I either go with that options, drive a wire as described above or else choose to have Tado do either HW control OR wireless living room.
Relative to your adventures what would you go with? Note I'm also planning to get Tado TRVs but will do in summer as no TRVs on system so will have to drain and install which will take a do or two so easier in summer. Did you go wireless or do you think it's worth it?
I assume you enjoyed going through the fun of all this as well?!0 -
I'd be happy to have HW controlled just by stat, no timing, provided your HW cylinder is a deep insulated modern one. Not much savings in using a timer when heat loss is tiny. TRVs good when hard zoning is difficult to achieve. I'll have to dig concrete floors to split CH flow and return to increase zones, not trivial, so a few smart TRVs let's you drop out certain rooms until needed. Fun working out the theory, specially as I had to blend boiler stove with oil boiler, but once you plan it out and follow through with each step, it comes together.I'm beginning to think that. I assume the only downside is separate apps - eWeLink and Tado? But I either go with that options, drive a wire as described above or else choose to have Tado do either HW control OR wireless living room.
Relative to your adventures what would you go with? Note I'm also planning to get Tado TRVs but will do in summer as no TRVs on system so will have to drain and install which will take a do or two so easier in summer. Did you go wireless or do you think it's worth it?
I assume you enjoyed going through the fun of all this as well?!0 -
I'd be happy to have HW controlled just by stat, no timing, provided your HW cylinder is a deep insulated modern one. Not much savings in using a timer when heat loss is tiny. TRVs good when hard zoning is difficult to achieve. I'll have to dig concrete floors to split CH flow and return to increase zones, not trivial, so a few smart TRVs let's you drop out certain rooms until needed. Fun working out the theory, specially as I had to blend boiler stove with oil boiler, but once you plan it out and follow through with each step, it comes together.
Was thinking about it last night in bed (don't ask!) and am asking myself if actually there is any benefit to going wireless at all if I intend to put Tado TRVs on each rad? Is having a wireless Stat any benefit if you have TRV? I know the Stat does measure to tenth of a decimal and the TRV only whole number but is it overkill to have both you think?0 -
about to buy the Drayton 2xCH+HW kit as it's £50 off today.
We have 2 CH zones with separate stats but the timer/contoller is only set up for 1xCH+HW i.e. the heating is either on or off and the stats control the zones.
So I took off the existing (Siemens) timer to have a look at the wiring - it looks like there's only 2 circuits present (1CH+1HW) which means the Drayton won't work. Can anyone confirm:
Siemens wiring guide:
https://pasteboard.co/I9caqLl.png
actual wiring:
https://pasteboard.co/I9cb8zH.png0 -
Was thinking about it last night in bed (don't ask!) and am asking myself if actually there is any benefit to going wireless at all if I intend to put Tado TRVs on each rad? Is having a wireless Stat any benefit if you have TRV? I know the Stat does measure to tenth of a decimal and the TRV only whole number but is it overkill to have both you think?
Ignoring the TRV aspect, wireless is handy for retrofit where there is no existing stat, it saves having to run cables down walls, under floors ect. It also allows experimentation with the optimal location of the stat in a zone.
If you install TRVs in a zone, they will act independently of the main stat to control their room temperature, but non TRV rads will be heated also during these calls for heat. The main stat acts as the boiler relay for the TRVs, as well as a stat for its own location. If you install a TRV in the main stat location, you must choose which is used as the measuring device. Choosing the main stat means that the TRV now becomes a slave valve to main stat, with 0.1° granularity. With a full TRV install in a zone, the main stat effectively only controls the temperature of the room it is in, and acts as a boiler relay for all other TRVs, firing the boiler at their request, but not opening its own slaved TRV and rad if it is at target temperature.0 -
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about to buy the Drayton 2xCH+HW kit as it's £50 off today.
We have 2 CH zones with separate stats but the timer/contoller is only set up for 1xCH+HW i.e. the heating is either on or off and the stats control the zones.
So I took off the existing (Siemens) timer to have a look at the wiring - it looks like there's only 2 circuits present (1CH+1HW) which means the Drayton won't work. Can anyone confirm:
Siemens wiring guide:
https://pasteboard.co/I9caqLl.png
actual wiring:
https://pasteboard.co/I9cb8zH.png
Bummer, it looks like the single timed CH Switched Live is split at a point beyond the controller, before it goes to the CH wall stats, which return 2 seperate switched lives to the CH zone valves. All is not lost. If all three zone valves are in the same location, locate the Drayton controller here, using its baseplate which you would have to do anyway, and wire the three SLs to their respective valves. The CH go straight to their valves, the HW goes via the cylinder stat, if present, otherwise install a new cylinder stat or just wire straight to it's valve if timed HW is sufficient for your needs
Remove and blank off all wires from the old controller and old stats.0 -
Bummer, it looks like the single timed CH Switched Live is split at a point beyond the controller, before it goes to the CH wall stats, which return 2 seperate switched lives to the CH zone valves. All is not lost. If all three zone valves are in the same location, locate the Drayton controller here, using its baseplate which you would have to do anyway, and wire the three SLs to their respective valves. The CH go straight to their valves, the HW goes via the cylinder stat, if present, otherwise install a new cylinder stat or just wire straight to it's valve if timed HW is sufficient for your needs
Remove and blank off all wires from the old controller and old stats.
what I'm hearing is "get a sparks" which is a shame as I was hoping I could do a straight swap.0 -
Ignoring the TRV aspect, wireless is handy for retrofit where there is no existing stat, it saves having to run cables down walls, under floors ect. It also allows experimentation with the optimal location of the stat in a zone.
If you install TRVs in a zone, they will act independently of the main stat to control their room temperature, but non TRV rads will be heated also during these calls for heat. The main stat acts as the boiler relay for the TRVs, as well as a stat for its own location. If you install a TRV in the main stat location, you must choose which is used as the measuring device. Choosing the main stat means that the TRV now becomes a slave valve to main stat, with 0.1° granularity. With a full TRV install in a zone, the main stat effectively only controls the temperature of the room it is in, and acts as a boiler relay for all other TRVs, firing the boiler at their request, but not opening its own slaved TRV and rad if it is at target temperature.
Can you install TRV on every rad in a zone? Seems to be conflicting advice. And just trying to figure out if going wireless is needed if I was to slave a TRV on every road to the wired Stat. I guess it's just to allow you to move it to find right temp - but can do that by playing with wired Stat and full TRV (if allowed) I assume...?0 -
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Can you install TRV on every rad in a zone? Seems to be conflicting advice. And just trying to figure out if going wireless is needed if I was to slave a TRV on every road to the wired Stat. I guess it's just to allow you to move it to find right temp - but can do that by playing with wired Stat and full TRV (if allowed) I assume...?
You can. Once you install a TRV on a rad in stat location (wired or wireless), you must include that TRV as device in the stat zone, and pick the measuring device, stat or TRV. Other TRVs will have their own virtual zone and will be the default measuring device, with the actual zone stat used as a relay. It makes sense, as if you assigned a TRV cohabiting with main stat it's own zone, they would conflict, with one calling the boiler and the other satisfied. You can have multiple TRVs slaved to a stat, you might have 4 or 4 rads in a large open plan area, so the main stat measures, and opens and closes all 4 valves.
Ultimately, every TRV could have a matching wall stat, expensive, and a lot of batteries.0 -
You would have had to wire in 3 zone backplane anyway, as your old controller is 2 zone.
the backplate is 3-zone compatible (according to the Drayton installation guide), I would have just had to separate the 2 zones onto different pins which I could handle.
I had a look at where the valves are under the boiler and it looks like it could be installed there instead, probably still need a sparks though as there are a lot more wires involved and would probably want to disconnect the old controller and stats in the process.0 -
the backplate is 3-zone compatible (according to the Drayton installation guide), I would have just had to separate the 2 zones onto different pins which I could handle.
I had a look at where the valves are under the boiler and it looks like it could be installed there instead, probably still need a sparks though as there are a lot more wires involved and would probably want to disconnect the old controller and stats in the process.
You're correct, the Drayton uses a variation of the 2 zone backplate pins to accommodate 3 zones, CH1, HW and CH2 on pins 1,2 and 3. As your controller was only 2 zone the backplate was ok, though the wiring was not. You were hoping CH1 and 2 were tied together at the plate. Still, not rocket science, and if you were confident to rearrange backplate wires, you could feed the two valve control wires directly in to 1 and 3, scrapping the wire that goes to the old stats and the returns from it.0 -
You can. Once you install a TRV on a rad in stat location (wired or wireless), you must include that TRV as device in the stat zone, and pick the measuring device, stat or TRV. Other TRVs will have their own virtual zone and will be the default measuring device, with the actual zone stat used as a relay. It makes sense, as if you assigned a TRV cohabiting with main stat it's own zone, they would conflict, with one calling the boiler and the other satisfied. You can have multiple TRVs slaved to a stat, you might have 4 or 4 rads in a large open plan area, so the main stat measures, and opens and closes all 4 valves.
Ultimately, every TRV could have a matching walk stat, expensive, and a lot of batteries.
So each trv could have a Stat just to get temp up and away from rad inlet? Be very costly alright. I assume though that you can offset etc on the trv and learn yourself what reading on the trv works best in terms of the room?0 -
I was looking into getting smart thermostats, had chosen the Drayton Wiser, however after contacting them, they stated my set-up is not compatible.
My set-up is s follows. Heat pump supplying Three zones (up/down heat). Heat pump controller looks after hot water cylinder, then have a traditional 2-zone timer and 230VAC wired thermostats for up/down stairs hearing zones. In hot press where hot water cyclinder is, there is an expansion vessel there also.
Can someone explain why the Drayton Wiser is not suitable for this set-up? Seems Tado is suitable, but Drayton Wiser is not, unclear why they woudl be different - anyone able to explain?0 -
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I was looking into getting smart thermostats, had chosen the Drayton Wiser, however after contacting them, they stated my set-up is not compatible.
My set-up is s follows. Heat pump supplying Three zones (up/down heat). Heat pump controller looks after hot water cylinder, then have a traditional 2-zone timer and 230VAC wired thermostats for up/down stairs hearing zones. In hot press where hot water cyclinder is, there is an expansion vessel there also.
Can someone explain why the Drayton Wiser is not suitable for this set-up? Seems Tado is suitable, but Drayton Wiser is not, unclear why they woudl be different - anyone able to explain?
So basically you have a 2 zone CH system with standard controls, HW control is not required. Nothing unusual about this, systems with combi boilers and on demand HW require no intervention from the CH stats and timer controller, smart or otherwise. At most, some systems may have HW priority built in, which will delay CH until HW demand is met. From the viewpoint of the stats, it calls for heat, then monitors room temperature, calling off the boiler when set temperature is reached or in the case of smart stats, approached.
Drayton may mistakenly assume you want it's kit to control HW, which you wouldn't, or perhaps it might not match well with the response profile of Heat pump souced hot flow, though this sounds unlikely.
The Drayton controller just substitutes for conventional controllers using a standard baseplate with wiring variations for 1 zone CH, two zone CH + HW, and three zone, 2 CH + HW. I think the confusion arises because standard 2 zone controllers come in two flavours, CH + HW and two CH. You would have the latter, though there is little difference between them technically except perhaps the CH + HW type might have a gravity mode switch, but in normal mode it can be used for two CH. Drayton rightly will advise that their CH plus HW controller can't be used for 2 CH zones, as it only supports one wireless stat. There's nothing to stop you using their kit 3 though, 2 CH plus HW, you simply ignore the HW facility, by leaving it timed permanently off on the app, and by not connecting anything to its HW SL terminal 2 on the the backplate. I can see no reason why this won't work0
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