Home heating automation

deezell

paulgrogan.eu wrote: »

Hi Deezell,


Yep so I do indeed have the Ext. Kit as I want Tado to handle the HW tank and stop ourselves using the immersion in the summer. At the moment we only have valves to control ground floor & 1st floor, with an open pipe all the way to the HW tank from the boiler. So we're planning to install a 3rd valve on the HW tank pipe so that can also be switched on/off by Tado.


We'll also use the Ext.Kit for our wireless stat on the ground floor, but we'll hardwire the landing one as we have an easy route down via the pipes to the Tado controller beside the boiler for that one.


Regards,


P.

Perfect plan. Cylinder Thermostat will keep cylinder topped up during the summer or winter, timer really only useful to knock the HW off during holidays, weekends away (☹), or if you have a badly insulated cylinder and only want HW in short timed spurts, 70's style.

paulgrogan.eu

deezell wrote: »

Perfect plan. Cylinder Thermostat will keep cylinder topped up during the summer or winter, timer really only useful to knock the HW off during holidays, weekends away (☹), or if you have a badly insulated cylinder and only want HW in short timed spurts, 70's style.

Super - nah I think I'm taking your advice on the basis that it's easier to just heat the tank of water and keep it hot, unless as you say, we're away for an extended period.


Thanks a mill :-)

Mickeroo

Anyone ever had an issue with a nest thermostat where it's black screen with a small green light blinking at the top?

Google tells me the green light means it's updating software or restarting but it's been like that for a few hours now.

deezell

Mickeroo wrote: »

Anyone ever had an issue with a nest thermostat where it's black screen with a small green light blinking at the top?

Google tells me the green light means it's updating software or restarting but it's been like that for a few hours now.

The wireless signal path between the nest and the Heatlink relay use NEST WEAVE protocol over BLE ( Blue tooth low energy protocol). This is a low enough bit rate transmission, so although the update rate available to the Nest via your home Wi-Fi is plenty fast, the two devices communicate at a much slower rate, so updates take a reasonable time if data has to be passed from the Nest (connected to Wi-Fi) to the Heatlink (BLE). It's generally ok to reboot the Nest if your Wi-Fi connection to it is ropey, even during an update, but first check your connectivity to the Nest via the app, see what it says.
The Tado thermostat for example, has the Wi-Fi connection in the bridge, while the stat only connects to the bridge using 6LoWPAN, a very low energy low bit rate connection, only Kilobits/sec. This is needed because the Tado runs on batteries, as do most other smart stats, so battery life is a priority. A new from the box Tado with old firmware can take overnight to update

Mickeroo

Thanks Deezell. It's just showing as offline in the app at the moment, I tried restarting it manually by holding it down but nothing doing. I can see the screen is on in low light but it's just blank and the led is just blinking away. I left it off the stand for a bit and LED went red but goes back to green as soon as it's back on the stand.

THe light on the heat link is yellow btw so I think that means it doesn't see the stat.

deezell

Mickeroo wrote: »

Thanks Deezell. It's just showing as offline in the app at the moment, I tried restarting it manually by holding it down but nothing doing. I can see the screen is on in low light but it's just blank and the led is just blinking away. I left it off the stand for a bit and LED went red but goes back to green as soon as it's back on the stand.

THe light on the heat link is yellow btw so I think that means it doesn't see the stat.

So it's lost connection. The Nest is actually battery powered with a built in phone style lithium ion battery. This only lasts a couple of hours without being charged from the stand, then the stat will power off. It seems to be trying to power up from the stand, but not managing to get enough to boot up. Afaik any decent phone usb charger will power the nest, in case it's own power adapter has a poor connection. Also, does the existing adaptor plug into the stand? Iirc, the actual Nest also has a mini usb socket at the back, for direct connection. Check this out first.

deezell

Also from a search
How to manually restart if your Nest thermostat is frozen or stuck

Press your thermostat ring and hold it down until the screen turns off (about 10 seconds). Then let go of the ring.
Press and release the ring to turn it back on and complete the restart process. You'll see the Nest logo when it begins to start up.

Mickeroo

Yeah have tried all that, there's no nest logo when it restarts. Just the blank screen and flashing light at the top. I think it's bricked itself somehow tbh.

It's currently plugged into a phone charger so will see does it manage to right itself over the course of the day.

deezell

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yeah have tried all that, there's no nest logo when it restarts. Just the blank screen and flashing light at the top. I think it's bricked itself somehow tbh.

It's currently plugged into a phone charger so will see does it manage to right itself over the course of the day.

If it doesn't recharge and restart, the only other suggestion I can make at this stage is to open up the back cover, then the inner cover and remove the LiPo battery. If you have access to a multi meter check the terminal voltage on it. Should be 3.7V. If the battery is ok, unplugging for a while might be enough to reset the boot of the Nest. It's a long shot, but sometimes works on duff phones. Batteries are available on Amazon and elsewhere.

Mickeroo

deezell wrote: »

If it doesn't recharge and restart, the only other suggestion I can make at this stage is to open up the back cover, then the inner cover and remove the LiPo battery. If you have access to a multi meter check the terminal voltage on it. Should be 3.7V. If the battery is ok, unplugging for a while might be enough to reset the boot of the Nest. It's a long shot, but sometimes works on duff phones. Batteries are available on Amazon and elsewhere.

Cheers. It was installed by electric Ireland only a month ago so I would hope they'd replace it.

deezell

Mickeroo wrote: »

Cheers. It was installed by electric Ireland only a month ago so I would hope they'd replace it.

In that case just invoke the warranty. Could jusr be a dud.

championc

Hi all,

I have a Combi boiler and 10 rads. I have a single zone value fitted to the pipe connecting upstairs, so I can have downstairs or the whole house on. I currently have a Drayton timer, where the DHW connection controls the Upstairs facing zone valve. All 10 rads have TRV's. We have no room stat anywhere.

Is there any Smart system which is worth looking at ? I don't want anything which requires a subscription. Would digital TRV's be much better than analog / mechanical ? Are all of these Smart systems just designed to work with the boiler only and maybe just a few main TRV's

Thanks in advance

deezell

I'm assuming this Drayton timer is a two zone electronic timer. Can post it's model no, plus a picture. You have a combi boiler, (gas?), so again I assume no HW cylinder, HW on demand?

championc

deezell wrote: »

I'm assuming this Drayton timer is a two zone electronic timer. Can post it's model no, plus a picture. You have a combi boiler, (gas?), so again I assume no HW cylinder, HW on demand?

Apologies, the controller is a Grasslin QE2 and the TRV's are Myson (photos attached). And yes, HW is on demand. The Combi is a Vaillant Turbomax 824e

deezell

So upstairs zone valve is on the HW timer, with boiler call/downstairs on the CH timer. I assume the boiler fires when an upstairs event occurs, and this is possible with those type of timers even when there is no direct connection to the boiler from zone valve switching, as by default these timers are supplied in gravity mode, (small switch at the back). What happens then is that the CH ON terminal goes live from a timed event from either zone, but the HW ON terminal is only used to operate the zone valve and bring in the upstairs rads. Normally, zone timers with a gravity mode are designed to be used with the CH circulation pump on zone 2, while zone timing 1 calls the boiler only thus heating HW by gravity, and CH if zone 1 has a timed event. It makes using smart controls with wireless stats a little trickier, as its not likely the zone valve relay microswitch is being used to call the boiler for upstairs events. If you want, you can check the back of the Grasslin to see if the switch is Gravity or Fully Pumped mode. This will determine if the zone fires the boiler independently of the CH terminal on the Grasslin, and will determine how it could be wired with smart stats and their relays.

championc

deezell wrote: »

So upstairs zone valve is on the HW timer, with boiler call/downstairs on the CH timer. I assume the boiler fires when an upstairs event occurs, and this is possible with those type of timers even when there is no direct connection to the boiler from zone valve switching, as by default these timers are supplied in gravity mode, (small switch at the back). What happens then is that the CH ON terminal goes live from a timed event from either zone, but the HW ON terminal is only used to operate the zone valve and bring in the upstairs rads. Normally, zone timers with a gravity mode are designed to be used with the CH circulation pump on zone 2, while zone timing 1 calls the boiler only thus heating HW by gravity, and CH if zone 1 has a timed event. It makes using smart controls with wireless stats a little trickier, as its not likely the zone valve relay microswitch is being used to call the boiler for upstairs events. If you want, you can check the back of the Grasslin to see if the switch is Gravity or Fully Pumped mode. This will determine if the zone fires the boiler independently of the CH terminal on the Grasslin, and will determine how it could be wired with smart stats and their relays.

I wired it myself when I installed the zone valve. It simply opens or closes on triggering, so does nothing with the system itself

deezell

championc wrote: »

I wired it myself when I installed the zone valve. It simply opens or closes on triggering, so does nothing with the system itself

So it depends on the CH timing to be on at the same time intervals in order to fire the boiler?

championc

deezell wrote: »

So it depends on the CH timing to be on at the same time intervals in order to fire the boiler?

Correct. The heating must be on for the upstairs zone "switch" to do anything. I'm sure it can be re-wired if necessary. It's a Sunvic

deezell

The only wiring necessary would be to bring back a switched live output from the Sunvic valve relay to fire the boiler for an upstairs timed event. This would give the upstairs a degree of independence from any timed downstairs events, though with your current setup, downstairs would now heat for both it's own and upstairs timed events, limited by the rad TRVs. If you were to install a general smart stat for the downstairs, and smart TRVs for the downstairs rads, it would now be possible to have independent control of downstairs as a zone, as the addition of the smart TRVs together act as a downstairs zone valve. This would be an easier installation option than having another zone valve fitted to isolate the downstairs CH flow. A single zone thermostat and receiver could be installed for general control of downstairs heating, with smart TRVs paired to this zone to call the boiler on an individual room basis through the stat relay. For upstairs, a similar setup, with a general thermostat operating the upstairs zone valve by its wireless relay, then a SL from the zone valve to call the boiler when the upstairs timing/temperature schedule dictates.
As the simplest option, you can replace your current timer with two smart stat receivers, Netatmo, Hive or Drayton Wiser. Tado also, but only one of these could be connected wirelessly to the receiver to fire the boiler, the other would need to be wired to operate the zone valve at the minimum.
In all cases, the upstairs zone will depend on the downstairs being active to supply heat, so a SL return from the zone valve is necessary in order to call the boiler for upstairs events. Your current TRVs will continue to limit room temperature anyway, and any or all of these can be replaced by smart TRVs to obtain individual room call for heat, or to turn off a room while the zone is heating. If you add smart TRVs to all rads, you will only require a single main stat receiver relay, as the upstairs zone valve could now be locked open, with upstairs flow control individualised on a room basis.
Perhaps a good and inexpesive start might be the Drayton Wiser Kit 3, with 2 wireless stats and a heat hub receiver. This would be a simple DIY install. Progress then to wiring the zone valve to call for heat independent of downstairs timing. Next, adding finer control with smart TRVs and so on. While the option to hear upstairs without sending flow to downstairs rads would require the addition of another plumbed in zone valve to give proper S plan plumbing, or smart TRVs on all downstairs rads, it's probably not a huge issue, as it would be seldom you might want to heat upstairs while completely zoning out downstairs, so additional plumbing probably not needed. You have the luxury of having existing TRV valve bodies already installed on your rads, reducing the cost of individual smart room control to the price of a DIY installed smart TRV, €60 per room more or less as offers appear. Start by looking at the smart stat brands listed above, all TRV capable, and figure out your preferences. For a full on TRV installation, the Honeywell Evohome packet might be attractive, if pricey. Posters here who have invested are very enthusiastic. You could spend hours just tinkering with the screen, instead of watching TV! If you're into smart home stuff, alarms, lights, cameras etc, you'll need to consider do you want a system that can have all these as extras on the brand app, or leave each to its own. Over to you now!

championc

Wow, many thanks for that huge and concise answer. That's provided me with a lot of direction.

One final question if I may - would "smart" TRV's be much more accurate than my current ones ? Or is it more about being able to control rads in an instant, being able to lower, raise, or shut them off ?

deezell

championc wrote: »

Wow, many thanks for that huge and concise answer. That's provided me with a lot of direction.

One final question if I may - would "smart" TRV's be much more accurate than my current ones ? Or is it more about being able to control rads in an instant, being able to lower, raise, or shut them off ?

Using Tado as an example, their wall stats have a granularity of 0.1°, TRVs are 1°. Normal mechanical stats require about plus or minus 3° to throw a switch. Mechanical TRVs are more analogue, closing the valve as the temperature rises and the active sensor material expands. Smart TRVs replicate this, but but using second order calculations will anticipate rising (or falling) room temperature by learning rate of change of temperature, and respond according to the brands own algorithms. That way the room is not cycling hot-cold. I had some great lecturers on dynamic control systems back in the 70's, it's a whole science in itself. Kind of stuff you never forget.

Mickeroo

deezell wrote: »

In that case just invoke the warranty. Could jusr be a dud.

I actually managed to get my dead nest going again this morning surprisingly. I left it off the stand and unplugged for over a day until there was no blinking lights at all on it (it was blinking red for a good while). Then I plugged it in to a USB phone charger and left if for two days. Still no sign of life apart from the blinking green lgiht started up again. I stuck it on the stand this morning though and within a few seconds the little house logo appeared and it powered back up and reconnected.

Seems to be working fine now again. I don't know did it just get stuck doing an update or what.

deezell

More than likely. Letting it drain it's internal battery is like a cold start, removing the battery would have the same effect, though would void warranty. At least it didn't end up as a pretty papepweight

Mickeroo

deezell wrote: »

More than likely. Letting it drain it's internal battery is like a cold start, removing the battery would have the same effect, though would void warranty. At least it didn't end up as a pretty papepweight

Yeah I was cagey about removing the battery while it was still in warranty so I figured this was the next best thing. If it happens again I'll get on to them for a replacement.

olestoepoke

Hey guys looking for advice on a back boiler stove installation. Ive been told that a system link heat genie needs to be installed with it. Ive contacted a few plumbers and none of them seemed confident about installing it. Or are there other options apart from the system link? Any reccomendations on companies or plumbers that a experienced in installing stoves with back boiler via system link? Thanks and PM me of course as per the rules.

deezell

olestoepoke wrote: »

Hey guys looking for advice on a back boiler stove installation. Ive been told that a system link heat genie needs to be installed with it. Ive contacted a few plumbers and none of them seemed confident about installing it. Or are there other options apart from the system link? Any reccomendations on companies or plumbers that a experienced in installing stoves with back boiler via system link? Thanks and PM me of course as per the rules.

Are you running this along with a gas or oil boiler? Have you a HW cylinder or is your HW direct from the oil/ gas boiler?

olestoepoke

deezell wrote: »

Are you running this along with a gas or oil boiler? Have you a HW cylinder or is your HW direct from the oil/ gas boiler?

Hya and thanks for the reply. A gas boiler and a hot water cylinder that were newly installed around 6 years ago knowing that a boiler stove would be installed one day. So all the pipework is there capped ready to go. Need an experienced installer.

deezell

olestoepoke wrote: »

Hya and thanks for the reply. A gas boiler and a hot water cylinder that were newly installed around 6 years ago knowing that a boiler stove would be installed one day. So all the pipework is there capped ready to go. Need an experienced installer.

It depends on how the boiler and cylinder installation was carried out, and what pipework was installed to facilitate later connection of a stove. Is the gas boiler heated water system sealed, or vented? (attic head tank). If vented, this will simplify blending of the two heat sources. Does the cylinder have a spare unused coil? This would provide a direct heat sink for an active stove. It's all about having a mechanism to dissipate stove heat in the event of power failure, to reduce the risk of boiling the heating circuit water. There are some great schematics on NRG Awareness website, which detail the different methods used to blend heat sources. They manufacture a manifold which combines the heated water from both boilers, for distribution to the radiators and HW cylinder. There are many permutations of these systems, but the concept is easily understood.
https://www.nrgawareness.com/
They're based in Cork,

The systemlink heatgenie is a heat exchanger, which is required when the heated water of the gas/oil boiler is not vented, but is closed and pressurised. As the stove must be vented, the heated water from the stove can not be allowed to directly mix with the gas boiler system water. This is similar to the idea that the boiler heated water that enters your HW cylinder is isolated from the actual hot water you get from the cylinder out of the tap.
In order to then blend the heated water from the boiler to the heated water from the stove heat exchanger (or direct from the stove if the gas boiler is vented), a manifold or neutraliser box is needed. These are the models available from NRG Awareness. https://www.nrgawareness.com/product-category/nrg-zone-manifolds/
Systemlink have similar models, and some tube like models known as Spirozone.
https://www.plumbingproducts.ie/system-link/3741-systemlink-spirozone-5.html

The NRG Awareness version if the heat genie is this,
https://www.nrgawareness.com/product-category/system-interlinking/
Similarly expensive to the heat genie, it consists of a heat exchanger, pipe stat, and a couple of circulation pumps, with some pre made pipework. Not a lot of for nearly €800 it has to be said, a good plumber would pull it together from a couple of hundred euros of parts. This the basic principle of the heat exchanger.


Heres a link to a number of schematics for sealed boiler vented stove, as it probably more closely describes your system, assuming your gas boiler is sealed. If not, no heat exchanger required. This information should assist plumbers in assessing your system for upgrade.
https://www.nrgawareness.com/product/nrg-link/

olestoepoke

deezell wrote: »

It depends on how the boiler and cylinder installation was carried out, and what pipework was installed to facilitate later connection of a stove. Is the gas boiler heated water system sealed, or vented? (attic head tank). If vented, this will simplify blending of the two heat sources. Does the cylinder have a spare unused coil? This would provide a direct heat sink for an active stove. It's all about having a mechanism to dissipate stove heat in the event of power failure, to reduce the risk of boiling the heating circuit water. There are some great schematics on NRG Awareness website, which detail the different methods used to blend heat sources. They manufacture a manifold which combines the heated water from both boilers, for distribution to the radiators and HW cylinder. There are many permutations of these systems, but the concept is easily understood.
https://www.nrgawareness.com/
They're based in Cork,

The systemlink heatgenie is a heat exchanger, which is required when the heated water of the gas/oil boiler is not vented, but is closed and pressurised. As the stove must be vented, the heated water from the stove can not be allowed to directly mix with the gas boiler system water. This is similar to the idea that the boiler heated water that enters your HW cylinder is isolated from the actual hot water you get from the cylinder out of the tap.
In order to then blend the heated water from the boiler to the heated water from the stove heat exchanger (or direct from the stove if the gas boiler is vented), a manifold or neutraliser box is needed. These are the models available from NRG Awareness. https://www.nrgawareness.com/product-category/nrg-zone-manifolds/
Systemlink have similar models, and some tube like models known as Spirozone.
https://www.plumbingproducts.ie/system-link/3741-systemlink-spirozone-5.html

The NRG Awareness version if the heat genie is this,
https://www.nrgawareness.com/product-category/system-interlinking/
Similarly expensive to the heat genie, it consists of a heat exchanger, pipe stat, and a couple of circulation pumps, with some pre made pipework. Not a lot of for nearly €800 it has to be said, a good plumber would pull it together from a couple of hundred euros of parts. This the basic principle of the heat exchanger.


Heres a link to a number of schematics for sealed boiler vented stove, as it probably more closely describes your system, assuming your gas boiler is sealed. If not, no heat exchanger required. This information should assist plumbers in assessing your system for upgrade.
https://www.nrgawareness.com/product/nrg-link/

Wow, great info thanks very much for the effort. If you can recommend anyone in and around Dublin thats experienced enough to install these I'd appreciate a PM. Thanks again, great info

deezell

olestoepoke wrote: »

Wow, great info thanks very much for the effort. If you can recommend anyone in and around Dublin thats experienced enough to install these I'd appreciate a PM. Thanks again, great info

Sorry, can't help there, but have these facts to hand if you get someone out to take a look, or email them some of the schematics, see if they know what they're on about. I can understand tradesmen being wary of something like the Heatgenie, presented as it is as a magical 'Black box' solution, when internally it's just a few pumps, pipes, stat and a heat exchanger,(and also a passive thermal operated safety drain sensor and valve).It's all well within the theoretical knowledge of an apprentice. Same goes for the NRG link exchanger, a modest plate exchanger, 2 pumps, a pipe stat , wired to turn on both pumps when the stove water exceeds set point. Nothing there that a plumber couldn't understand. A good one could even put it together himself, but given their hourly rates, it might well be true that they'd need €800 to cover parts and labour.(this is actually part of he sales pitch for the device). Here's the full file on the device,
https://www.nrgawareness.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/NRG-Link-Dual-Pressure-Interlinking-System-Installation-and-Manual-1.pdf
If a plumber or CH installer can't figure out how to go about the job after reading this, I give up.