Home heating automation

deezell

punisher5112 wrote: »

Anyone know what gen it is?

I looked up ppsupplies and there are a few some paper supplier and another plumbing supplies etc.

It says they just launched on amazon.

In guessing it's gen 2 without HW relay on the heatlink interface. You could ask I suppose. You're well covered with Amazon if anything is dodgy.

punisher5112

deezell wrote: »

In guessing it's gen 2 without HW relay on the heatlink interface. You could ask I suppose. You're well covered with Amazon if anything is dodgy.

So it would be like netatamo and can't do hot water just heating??

deezell

KD11 wrote: »

So does the nest only need power running to it?
I am currently redoing all the plumbing and heating systems in my two story semi detached and am looking into installing a nest.

The house currently has an oil boiler outside in a shed at the bottom of the garden with a cable going to a programmer inside the house in a really awkward position.

My plan is to replace the outside boiler with an external boiler closer to the house and zone the house to upstairs, downstairs and HW. I know I will need 2 Nests for this setup (1 for downstairs and HW & 1 for upstairs) but i am not sure what wiring I need to run for this.

Is the heat link that comes with the nest installed at the boiler and then I just need power cable run to where the nests will be going? (1 in Kitchen, 1 in hall upstairs) Do i need to install 2 heatlinks at the boiler?

Does the nest work with external boilers?

My plumber was talking about installing valves on the rads aswell. Are these needed to zone the house?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to wrap my head around all this.

Zoned systems need a thermostat for each zone. This can be all Nests or a Nest for the main living area and any other type for the second zone, smart or dumb. The heat link box would normally be wired to the motorised valve for its zone, these valves in in turn have a relay which fires the boiler when the valve opens. Two zone + HW = 3 zone valves. If the boiler is outside it will be wired back to a junction box where all the wires from the zone valves, pump and heatlink boxes are brought together.
The Nest stats themselves are powered either by a small mains adapter, or wired at low voltage back to it's heatlink. These wires also carry the digital signals from stat to heatlink. Otherwise the Nest connects wirelessly to the heatlink ( but not using wifi). Wifi is used to connect the nest to the router and the internet and from there to your phone app.
Radiator TRVs can be used to individually control the upper temperature of a room. If you put them in every room of a zone you don't need a stat for that zone. Nest don't do smarts TRVs so if you want smart you'll have to go for another brand, with separate app control. TRVs will regulate the temperature while the zone is on, but won't call the boiler to start the zone unless they're smart with a control box. Tado do this very well
Final bit of advice as you're plumbing anew, consider a combi boiler. No need for HW control, no need for cylinder. A single nest can be used for the 2 zones, the Nest stat controlling main living area, and the HW timed relay can control upstairs with either TRVs or a standard stat.
If you must have 3 zones all available on an app have a look at EPH controls smart 3 zone system, know as Ember.

deezell

punisher5112 wrote: »

So it would be like netatamo and can't do hot water just heating??

If its gen 2 it wont have control of the hw. This is not an issue as you can control hw with a cylinder stat and optional timer

punisher5112

deezell wrote: »

If it gen 2 it wont have control of the hw. Thus us notvsn issue as you vsn control hw with a cylinder stat and optional timer

OK cool I honestly thought the nest could.

Obviously that's why they are selling them off cheap so.

I have a netatamo and does the job perfectly on heating only of course.

spuncy

Hi,

I've been trying to figure out which (if any) of the smart thermostats could be used in my house based on the layout but am not sure I've seen a configuration that works. I'm hoping that the Netatmo/Hive/Nest can do it.

There is a gas boiler in the kitchen connected to an Immermat timer clock, fiddledy round face with pins. This controls boiler on or off for the whole house and seems to be a simple switch. The house has a thermostat in the dining/sitting room and another on the landing. These have 2 wires and seem to be only connected to motorised valves in the hot press. The cylinder in the hot press has a thermostat that is also connected to a third motorised valve.

Looking into the Netatmo/Nest/Hive systems, they all seem to assume that the thermostat on the wall is able to call back to the boiler for heat. However, this is not the case here - it would require coordinating both the motorised valve and something at the boiler to turn it on.

This layout was the same in my last house, in which I installed a Conrad/ELV master unit at the boiler and motorised heads on the TRVs in each room (the motorised valves in the hot press were set to bypass). I assumed most houses here were set up in the same way, but haven't seen others mention it.

Is there a way to do this with any of these products or am I missing something?

Thanks

PS This house is rented so unable to do the same again and put in zoned in every room, want to replace the old thermostat/crappy timer back when we move on.

EDIT: Found a lot of what I asked above in other threads on the forum

I will probably go for a single Netatmo to start. I'll put the relay to control the boiler, replacing the clock timer, and the Netatmo thermostat downstairs. Then use the existing thermostats to control the motorised valves upstairs and for hot water to restrict the temps. So kind of single zone for the house but limit to temps. Will see how it might evolve in future then.

Any advice/experience appreciated!

deezell

spuncy wrote: »

Hi,

I've been trying to figure out which (if any) of the smart thermostats could be used in my house based on the layout but am not sure I've seen a configuration that works. I'm hoping that the Netatmo/Hive/Nest can do it.

There is a gas boiler in the kitchen connected to an Immermat timer clock, fiddledy round face with pins. This controls boiler on or off for the whole house and seems to be a simple switch. The house has a thermostat in the dining/sitting room and another on the landing. These have 2 wires and seem to be only connected to motorised valves in the hot press. The cylinder in the hot press has a thermostat that is also connected to a third motorised valve.

Looking into the Netatmo/Nest/Hive systems, they all seem to assume that the thermostat on the wall is able to call back to the boiler for heat. However, this is not the case here - it would require coordinating both the motorised valve and something at the boiler to turn it on......
Is there a way to do this with any of these products or am I missing something ....

The wall thermostat would only wire directly to the boiler in a simple single zone system. Yours is three zone, each zone is governed by a motorised valve actuated by it's thermostat. The actuators on the valves, when they are fully open close a pair of contacts and this contact signal, sometimes 220v or else just contact closure, is connected to the boiler which then fires and pumps hot water through the open zone valve(s). The boiler firing contacts of the zone valves are parallel connected to each other so any valve when open will fire the boiler, but these contacts are isolated from their thermostat input so one stat can't turn on the valve of another zone.
Any of the smart stats can be used to replace one or both of the wall stats. Some like Tado or Netamo have the contacts in the stat, others like Nest have the contacts in a control or link box. Its just a case of replacing the wall stats and connecting the wire pair directly to the new smart stat (or its link box). The smart stat does not directly fire The boiler, it's zone valve does. The mechanical timer can be set to always on and the smart stat(s) will take over the timing function. See earlier answers for wiring nest heatlink box to the original wall stat wires where they connect to the zone valve.

deezell

spuncy wrote: »

EDIT: Found a lot of what I asked above in other threads on the forum

I will probably go for a single Netatmo to start. I'll put the relay to control the boiler, replacing the clock timer, and the Netatmo thermostat downstairs. Then use the existing thermostats to control the motorised valves upstairs and for hot water to restrict the temps. So kind of single zone for the house but limit to temps. Will see how it might evolve in future then.

Any advice/experience appreciated!

Don't replace clock timer, just set to always on and replace both heating stats with smart. The HW will work away controlled by it's own stat, theres no great saving in having it on a timer, but if you install a nest you will have a pair of HW timed contacts to insert between the cylinder stat and the HW zone valve. TIming and temperature control of the heating zones separately would require two smart stats unless you want to open both valves together and create a single zone. There would be little point in leaving in one of the old stats in the circuit other than as a means to cap that zones temperature at a point below what it might reach when the single smart stat is on.

spuncy

Thanks for the response deezell. Makes sense - wasn't aware the valves could control the boiler like this. I tested having the boiler on constant and turning down all the dumb thermostats to close the valves, but it still pumped heat around downstairs - that motorised valve seems to be broken, so will get that sorted first.

The plan then would be to get two of the Nest/Hive/Netatmo thermostats and replace the dumb thermostats on the wall. These seem to have 2 wires only coming into them so presume they can handle the load of the motorised valves. Will go back over some of the other posts in other threads on this. It's looking like Netatmo at the moment based on price (and works with Google Home) but will see how things drop in the next few days!

deezell

Most Actuators can be removed easily from the valves to test that they're working electrically and to see if the valve mechanism itself is stuck. Good luck!

skerry

deezell wrote: »

TP5 is a 2 wire connection, Common and N/O wires, straight swap to the tado. Just make sure to knock off boiler mains as more than likely there's 220v on one wire. If you can use a phase tester screwdriver you'll be ok. Careful now as Fr. Dougal would say.

Tado arrived today and looks brand new more or less. It's in the box with all leads etc and the little yellow pullout thing is still covering where the cables go. Cheers for the heads up on the Maplin ones. Just need to figure out how to check firmware on it now to see if it needs update (guessing it will).

Just tinkering with the setup on the laptop and I'm at the stage where its asking for what type of boiler I have. Any idea how exact it needs to be as the boiler is in my Aga and hard to get at the model number.

I'm told its a standard oil burner same as in a Stanley or Rayburn range. Any idea if it will make much difference if I just ballpark it and pick one of the Stanley boiler models, presume they are all based on similar design?

deezell

skerry wrote: »

Tado arrived today and looks brand new more or less. It's in the box with all leads etc and the little yellow pullout thing is still covering where the cables go. Cheers for the heads up on the Maplin ones. Just need to figure out how to check firmware on it now to see if it needs update (guessing it will).

Just tinkering with the setup on the laptop and I'm at the stage where its asking for what type of boiler I have. Any idea how exact it needs to be as the boiler is in my Aga and hard to get at the model number.

I'm told its a standard oil burner same as in a Stanley or Rayburn range. Any idea if it will make much difference if I just ballpark it and pick one of the Stanley boiler models, presume they are all based on similar design?

Yes, it's a standard oil burner with a 2 wire stat which is fired by closing it's Switched Live circuit. You'll be wiring it in in place of an existing 2 wire stat, so the install instructions are standard. It can be a bit of a nuisance if they don't recognise your boiler or existing stat as they will take some time to research it, and so not proceed to 'close' your installation until they issue appropriate install instructions. Because they didn't have my original timer stat controller ( systemlink homezone) on their database, or my new firebird enviromax boiler, they said they were 'preparing my installation instructions', and my install, em, stalled. I had to inform them I had finished the install using the generic instructions and would they proceed to treat my install as complete. Once this was done my stat updated with the new firmware and all functions on the app worked.

deezell

Firmware version will show on the App under settings/heating/smart thermostat once you've registeted the serial no. of the stat and connected the hub and paired the stat to it. Some users have had to request Tado to push the new firmware on. Currently V47.7 , these old stock stats were at V11.x in some cases.

CHealy

Just want to see if anyone has any experience in being in a similar situation to myself. Im currently in the middle of a full renovation of a two story 3 bed house, literally everything new except for the walls. We've just had the 1st fix for plumbing and electrics and we'll have a combi gas boiler with 2 heating zones (upstairs/downstairs), now at the same time the electritian has wired for two thermostats in both zones but I obviously want a smart thermostat to control the entire thing. What would be best for me in this scenario? Iv done some research and Im leaning towards Nest/Netatmo but I suppose my main question would be is there a need for the two thermostats wired on the walls? Will these products allow for zoned heating?

deezell

CHealy wrote: »

Just want to see if anyone has any experience in being in a similar situation to myself. Im currently in the middle of a full renovation of a two story 3 bed house, literally everything new except for the walls. We've just had the 1st fix for plumbing and electrics and we'll have a combi gas boiler with 2 heating zones (upstairs/downstairs), now at the same time the electritian has wired for two thermostats in both zones but I obviously want a smart thermostat to control the entire thing. What would be best for me in this scenario? Iv done some research and Im leaning towards Nest/Netatmo but I suppose my main question would be is there a need for the two thermostats wired on the walls? Will these products allow for zoned heating?

One stat per zone. If you have only a single stat or smart stat then it turns on and off both zones, so you have one zone. Smart stats allow you to move away from timer controllers, but if you have two zones you will need two stats. With Tado, theres one thermostat in the starter kit, about €250, then add an extra stat, about €120. V2 kits still available for £129 on Amazon, extra stat for £99.
Ember by EPH is a smart version of their traditional zoned timer unit with wirelessly connected stats. 2 zone is about €246, but I don't think they have the range of smart features that Nest and Tado do.
Nest is really good but buying two Nests will set you back a bit.
There's Drayton, Honeywell, Netamo, Hive and a few others, you'll need to do a bit of reading to determine how good are the features, the hardware, and the cost of a two stat system. With the combi system you're free of the need for hot water timing, so no need for extension boxes/kits. with Nest this box comes with the stat, and has switching control for the heating, and timing for the HW. You could use a single nest to get smart stat control of one zone and timed control of another which could have a normal thermostat on the wall.
Netamo or Tado would seem to me to be the best choice for your system, as the stats just go on the wall where the normal dumb stats would be, no extensions boxes required, just the wireless connection to the tiny router connected hub.

skerry

deezell wrote: »

skerry wrote: »

Tado arrived today and looks brand new more or less. It's in the box with all leads etc and the little yellow pullout thing is still covering where the cables go. Cheers for the heads up on the Maplin ones. Just need to figure out how to check firmware on it now to see if it needs update (guessing it will).

Just tinkering with the setup on the laptop and I'm at the stage where its asking for what type of boiler I have. Any idea how exact it needs to be as the boiler is in my Aga and hard to get at the model number.

I'm told its a standard oil burner same as in a Stanley or Rayburn range. Any idea if it will make much difference if I just ballpark it and pick one of the Stanley boiler models, presume they are all based on similar design?

Yes, it's a standard oil burner with a 2 wire stat which is fired by closing it's Switched Live circuit. You'll be wiring it in in place of an existing 2 wire stat, so the install instructions are standard. It can be a bit of a nuisance if they don't recognise your boiler or existing stat as they will take some time to research it, and so not proceed to 'close' your installation until they issue appropriate install instructions. Because they didn't have my original timer stat controller ( systemlink homezone) on their database, or my new firebird enviromax boiler, they said they were 'preparing my installation instructions', and my install, em, stalled. I had to inform them I had finished the install using the generic instructions and would they proceed to treat my install as complete. Once this was done my stat updated with the new firmware and all functions on the app worked.

Thanks for the advice Deezell, appreciated as always. 

So you reckon there's no harm in selecting one of the Stanley burners they have listed as they are all the same principle? 

I just wasn't sure if ballparking it would affect the operation of the stat somehow but if its only a straight swap out of my TP5 wall stat and they only need the boiler info to determine that install procedure then seems OK. Will try tonight but can't see myself getting at the model number of the boiler that's in there. 

Will enter the Stanley boiler into the web app tonight and see how far I get and if I get install instructions I might make a stab at it over the weekend (a 'be careful not to electrocute myself kind of stab')

CHealy

deezell wrote: »

One stat per zone. If you have only a single stat or smart stat then it turns on and off both zones, so you have one zone. Smart stats allow you to move away from timer controllers, but if you have two zones you will need two stats. With Tado, theres one thermostat in the starter kit, about €250, then add an extra stat, about €120. V2 kits still available for £129 on Amazon, extra stat for £99.
Ember by EPH is a smart version of their traditional zoned timer unit with wirelessly connected stats. 2 zone is about €246, but I don't think they have the range of smart features that Nest and Tado do.
Nest is really good but buying two Nests will set you back a bit.
There's Drayton, Honeywell, Netamo, Hive and a few others, you'll need to do a bit of reading to determine how good are the features, the hardware, and the cost of a two stat system. With the combi system you're free of the need for hot water timing, so no need for extension boxes/kits. with Nest this box comes with the stat, and has switching control for the heating, and timing for the HW. You could use a single nest to get smart stat control of one zone and timed control of another which could have a normal thermostat on the wall.
Netamo or Tado would seem to me to be the best choice for your system, as the stats just go on the wall where the normal dumb stats would be, no extensions boxes required, just the wireless connection to the tiny router connected hub.

Thanks a million for that info deezell, very helpful. I'll research more into what you've advised, if it did come down to it would you say choosing between lets say Tado and Netatmo would be personal choice or does one have a distinct advantage over the other? Buying the 2 stats is coming in at in and around the same price for both so I'll be spending that much either way and thats ok.

bk

CHealy wrote: »

Thanks a million for that info deezell, very helpful. I'll research more into what you've advised, if it did come down to it would you say choosing between lets say Tado and Netatmo would be personal choice or does one have a distinct advantage over the other? Buying the 2 stats is coming in at in and around the same price for both so I'll be spending that much either way and thats ok.

Pretty much personal preference for your particular set up. I've a Netatmo and deezell has Tado.

On Amazon:
Netatmo is currently £99
Tado v2 is £129
Tado v3 is £199

One thing, if you want to make these portable (rather then mounted on the wall where the current thermostat is), Netatmo can do this out of the box, while Tado needs the extension kit that costs another £75

I love my Netatmo, but it does have one small flaw. If you use the physical button on the Thermostat a lot, it might break the button. It kind of a tilt action and I'm not crazy with that. Tado has better physical buttons by the looks of it. If you plan on mostly using the app or voice control (alexa/ghome) then it isn't an issue.

deezell

CHealy wrote: »

Thanks a million for that info deezell, very helpful. I'll research more into what you've advised, if it did come down to it would you say choosing between lets say Tado and Netatmo would be personal choice or does one have a distinct advantage over the other? Buying the 2 stats is coming in at in and around the same price for both so I'll be spending that much either way and thats ok.

I agree, it can be personal choice.. I've installed Tado, Nest and system link (non smart) and EPH (non smart) for myself and family in recent times, each has their own charm. I really like the minimalist look of the Tado. The Netamo looks and reads very good. The Hive is as ugly as they get.

bk

deezell wrote: »

I agree, it can be personal choice.. I've installed Tado, Nest and system link (non smart) and EPH (non smart) for myself and family in recent times, each has their own charm. I really like the minimalist look of the Tado. The Netamo looks and reads very good. The Hive is as ugly as they get.

Yep and I just last week recommended Tado to my sister even though a bit more expensive, so that she has the option of a hot water zone in future.

BTW deezell, I meant to ask you, do you have any idea how much it costs to get a HW zone valve installed? And is it worth it?

Her hot water cylinder is now just heated when the rads are on or by immersion. Her showers are also electric! To be honest, it all doesn't sound very efficient.

I'm recommending the Tado plus Smart TRV's for upstairs so she can create an upstairs zone. At the moment upstairs ends up far too hot compared to a normal temp downstairs.

sharkman

bk wrote: »

Yep and I just last week recommended Tado to my sister even though a bit more expensive, so that she has the option of a hot water zone in future.

BTW deezell, I meant to ask you, do you have any idea how much it costs to get a HW zone valve installed? And is it worth it?

Her hot water cylinder is now just heated when the rads are on or by immersion. Her showers are also electric! To be honest, it all doesn't sound very efficient.

I'm recommending the Tado plus Smart TRV's for upstairs so she can create an upstairs zone. At the moment upstairs ends up far too hot compared to a normal temp downstairs.

I had plumber fit the extra valve and Tado extension kit , all in it set me back €400 . Offset by a grant for €600 .

deezell

sharkman wrote: »

I had plumber fit the extra valve and Tado extension kit , all in it set me back €400 . Offset by a grant for €600 .

Are you saying it cost €1000 before Grant?

bk

sharkman wrote: »

I had plumber fit the extra valve and Tado extension kit , all in it set me back €400 . Offset by a grant for €600 .

I assume that was under the home energy grant? Did your plumber buy and supply the Tado or did you yourself?

I've been wondering about those grants, no good for me, but could be an option for my sister and parents to get a modern control system, TVR's etc. But I'd want Tado or similar and not anything a plumber wanted to give.

Anyone buy a Tado or Netatmo, etc. under this grant? Thanks.

deezell

Tado ext. box €85, 3 port valve €60-80. You'll need a cylinder stat also, about €15-20. €800+ for labour? Nothing surprises me where grants are concerned.

sharkman

deezell wrote: »

Are you saying it cost €1000 before Grant?

Sorry , Tado extension was €100 approx and plumber charged €320 all in to fit and set up . Also needed was a thermostat on the tank .

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

Yep and I just last week recommended Tado to my sister even though a bit more expensive, so that she has the option of a hot water zone in future.

BTW deezell, I meant to ask you, do you have any idea how much it costs to get a HW zone valve installed? And is it worth it?

Her hot water cylinder is now just heated when the rads are on or by immersion. Her showers are also electric! To be honest, it all doesn't sound very efficient.

I'm recommending the Tado plus Smart TRV's for upstairs so she can create an upstairs zone. At the moment upstairs ends up far too hot compared to a normal temp downstairs.

Hi bk,

The neat does hot water zones though, I have it doing mine ?

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Hi bk,

The neat does hot water zones though, I have it doing mine ?

I don't think it does. As in a separate hot water zone where you can control water going to the boiler separate from the rads.

If you have a combi boiler or you don't have a separate hot water zone (as in your hot water just always heats the water in the tank) then Netatmo will work with them, but it isn't really controlling the hot water.

Or have you figured out a way to do it? Be really interested if you have?

deezell wrote: »

Tado ext. box €85, 3 port valve €60-80. You'll need a cylinder stat also, about €15-20. €800+ for labour? Nothing surprises me where grants are concerned.

Do you think it is worth it. Specially for a person who uses electric showers?

Thing is she could get the Netatmo for free with Energia. And I could install the TVR's for her later. Free is hard to beat!

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

I don't think it does. As in a separate hot water zone where you can control water going to the boiler separate from the rads.

If you have a combi boiler or you don't have a separate hot water zone (as in your hot water just always heats the water in the tank) then Netatmo will work with them, but it isn't really controlling the hot water.

Or have you figured out a way to do it? Be really interested if you have?



Do you think it is worth it. Specially for a person who uses electric showers?

Thing is she could get the Netatmo for free with Energia. And I could install the TVR's for her later. Free is hard to beat!

Hi bk,

Yep definitely. I have a three zone system, controlled by two nest stats.

The first stat controls the living zone and the water zone (separately and independently) and the second stat does the bedroom zone only.

All three zones are indeoendtly controllable from nest and all three can have their own schedules etc

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Hi bk,

Yep definitely. I have a three zone system, controlled by two nest stats.

The first stat controls the living zone and the water zone (separately and independently) and the second stat does the bedroom zone only.

All three zones are indeoendtly controllable from nest and all three can have their own schedules etc

Ah, yes, that makes sense, in your post you said "Neat", probably silly spell checker, I thought you meant Netatmo.

Yes, Nest supports hot water zone. Netatmo doesn't.

Nest though lacks smart TRV's, which my sister would really benefit from.

Tado is probably the most complete system, with multi zone support, hot water support and smart TVR's. But it looks like it would cost more then Netatmo form Energia, so I'm not sure if it is worth it for her.

Netatmo + smart TVR's would fix her main issue, upstairs being too warm and given that she mostly uses electric showers, Im' not sure she would be too bothered about hot water zone.

ctlsleh

deezell wrote: »

Tado ext. box €85, 3 port valve €60-80. You'll need a cylinder stat also, about €15-20. €800+ for labour? Nothing surprises me where grants are concerned.

What do recommend for the cylinder stat, I don’t have any wiring at mine, there was never a thermostat.......I have 2xNests....they are wired up,downstairs at the boiler.....?