Home heating automation

paulgrogan.eu · 03-09-2020 2:11pm

I notice the latest app update for Tado mentioned support for new Tado devices. Does anyone know what's coming on stream?

spicymchaggis · 03-09-2020 4:25pm

First off appreciate anyone who takes the time to give some feedback here.

So I'm looking at replacing an ancient Grant 50-80 slimline oil boiler that is an external boiler house in a house that was built in the early '80s. It takes a good amount to time to heat the rads in the house, a flush would probably help.

The current system in a single zone, all on or all off. Getting multi zones fitted would probably involve extensive work.
We recently had a gas line run to the house.
There are 8 rads in the house, 3 downstairs, 4 upstairs, and 1 in the converted attic.
I'm looking at switching to a combi boiler as we only have one bathroom and the sink in the kitchen.
Are there any recommendations as to which boilers or a different type?

What type of smart system would recommend for a setup like this? Hive / nest / evohome / Drayton etc...
Recommend smart TRVs?
What grants are available for a configuration like this?

Once again, any help appreciated.

championc · 03-09-2020 7:19pm

spicymchaggis wrote: »

First off appreciate anyone who takes the time to give some feedback here.

So I'm looking at replacing an ancient Grant 50-80 slimline oil boiler that is an external boiler house in a house that was built in the early '80s. It takes a good amount to time to heat the rads in the house, a flush would probably help.

The current system in a single zone, all on or all off. Getting multi zones fitted would probably involve extensive work.
We recently had a gas line run to the house.
There are 8 rads in the house, 3 downstairs, 4 upstairs, and 1 in the converted attic.
I'm looking at switching to a combi boiler as we only have one bathroom and the sink in the kitchen.
Are there any recommendations as to which boilers or a different type?

What type of smart system would recommend for a setup like this? Hive / nest / evohome / Drayton etc...
Recommend smart TRVs?
What grants are available for a configuration like this?

Once again, any help appreciated.

I've a Vaillant 824e Combi, for about the past 10 years - brilliant. I've recently installed the Tado Smart Thermostat, the Entension Kit (to control the boiler since the room stat wasn't wired) and Tado Smart TRV's on all Rads.

limnam · 03-09-2020 7:21pm

spicymchaggis wrote: »

First off appreciate anyone who takes the time to give some feedback here.

So I'm looking at replacing an ancient Grant 50-80 slimline oil boiler that is an external boiler house in a house that was built in the early '80s. It takes a good amount to time to heat the rads in the house, a flush would probably help.

The current system in a single zone, all on or all off. Getting multi zones fitted would probably involve extensive work.
We recently had a gas line run to the house.
There are 8 rads in the house, 3 downstairs, 4 upstairs, and 1 in the converted attic.
I'm looking at switching to a combi boiler as we only have one bathroom and the sink in the kitchen.
Are there any recommendations as to which boilers or a different type?

What type of smart system would recommend for a setup like this? Hive / nest / evohome / Drayton etc...
Recommend smart TRVs?
What grants are available for a configuration like this?

Once again, any help appreciated.

Second one for Tado.

Really nice system and you can zone at the rad level

championc · 03-09-2020 7:33pm

And just balance your rads. In brief, if any get too hot, close down the LOCKSHIELD valve a half turn. That forces the circulating water off to another rad. Similarly, you would open by a half turn for those which never heat up. Gradually, you'll get to the point that they all heat at the same rate

strangel00p · 03-09-2020 7:59pm

deezell wrote: »

Do you have a wall thermostat? Do you have more than one? Do you have a controller box with programable heating times, and possibly programable Hot water times.
Do you have a HW cylinder in a hot press, or does you HW come directly from the gas boiler on demand. The above will determine the ease with which a Neat stat can be connected.

Thanks Deezell and championc for the advice.

I have just 1 thermostat in the hall. There is a timer control on the gas boiler and I have a HW cylinder in the hotpress. It would be grand to get an electrician to install a nest thermostat in the hall, but I'm not sure if this is a big and expensive job to do.

spicymchaggis · 03-09-2020 8:06pm

Cheers for the feedback. Was leaning towards Honeywell evohome or Tado. Is there any requirement on the boiler for these in particular? Does the boiler need to have opentherm?
Does fitting all rads with TRVs count towards SEAI grant for upgrading controls?

championc · 03-09-2020 8:29pm

spicymchaggis wrote: »

Cheers for the feedback. Was leaning towards Honeywell evohome or Tado. Is there any requirement on the boiler for these in particular? Does the boiler need to have opentherm?
Does fitting all rads with TRVs count towards SEAI grant for upgrading controls?

Tado supply the wiring diagram for all boilers. If they don't have the wiring details in their library, they get them for you. So you could install Tado now to even work with the oil boiler

As was confirmed to me a page or two back, an installer must install and sign off on their install.

deezell · 03-09-2020 9:10pm

strangel00p wrote: »

Thanks Deezell and championc for the advice.

I have just 1 thermostat in the hall. There is a timer control on the gas boiler and I have a HW cylinder in the hotpress. It would be grand to get an electrician to install a nest thermostat in the hall, but I'm not sure if this is a big and expensive job to do.

It's a simple enough install. I'm guessing you can have HW only if you turn on the timer and turn the stat down. This suggests a gravity mode system, timer operates the boiler and the stat operates the circulation pump. HW is heated without the pump. The Nest can be wired easily to control the boiler and circulation pump in gravity mode.

strangel00p · 03-09-2020 10:48pm

deezell wrote: »

It's a simple enough install. I'm guessing you can have HW only if you turn on the timer and turn the stat down. This suggests a gravity mode system, timer operates the boiler and the stat operates the circulation pump. HW is heated without the pump. The Nest can be wired easily to control the boiler and circulation pump in gravity mode.

Thanks Deezell

garo · 03-09-2020 11:29pm

spicymchaggis wrote: »

Cheers for the feedback. Was leaning towards Honeywell evohome or Tado. Is there any requirement on the boiler for these in particular? Does the boiler need to have opentherm?
Does fitting all rads with TRVs count towards SEAI grant for upgrading controls?

No need for OpenTherm. Both can work with any boiler at all. Old boilers that are on/off work perfectly. i got the Honeywell Evohome from Electric Ireland - 12 radiator install. Cost me 1600 after grant. Would be cheaper for you with fewer rads. But its the Rolls Royce and a fantastic system. A lot of people here have installed Tado and some have even done a DIY with it. I would go for one or the other or maybe Drayton Wiser.

I think for controls grant you need to go from a system with no controls which your on/off system is. So yes you should qualify as long as you install a system to control. Either smart TRVs or a thermostat and zones. As long as you get an SEAI registered installer who is willing to do the paperwork, you can claim a grant.

spicymchaggis · 04-09-2020 2:03am

garo wrote: »

No need for OpenTherm. Both can work with any boiler at all. Old boilers that are on/off work perfectly. i got the Honeywell Evohome from Electric Ireland - 12 radiator install. Cost me 1600 after grant. Would be cheaper for you with fewer rads. But its the Rolls Royce and a fantastic system. A lot of people here have installed Tado and some have even done a DIY with it. I would go for one or the other or maybe Drayton Wiser.

I think for controls grant you need to go from a system with no controls which your on/off system is. So yes you should qualify as long as you install a system to control. Either smart TRVs or a thermostat and zones. As long as you get an SEAI registered installer who is willing to do the paperwork, you can claim a grant.

Perfect, thank you

Brusna · 04-09-2020 10:29am

Another Drayton Wiser system question.

I have the dual heating and hot water system. I’m thinking about adding the smart trv’s to the upstairs rads. So the question is what to do with the upstairs thermostat. It’s in the landing and there’s no rad in the landing. Does it act as a master control for the upstairs circuit or will it not be needed. Thanks.

deezell · 04-09-2020 11:50am

Brusna wrote: »

Another Drayton Wiser system question.

I have the dual heating and hot water system. I’m thinking about adding the smart trv’s to the upstairs rads. So the question is what to do with the upstairs thermostat. It’s in the landing and there’s no rad in the landing. Does it act as a master control for the upstairs circuit or will it not be needed. Thanks.

I'm assuming the TRVs will be paired to the upstairs zone receiver relay, and would therefore open the zone valve thus calling the boiler. The stat would act for all non TRV rads. I've not fully read the wiser TRV integration. With Tado the zone stat is the relay, and must remain, though it's temperature measuring function can be disabled in favour of one of the associated stats, and vice versa.

lucast2007us · 04-09-2020 12:39pm

Are electric boilers popular in Ireland?
I like the idea of getting rid of the oil and gas is not available where I live.
Would the water be hot instantly with the electric boiler?

garo · 04-09-2020 12:45pm

Would be quite expensive running costs. Comp-ared to Gas day time electricity is about 3x more expensive for heating. If looking at an electric solution you should consider a heat pump instead which though it has a higher upfront cost would use about 3-4x less electricity.

Brusna · 04-09-2020 1:08pm

deezell wrote: »

I'm assuming the TRVs will be paired to the upstairs zone receiver relay, and would therefore open the zone valve thus calling the boiler. The stat would act for all non TRV rads. I've not fully read the wiser TRV integration. With Tado the zone stat is the relay, and must remain, though it's temperature measuring function can be disabled in favour of one of the associated stats, and vice versa.

The plan would be to put smart trv’s on all the rads on the circuit and they would be paired with heat hub C3 (upstairs circuit).

I’m thinking that the existing stat will have to be taken off the system or left there and set to off because If the landing is cooler than the rooms it could call the zone valve to open even though all the trv’s are closed so there would be no place for the water to go.

deezell · 04-09-2020 1:16pm

Brusna wrote: »

The plan would be to put smart trv’s on all the rads on the circuit and they would be paired with heat hub C3 (upstairs circuit).

I’m thinking that the existing stat will have to be taken off the system or left there and set to off because If the landing is cooler than the rooms it could call the zone valve to open even though all the trv’s are closed so there would be no place for the water to go.

That sounds correct. It's just another device on the hub. If you TRV the entire zone it has no function. Easily tested if you get a few TRVs to start with. Do your rads have existing mechanical TRVs or just rotary valves? If the latter you will need to replace with TRV valve bodies.

Brusna · 04-09-2020 1:44pm

deezell wrote: »

That sounds correct. It's just another device on the hub. If you TRV the entire zone it has no function. Easily tested if you get a few TRVs to start with. Do your rads have existing mechanical TRVs or just rotary valves? If the latter you will need to replace with TRV valve bodies.

Thanks for confirming that. Yeah I recently changed all the valves to mechanical trv’s with this plan in mind.

deezell · 04-09-2020 3:04pm

Brusna wrote: »

Thanks for confirming that. Yeah I recently changed all the valves to mechanical trv’s with this plan in mind.

You're way ahead of the curve. There were some serious deals on the Drayton TRVs a while back, though currently only £40 in Amazon and B&Q UK. €50 here in Screwfix.

captainshamroc · 04-09-2020 4:37pm

After 2 years in a big single zone house with only a single thermostat in the living room I finally upgraded my heating.
I had Nest my previous home and found it great but it was a small house and we never had more that 2 rads on so I need more control now .

I was initially was going with Honeywell as I wanted individual control of most rooms as having a bunch of rads on all the time is a waste and 'some' people forget to turn off rads when rooms are not in use. Electric Ireland were doing a special at one stage on Honeywell and were looking for €1800 all in after grants. All rads needed to be done according to them to receive the grants. It would work out about €1200 for hardware so if doing it myself so I needed to decide on how much my time was worth. It seemed a good, reliable system with some limitations and some questions around future features. Its so long ago now I actually forget what these were but I had spent a good bit of time on Honeywell/uk plumbing forums. I eventually decided against as it only had 12 zones programable and I had 14 rads and signal between base unit and rads was a concern.

Then looked at Drayton Wiser honestly because of cost but it seemed fairly plug and play and they were doing updates and features regularly. It also had as many zones as I wanted and simple extenders if the signal strength became a problem.
I found out that to get a heating grant you need separate hot water and heating circuits so unless I changed that I wouldn't get anything. With an attic conversion including a bathroom/shower taking up all the attic space, to put hot water on a separate circuit would cost more than the grants so I decided to work only towards what I wanted and ignore grants.

I spent a few weekends adding trvs to all rads. A lot of the rads are old and the valves stick so the plastic knobs break fairly easily. They needed replacing anyway. Myson petite trvs are decent quality, fit the Drayton trv heads and cost about €11 from my local plumbing merchant.
Next step was to add the boiler controller. £135 for the one zone kit including a room thermostat and 2 trv heads in one of the regular Drayton sales on Amazon ages ago. Also bought 3 other trv heads at £35 each. Disconnected the old thermostat, tested the circuit, removed the manual clock and downloaded the boiler manual. The Drayton single zone heat hub was very easy to install. Once I had sketched out the wiring diagram it was a 20 minute job to wire and mount the hub.
Adding the thermostat and trvs to the Wiser heat app was seamless and took a minute or two each.
All in all a real easy system to install and by only adding 5 trvs in where I need them it’s a very cheap way of getting 7 day scheduling, thermostat controlled rooms and remote access which is my most used feature.

TRV’s cost ~ €150
Heat hub with controls for 3 rooms ~€150
3 extra trvs ~ $115
So around €415 total for what I need and I’ll probably add a few more trv’s here and there when they are on sale.

I guess there will be a bit of testing once the winter comes but from what I have seen so far I’m quite happy for a very cost effective solution.

Brusna · 04-09-2020 4:47pm

deezell wrote: »

You're way ahead of the curve. There were some serious deals on the Drayton TRVs a while back, though currently only £40 in Amazon and B&Q UK. €50 here in Screwfix.

They are good value at the moment alright but I’ve seen them as low as £34 on Amazon during sales.

One negative about changing to the smart trv’s is the time it takes to make changes to schedules will be a lot more as instead of one zone I’ll have five with only one of those different to the other four. But each zone or room will have to be set individually.

It’s a pity there isn’t a way to setup and save schedules for different uses, say one for work/school days when everyone is out during the day and another for holidays when people are at home. Then just select the different schedules as needed.

deezell · 06-09-2020 11:05am

Brusna wrote: »

They are good value at the moment alright but I’ve seen them as low as £34 on Amazon during sales.

One negative about changing to the smart trv’s is the time it takes to make changes to schedules will be a lot more as instead of one zone I’ll have five with only one of those different to the other four. But each zone or room will have to be set individually.

It’s a pity there isn’t a way to setup and save schedules for different uses, say one for work/school days when everyone is out during the day and another for holidays when people are at home. Then just select the different schedules as needed.

Is it possible on the Drayton app to group devices, so they all share the same schedule? On Tado you can add TRVs to a zone, they'll use their own temperature measurment, but take their settungs from the common schedule. Otherwise it's nightmare. Imagine a 7 day schedule with maybe 10 TRVs and stats, that's 70 daily schedules to edit. I've only Sat, Sun, Mon-Fri, on two zones. Thats still 6 schedules, plus the Away schedules when out.
Perhaps the Drayton Away feature will provide the functionality you need. I note they're flagging improvements in this area with the introduction of IFTTT integration.
https://wiser.draytoncontrols.co.uk/blog/ifttt-meet-wiser

peposhi · 06-09-2020 1:45pm

I had Climote heating controls in my previous house and loved it.
Now I wish to install it in my new place and I thought of going the DIY way.
I can get a second hand unit, replace the current heating controls (standard 3 zone one) and contact Climote to activate. The questions is - do they allow such option or it has to be installed by them, sim-card supplied by them and all the rest? Will be contacting them next week over it, just hoped someone on here has experience on this road and may share if there're any catches/obstacles to be aware of...

deezell · 06-09-2020 6:57pm

peposhi wrote: »

I had Climote heating controls in my previous house and loved it.
Now I wish to install it in my new place and I thought of going the DIY way.
I can get a second hand unit, replace the current heating controls (standard 3 zone one) and contact Climote to activate. The questions is - do they allow such option or it has to be installed by them, sim-card supplied by them and all the rest? Will be contacting them next week over it, just hoped someone on here has experience on this road and may share if there're any catches/obstacles to be aware of...

Why would you install Climote? Why would you pay subs through a SIM card. No geolocation, open window detection, climate adjustment, OpenTherm, TRVs, it's basically a digitised 3 zone timer.
Get a smart system, Drayton or Hive or Tado. Drayton wiser kit 3 ideal for a swap in replacement, comes with 2 real stats to put in your zone locations, not just the one built into the controller which may be in a poor location for measuring zone temperature.

bobbyg · 06-09-2020 7:21pm

I am in the process of doing a house extension and attic conversion, we are switching to a combi boiler and changing all the current rads to new ones. I am wondering what would be our best option for smart controls. We have google home throughout the house so would the nest thermostat be the best option. Does this allow us zone the heating, sorry I am completely clueless with this sort of stuff.

peposhi · 06-09-2020 8:12pm

deezell wrote: »

Why would you install Climote? Why would you pay subs through a SIM card. No geolocation, open window detection, climate adjustment, OpenTherm, TRVs, it's basically a digitised 3 zone timer.
Get a smart system, Drayton or Hive or Tado. Drayton wiser kit 3 ideal for a swap in replacement, comes with 2 real stats to put in your zone locations, not just the one built into the controller which may be in a poor location for measuring zone temperature.

Reasons... well, I’m an ordinary man who knows little about remote heating controls I’ve used Climote before, I was very happy with it and feel confident I can do the swap by myself with no plumber involved.
Of all the names you’ve mentioned I’ve heard only about Hive but have no knowledge nor experience to judge...
Will have a look at the ones you suggest

peposhi · 06-09-2020 8:34pm

deezell wrote: »

Why would you install Climote? Why would you pay subs through a SIM card. No geolocation, open window detection, climate adjustment, OpenTherm, TRVs, it's basically a digitised 3 zone timer.
Get a smart system, Drayton or Hive or Tado. Drayton wiser kit 3 ideal for a swap in replacement, comes with 2 real stats to put in your zone locations, not just the one built into the controller which may be in a poor location for measuring zone temperature.

Had a quick look at the prices... ScrewFix have the Drayton yoke for €235. The Climote I found would cost me €50 and whatever yearly subscription there will be...

deezell · 06-09-2020 8:50pm

bobbyg wrote: »

I am in the process of doing a house extension and attic conversion, we are stitching to a combi boiler and chagning all the current rads to new ones. I am wondering what would be our best option for smart controls. We have google home throughout the house so would the nest thermostat be the best option. Does this allow us zone the heating, sorry I am completely clueless with this sort of stuff.

Zoning means being able to turn on and off groups of individual radiators separately from each other. This is achieved using motorised valves controlled by a combination of timers and thermostats The valves can be plumbed in system, say all the upstairs beds on one zone, downstairs and hall/landing in another, or just all up and all down on each zone. If you fitted smart thermostatic valves, (TRVs) to the individual radiators, you can have individual zone control on a room by room basis.
If your current CH system is all in one zone, it may be difficult to replumb to 2 or more zones. As you are changing the radiators, you should make sure that the valves on one end of each rad is a TRV type valve body You can then install smart TRV control heads on these at your leisure to give you zoning.
For general smart thermostatic control, the Nest is a good choice for a single zone system, with HW control which you don't require with a combi. Each new plumbed zone would require a full extra nest installation. Nest systems don't support TRVs. Most of the other leading smart thermostats have TRVs available to integrate into the app control. Tado, Netatmo, Hive, Honeywell and Drayton Wiser are the mainstream brands with multiple zone thermostat and individual radiator TRV control integrated on one system and app.
Get the TRV valve bodies on the new rads. They cost little more than the twist ones. You'll be set up for better control of heating, even if you only fitted mechanical TRV heads on them, but the smart heads will give you app controlled zoning, and integration with Home, Alexa etc.

deezell · 06-09-2020 8:58pm

peposhi wrote: »

Had a quick look at the prices... ScrewFix have the Drayton yoke for €235. The Climote I found would cost me €50 and whatever yearly subscription there will be...

You already have the 3 zone climote controller from your previous install? you'll just need the extra wireless stat for CH zone 2. If the controller is wired in a new location which is suitable for measuring the temperature of zone 1 (say the hall or lounge), then the internal stat is fine for there, otherwise put it on a wireless stat also. If you're happy with that, go for it, wiring is a diy job, one sim sub is all you need. It's technically not a very well featured sysyem though, more like a 3 zone control timer with app access.

Home heating automation

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