Home heating automation

Grant Stevens

deezell wrote: »

The oil boiler is also open vent. System is not sealed even with all rads closed, it's still vented. If there's a gravity path to the HW cylinder, and/or a single open rad also on gravity, then the stove has a heatsink in the event of a power failure while lit. Even with mechanical rad valves fully open, stove heat can't reach them if theres no power to its pump. You can install a highish capacity radiator upstairs connected by a temperature controlled valve, which will sink heat if the stove circuit exceeds a temperature limit, say 75°. Plenty you can do in the event of power failure, and it's easy to kick in a pump to an open rad if all other TRVs are closed. Leave a main room open and controled by pump and wall stat rather than TRV. A bypass relay on zone pump operated by the stove stat means it will heat normally on oil controlled by it's room stat, but also when the stove stat kicks in. This relay can also mute the oil boiler for the duration of the stove supplied heat, TRVs will open and close and not know or care what the heat source is. Check the NRG Awareness site for blended system schematics. Get them to quote you if you want.
https://www.nrgawareness.com/

The electric Ireland chap said I have a single coil tank system and that next time I have the heating on (oil burner) I should put my hand in at the back of the Inlet stove and should feel it's warm. I tried this and there's no heat in there.

I have done a small bit of research this evening on trying to determine exactly what type of system we have in place at present.

When I look at the hot water tank in the hot press, I can see that it's set up with dual coil system. To my understanding that is, the oil boiler provides an Indirect source of heat to the water tank and the inlet stove provides its own supply to the tank, perhaps this explains why I'm not feeling heat at the back of the inlet stove while the oil boiler is firing as they're separate systems?

In the hot press I can see the feed and return from both the (presumably) the inlet stove and the oil boiler. However, I do not see any T junction where the pipe goes to the rads. Is this happening somehwere else, away from the airing cupboard?

I have 2 questions:

Where would a motorised valve be placed in the system to separate rads from hot water tank?

Do I need to decommission the inlet stove (back boiler) in order to have heating controls (Evohome) installed?

Our primary heating source is oil boiler. In fact, since we've moved in to this house we've never lit the inlet stove. However, if we were to decommission this back boiler in order to have the evohome controls Installed, we would still like the option to light a fire in that stove in the future. Someone told me that if we decomission a wet stove, we'd never be able to light it as it would be unsafe, as these stoves are designed without the fire bricks a normal wood stove has and therefore the metal is thinner and we could burn through it. I need some clarification on all of this!

deezell

Skidmcmarx wrote: »

I

..........My question is, based on the wiring seen in the picture, can both nest heat links be places in the same place?
Any insight would be really appreciated.

Yes. Heatlinks communicate wirelessly with the nest stats using mesh protocols, so they can operate together. You'll just have to loop the existing mains from Heatlink one to two, and divvy out the zone wiring. You'll have a spare pair of timed terminals for the second unused HW zone, you could dream up a use for these.

deezell

maxamillius wrote: »

I’ve drawn it all out now and understand how it’s meant to be wired and setup, my only remaining question is,

In my old setup I have a wall stat to switch on the pump for ch. if I was to put TRVs in all rooms, I don’t need the wall stat anymore correct?

In this case I would get the smart radiator kit with the extension, as opposed to the smart thermostat kit? Correct?

And finally is there a requirement to leave one radiator without trv?

Edit

If I decided to just get the smart stat kit, I think this comes with the extension as standard, the wireless stat goes in place of my wall stat and is used to fire Boiler and pump. if I decide to add TRVs at a later date, would I then get rid of the wall stat? Or leave it there in the hall and not put a TRV in the hall radiator?

1. You won't need the old wall stat but you'll have to connect either to the CH terminal so it comes on with the boiler. If you want to retain HW only, use the ext kit.
2 You can't use the extension kit without the main stat, ext. Kit is a wireless receiver for the main stat relay, plus a hw relay, but it wont function without a stat. Odd I know, but a legacy of Tado logical path.
3. When you get TRVs, you still need the Tado stat with or without the ext kit to have a physical relay to wire to the boiler and pump or zone valves if you have two zone system.

maxamillius

deezell wrote: »

1. You won't need the old wall stat but you'll have to connect either to the CH terminal so it comes on with the boiler. If you want to retain HW only, use the ext kit.
2 You can't use the extension kit without the main stat, ext. Kit is a wireless receiver for the main stat relay, plus a hw relay, but it wont function without a stat. Odd I know, but a legacy of Tado logical path.
3. When you get TRVs, you still need the Tado stat with or without the ext kit to have a physical relay to wire to the boiler and pump or zone valves if you have two zone system.

Ok so first off I think I can get the below

https://shop.tado.com/ie/store?_ga=2.250069318.152413059.1602784371-1138730263.1567330910&_gac=1.194053599.1602797377.CjwKCAjw5p_8BRBUEiwAPpJO6w4k1xeXCafvBCenUCvQnNAJJNM11qhYVaHg9H57f4Em3cc8W5L0nhoCXbQQAvD_BwE

This will replace my current setup and allow me use the wireless stat to fire boiler and pump, but also setup timed event for hot water (Gravity system).

This kit looks like it has the extension kit in it.

deezell

Grant Stevens wrote: »

Where would a motorised valve be placed in the system to separate rads from hot water tank?

Do I need to decommission the inlet stove (back boiler) in order to have heating controls (Evohome) installed?

1. At the point after the boiler where the hot flow is split to CH and HW circuits. A Y plan 3 port valve or S plan with two 2 port valves, each operated by their respective HW On and CH On terminals on the Stat relay

2. No. You can just not light it. If you do drain it you can't burn anything hotter than cut timber in it, nuggets or smokeless coal will likely burn a hole in it. Any fire in a drained back boiler will probably creak and stink and steam until internal muck and residue drys and bakes, so you might need to flush it. You should fill it with dry sand or vermiculite. If it's a big jacket, you could line the inside with thin firebrick, this was often done in back boilers and boiler stoves to divert more radiant heat to the room and less to the water jacket, but it would also thermally insulate the steel from excess temperatures.

deezell

maxamillius wrote: »

.....This kit looks like it has the extension kit in it.

It does bedad. Also to answer a previous overlooked Question, you can indeed have the main stat in the hall with a non TRV radiator, that will work fine. If you do put a TRV on the rad, you can assign the Stat as it's temperature measuring device, so no conflict.

Grant Stevens

deezell wrote: »

1. At the point after the boiler where the hot flow is split to CH and HW circuits. A Y plan 3 port valve or S plan with two 2 port valves, each operated by their respective HW On and CH On terminals on the Stat relay

2. No. You can just not light it. If you do drain it you can't burn anything hotter than cut timber in it, nuggets or smokeless coal will likely burn a hole in it. Any fire in a drained back boiler will probably creak and stink and steam until internal muck and residue drys and bakes, so you might need to flush it. You should fill it with dry sand or vermiculite. If it's a big jacket, you could line the inside with thin firebrick, this was often done in back boilers and boiler stoves to divert more radiant heat to the room and less to the water jacket, but it would also thermally insulate the steel from excess temperatures.

Thank you for the reply, now I just need to find where my system splits to CH and rads. I don't see this in the hot press.

deezell

Grant Stevens wrote: »

Thank you for the reply, now I just need to find where my system splits to CH and rads. I don't see this in the hot press.

This can often be right at the boiler, as the pipes exit. I forget if you mentioned your boiler fuel, gas or oil. Many oil boilers have left and right flow/return tapoffs, and it was not uncommon to use both, one side for CH and the other for HW. This had the advantage of an independent gravity loop for the HW, while CH was pumped out the other side.

maxamillius

deezell wrote: »

It does bedad. Also to answer a previous overlooked Question, you can indeed have the main stat in the hall with a non TRV radiator, that will work fine. If you do put a TRV on the rad, you can assign the Stat as it's temperature measuring device, so no conflict.

Makes perfect sense thanks to that

Grant Stevens

deezell wrote: »

This can often be right at the boiler, as the pipes exit. I forget if you mentioned your boiler fuel, gas or oil. Many oil boilers have left and right flow/return tapoffs, and it was not uncommon to use both, one side for CH and the other for HW. This had the advantage of an independent gravity loop for the HW, while CH was pumped out the other side.

We're on oil here. Thanks for all. your help. It has been invaluable. I now suspect I know why plumbers were 'off' with us as I believe this pipework lies behind our kitchen units in which case it would require a lot of work to proceed. i.e. it's not a handy hot press job.

I'm also wondering if the back boiler inlet stove we've got heats water only. Would this be unusual or common? I can't imagine how they may have accessed CH pipework from the hearth. I have no way to test the fire as the pump at the side of the chimney breast is not working. I don't want to have to replace this just to be told we need to decommission it!

thanks a mill

Skidmcmarx

deezell wrote: »

Yes. Heatlinks communicate wirelessly with the nest stats using mesh protocols, so they can operate together. You'll just have to loop the existing mains from Heatlink one to two, and divvy out the zone wiring. You'll have a spare pair of timed terminals for the second unused HW zone, you could dream up a use for these.

Thanks for the reply. I was hoping that would be the case.
I'm thinking we may need to put the second heatlink for the upstairs in the hotpress though as it looks like the stat for upstairs only goes the hotpress not all the way downstairs.

maxamillius

Am I safe to assume it doesn’t matter weather you get the wired or wireless version of the Tado starter kit. Currently my wall stat turns pump on/off. I could just do away with those cables and use the wireless stat instead?

RobbieTheRobber

deezell wrote: »

Wall plates different, but swapping is self explanatory.

Deezell just wanted to say thanks for the advice you have been providing.
Thanks to your relpies to other questions I felt confident enough to install the 3 channel Drayton wiser.

All up and running and easy in the end with the exception of getting the wiser app connected to my own wifi. I can now shout at google to turn on and off the heating when I'm to lazy to get off the couch.

championc

maxamillius wrote: »

Am I safe to assume it doesn’t matter weather you get the wired or wireless version of the Tado starter kit. Currently my wall stat turns pump on/off. I could just do away with those cables and use the wireless stat instead?

If you go wireless Tado Smart Thermostat, then you NEED the Extension Kit, as it would be the part which is then wired to the boiler.

The Thermostat has the wiring connections and would be a straight swap for your existing Thermostat

maxamillius

championc wrote: »

If you go wireless Tado Smart Thermostat, then you NEED the Extension Kit, as it would be the part which is then wired to the boiler.

The Thermostat has the wiring connections and would be a straight swap for your existing Thermostat

Ye so I’d be replacing my wired thermostat, with the wireless kit that comes with extension kit

championc

maxamillius wrote: »

Ye so I’d be replacing my wired thermostat, with the wireless kit that comes with extension kit

Just so others know, the wired and wireless Tado Smart Thermostats are one and the same thing - you just have the option to use it either way

maxamillius

championc wrote: »

Just so others know, the wired and wireless Tado Smart Thermostats are one and the same thing - you just have the option to use it either way

That clears it up nicely, cheers mate

deezell

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

..... I can now shout at google to turn on and off the heating when I'm to lazy to get off the couch.

Excellent, it's the whole purpose of smart tech, to increase horizontal couch time.

Bluefoam

I want my heating to come on for an hour in the morning in the bathroom. I hate a warm house, so am using this to heat the bathroom only while the thermostat is in an adjacent bedroom...

My understanding is that there are time allotments for the sensor... It only works within the following time slots: The temperature sensor schedules must use four predefined blocks of time: 9AM-11 AM, 11AM-4 PM, 4PM-9 PM, and 9 PM-7AM.

So can I have the radiator on from 6.00am - 7.00am, or do I need to have it on for that full time slot, 9pm - 7am. Which would have the radiator on all night?

deezell

Bluefoam wrote: »

I want my heating to come on for an hour in the morning in the bathroom. I hate a warm house, so am using this to heat the bathroom only while the thermostat is in an adjacent bedroom...

My understanding is that there are time allotments for the sensor... It only works within the following time slots: The temperature sensor schedules must use four predefined blocks of time: 9AM-11 AM, 11AM-4 PM, 4PM-9 PM, and 9 PM-7AM.

So can I have the radiator on from 6.00am - 7.00am, or do I need to have it on for that full time slot, 9pm - 7am. Which would have the radiator on all night?

What brand and model is that device? Sounds like a candidate for WEEE recycling centre.

Clareman

Bluefoam wrote: »

I want my heating to come on for an hour in the morning in the bathroom. I hate a warm house, so am using this to heat the bathroom only while the thermostat is in an adjacent bedroom...

My understanding is that there are time allotments for the sensor... It only works within the following time slots: The temperature sensor schedules must use four predefined blocks of time: 9AM-11 AM, 11AM-4 PM, 4PM-9 PM, and 9 PM-7AM.

So can I have the radiator on from 6.00am - 7.00am, or do I need to have it on for that full time slot, 9pm - 7am. Which would have the radiator on all night?

If it's just 1 room for a short time would you consider getting a fan heater installed that's connected to a smart plug which can be set to a timer? I've seen bathroom fan heaters that have been installed by putting a cable through the ceiling into the attic

Bluefoam

deezell wrote: »

What brand and model is that device? Sounds like a candidate for WEEE recycling centre.

It's Google Nest. It's a good system, I just have a specific question about additional sensors. You don't seem to understand the subject, but your comment is super helpful.

Clareman wrote: »

If it's just 1 room for a short time would you consider getting a fan heater installed that's connected to a smart plug which can be set to a timer? I've seen bathroom fan heaters that have been installed by putting a cable through the ceiling into the attic

I have a physical radiator in the room! And a smart thermostat. And a €30 sensor.. You want me to replace that with a smart socket and a fan heater and get an electrician to wire it through my ceiling?

Thanks both. But I'm just looking for an answer to my question. Silly comments tend to derail the tread and the actual question can get lost...

championc

Bluefoam wrote: »

I want my heating to come on for an hour in the morning in the bathroom. I hate a warm house, so am using this to heat the bathroom only while the thermostat is in an adjacent bedroom...

My understanding is that there are time allotments for the sensor... It only works within the following time slots: The temperature sensor schedules must use four predefined blocks of time: 9AM-11 AM, 11AM-4 PM, 4PM-9 PM, and 9 PM-7AM.

So can I have the radiator on from 6.00am - 7.00am, or do I need to have it on for that full time slot, 9pm - 7am. Which would have the radiator on all night?

Just get some Tado Smart TRV's. This is exactly what they are for. Each rad becomes it's own zone. You could have the bathroom rad on with every other off in the morning. You could also have the bathroom on from 07;30 to 08:00 at 20° and the Kitchen from 07:50 to 08:30 at 19°. That's the type of flexibility that you can have.

And you wouldn't have the heating on for a while hour - the boiler would come on, heat that rad enough to heat that room to the required temperature, and then turn off. So in this scenario, it might turn on for 2 mins at 0730 and another 2 mins at 07:50.

It gets to know how long it takes to heat a room from x° to y°. So the boiler will knock off before the room reaches temperature, since the rad will continue to deliver heat for the following 10 mins at least

deezell

Bluefoam wrote: »

....You don't seem to understand the subject,..........

I'm gobsmacked. Your total information amounted to 'a sensor which had 4 fixed time intervals'. Hence my advice to bin it, but, hey, as you say, I know nuffin', I just make it all up. Cheers.

Bluefoam

deezell wrote: »

I'm gobsmacked. Your total information amounted to 'a sensor which had 4 fixed time intervals'. Hence my advice to bin it, but, hey, as you say, I know nuffin', I just make it all up. Cheers.

I suggest you reread my original post.

Bluefoam

championc wrote: »

Just get some Tado Smart TRV's. This is exactly what they are for. Each rad becomes it's own zone. You could have the bathroom rad on with every other off in the morning. You could also have the bathroom on from 07;30 to 08:00 at 20° and the Kitchen from 07:50 to 08:30 at 19°. That's the type of flexibility that you can have.

And you wouldn't have the heating on for a while hour - the boiler would come on, heat that rad enough to heat that room to the required temperature, and then turn off. So in this scenario, it might turn on for 2 mins at 0730 and another 2 mins at 07:50.

It gets to know how long it takes to heat a room from x° to y°. So the boiler will knock off before the room reaches temperature, since the rad will continue to deliver heat for the following 10 mins at least

Thanks, that sounds lovely. I already have a Nest system and its great. I just have a specify question about scheduling when using a sensor...

deezell

Bluefoam wrote: »

I suggest you reread my original post.

I suggest you go...., no, just read more of this thread before you put people down.

championc

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thanks, that sounds lovely. I already have a Nest system and its great. I just have a specify question about scheduling when using a sensor...

It's horses for courses. Only the likes of Tado and Drayton Smart TRV's can stop whole houses or whole sections of a house from potentially heating up.

Bluefoam

championc wrote: »

It's horses for courses. Only the likes of Tado and Drayton Smart TRV's can stop whole houses or whole sections of a house from potentially heating up.

Thanks for your input, but that's not what I asked.

championc

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thanks for your input, but that's not what I asked.

What is believe I'm getting at is that what you appear to have is not matching what you want. So I have simply suggested to you as the required kit for what you want to do.

So essentially, what you appear to confirm is that what you bought is not fit for (your) purpose