Limerick rugby experience

Glenomra

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Tag is designed to be a social sport. Nothing wrong with that. Support for club rugby isnt that bad.
Where is the long term appeal for the museum? Its great for tourists, school tours etc

trading, investing

support for club games is dire. None of my colleagues all great munster supporters ever go to a club game.

The Lost Sheep

Glenomra wrote: »

support for club games is dire. None of my colleagues all great munster supporters ever go to a club game.

What is "dire" support anyway?
How much would you be expecting at club games anyway?

Cookiemunster

Glenomra wrote: »

support for club games is dire. None of my colleagues all great munster supporters ever go to a club game.

Were they ever club men before Munster took off?
There's a lot more to club rugby than going to the AIL games. Limerick has 7 senior clubs alone that each have hundreds of players registered from kids up to the seniors.

Vanquished

The first image of the development is carried on the frontpage of the Leader. It consists of the demolition of both buildings, except for the ground floor of Fine's jeweller's and the construction of a new 7 floor complex.

The design would work fine on a brownfield site like Cleeve's or in the market area. But I don't believe it's suitable for O'Connell Street. It's completely out of character amongst the predominently 4 storey streetscape. Obviously the AIB and George hotel break that uniformity but they were shocking atrocities built in the 1960s when there was essentially no planning system in place.

Vanquished

The image is too large for boards unfortunately.

tommy249

I'm not here to diss the plan and certainly hope it is a success but I am really struggling with it. The first line of today's Limerick leader article says that the museum could bring thousands of visitors to the city. I really really can't see that happening. Very few people would visit a city (any city) specifically for a rugby museum in my opinion.

The front page of today's Limerick post has an article about the "Red Mile" plan from King Johns Castle to thomond park which again is expected to bring thousands of visitors to the city

The reality is Munster Rugby hype that was there in the mid naughties is not there anymore. Thomond park is a sell out for a couple of games a year now (if they are lucky) Even last Saturday the terraces weren't full. Pro 14 games in thomond park draw about 8k max when u strip away the season ticket holders who don't turn up (they are always counted as in attendance). Most of these games are in Cork now as it is a smaller stadium. All this push to market and promote Limerick around rugby is crazy when in my eyes the facts don't back it up. Remember the huge marketing effort around the Limerick sevens tournament a couple of years ago?? Again that was advertised to bring thousands to the city and millions would be spent. In reality a couple of hundred spectators attended.
Yes, Munster rugby is great for Limerick on the big match days, but trying to develop all Limerick tourist ideas around it is a waste of time and money in my opinion

Cookiemunster

tommy249 wrote: »

The reality is Munster Rugby hype that was there in the mid naughties is not there anymore. Thomond park is a sell out for a couple of games a year now (if they are lucky) Even last Saturday the terraces weren't full. Pro 14 games in thomond park draw about 8k max when u strip away the season ticket holders who don't turn up (they are always counted as in attendance). Most of these games are in Cork now as it is a smaller stadium. All this push to market and promote Limerick around rugby is crazy when in my eyes the facts don't back it up. Remember the huge marketing effort around the Limerick sevens tournament a couple of years ago?? Again that was advertised to bring thousands to the city and millions would be spent. In reality a couple of hundred spectators attended.
Yes, Munster rugby is great for Limerick on the big match days, but trying to develop all Limerick tourist ideas is a waste of time and money in my opinion

Complete rubbish. Munster play 4 games in Cork and 11 in Limerick and there are no plans to increase the number of games in Cork.

Going back over the years Munster never came close to selling out TP for anything other than European games and Leinster. In the mid 00s the capacity of TP was 13K and Celtic League games never even came close to filling it.

And while the open terraces behind the goals last Saturday weren't full, there were still 23,500 in attendance on a freezing cold wet December night.

Try getting some of your facts right.

Cookiemunster

Vanquished wrote: »

The first image of the development is carried on the frontpage of the Leader. It consists of the demolition of both buildings, except for the ground floor of Fine's jeweller's and the construction of a new 7 floor complex.

The design would work fine on a brownfield site like Cleeve's or in the market area. But I don't believe it's suitable for O'Connell Street. It's completely out of character amongst the predominently 4 storey streetscape. Obviously the AIB and George hotel break that uniformity but they were shocking atrocities built in the 1960s when there was essentially no planning system in place.

The article is now online http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/287236/exclusive-first-look-at-iconic-design-for-paul-o-connell-fronted-limerick-rugby-experience.html

And I agree, it looks terrible at that location.

tototoe

tommy249 wrote: »

Most of these games are in Cork now as it is a smaller stadium.

AS far as I know Musgrave Park in Cork gets 4 games a year!

Thomond was sold out on 9 occasions last season. Not every game is going to sell out, thats the reality. Even in Dublin with a huge population , the RDS for Leinster is not sold out for all games, and thats a smaller capacity than Thomond.

Last Saturday, the game started late for TV reasons ( it has never in my memory started that late), was exceptionally cold and also clashed for many with Christmas parties. These things happen.

I've been to many GAA games this year that were not even close to a sell out, be it in Thurles, Pairc Ui Caoimh, Croke Park or the Gaelic Grounds. Not every game is a sell out in any sport.

People are very quick to give out about the lack of things to do in the city center, but when something like this comes along, are full of negativity...it will never work, rugby is not that popular etc etc

I mean lets be fair, what have the FAI done in Limerick? The Gaelic Grounds is a compete dump of a stadium which I have yet to see completely sold out?

I saw the design on the leader website and personally I like what I see, but its not a very detailed image so lets see how things develop.

Silentcorner

I hope this works out, this is a significant investment so it is not being done on the cheap...

I like the rugby culture in the city, I was reared in it like a lot of people, but I can't see to many locals visiting this museum, I mean most of us don't go near the other museums in the city...will it attract visitors....I just don't know...

I think a Limerick Cultural Museum would be much better, industrial/Sporting/Music etc, I have come across two tourists over the last year or so in the city centre, one was Asian who wanted to walk around the city that Frank McCourt wrote about, the other was a French lady in love with Richard Harris...I thought it was nuts that two Limerick men who were long since gone could inspire these two to make their way here....and then of course you have the TOGS...most of all, it might just give locals a more complete appreciation of the citys culture, it might also inspire other parts of Ireland to do similar....

tommy249

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Complete rubbish. Munster play 4 games in Cork and 11 in Limerick and there are no plans to increase the number of games in Cork.

Going back over the years Munster never came close to selling out TP for anything other than European games and Leinster. In the mid 00s the capacity of TP was 13K and Celtic League games never even came close to filling it.

And while the open terraces behind the goals last Saturday weren't full, there were still 23,500 in attendance on a freezing cold wet December night.

Try getting some of your facts right.

Hey, I hope it works. I personally just can't see how it will attract thousands of visitors to the city...

juneg

riverrocked wrote: »

I am not a rugby fan, have never been to a match but even I can clearly see how popular it is.
I am sure like other museums it will aim at the tours (bus tours/school tours) most of these that come into the city don't actually care what the places they go to are about it is just another good day out on the list. I would say those are the major visitors to the Hunt. I know my son got sick of visiting it as a child in a city centre school.
As I said, I am not a rugby fan but I will go into it, I will also suggest it to others as a place to visit, just as I do with the Castle, the Limerick Museum, the Art Gallery and the Hunt. It will be great to have another venue to point people towards.
There will never be a museum that covers everyone's tastes, that is not the remit of museums.

Or, we could belittle an attempt to revivalise a section of the city as it doesn't fit into our narrow focus what a museum should be. Carrying that negativity into an open forum, causing those who were thinking of going to this to doubt themselves as if the locals think it's rubbish then why bother.

I'd agree with you. Can't we just celebrate the opening of something other than a fast food joint on o connell St?
Speaking of which I'd like a coffee shop in there for the locals. The Hunt and the art gallery both have cafes open to the public and that adds a whole other aspect of vibrancy to the place.

pigtown

I understand people won't come to Limerick solely for a rugby museum but it will add to the tourism offering of the cit and that can only be a good thing. There are plans by Limerick Civic Trust for a military museum near the castle ad there are long term plans by the council to greatly expand the city museum at its new site as funds allow. The more visitor attractions the better.

Mc Love

It's worth at least 10 million to the city!

Townie_P

Jaysus lads, you question the long term viability of a proposed museum based on the numbers game and it upsets all the sensitive rugby folk! Of course this development is a positive for the city, and if it happens fair play to them.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

A couple of inaccuracies there Townie. The Munster Rugby Store didn't close due to lack of interest. Lifestyle took over the sale of Munster apparel and it was decided to let the lease lapse as they already had multiple outlets around Limerick selling the same gear.

Look, if the Munster Rugby store was a profit making machine it would still be open, Lifestyle or no Lifestyle. Plenty of football clubs around the world who have club stores that co-exist in the same areas with other sports chains selling their gear. It's not a one or the other scenario. Lifestyle were not going to walk away from a deal like that because of an existing club store in Limerick, there's a bigger picture. They closed it for a reason and it wasn't just because of Lifestyle. They weren't even paying big rent for that unit.

BTW, if that dig about people who dislike rugby was aimed at me, that would be an inaccuracy on your part. I do not lean towards any sport in particular, nor do I have anything against any sport in particular. It's just an observation that I feel rugby thinks it's more important/popular than it actually is in reality, in relation to the general population.

pigtown wrote: »

It's to be an international rugby museum that will attract both local and national/international visitors. A Limerick sports museum wouldn't even be an attraction for Clare people. It wouldn't be enough of a draw.

There isn't a museum in the world that would be attractive to Clare people - you can't fill a museum with accordions, fiddles, hurls and sheep. Museums are generally targeted at foreign visitors, educators and the visiting tourist with an interest in history and culture. Not local people or people living in the surrounding counties who would already be familiar with Limerick. And I did say that ultimately it should be a Limerick museum encompassing film, music, literature, arts etc because we do have genuinely world famous celebrities to showcase.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Plenty of inaccuracies there. Rugby isnt the common mans game? Id disagree and even if it wasnt countrywide it most certainly is in Limerick. Where this is based.

See, you can't see past your own nose here. So what if rugby is popular in Limerick? It isn't local Limerick people who will keep this museum alive, is it? The question is, are the numbers there to keep a rugby museum open and profitable 360 days of the year, every year with visiting tourists? Considering that it's a minority sport in Ireland and it's actually the minority sport in most countries it's played in (save Wales, NZ, Australia and South Africa and even AUS & SA are very debatable), I would have genuine questions over it's long term viability. Will tourists in Limerick who may have no interest in rugby or sport visit this just because it's a museum (e.g. American tourists, Spanish foreign exchange students etc)? I'd imagine it would be quite popular for the first 18 - 24 months with locals and Munster fans, but once that wears off and it's relying largely on tourists, I just don't see it doing the numbers long term. Just my opinion.

The planned building is truly awful by the way. It's iconic for all the wrong reasons, but that's for another day.

The Lost Sheep

Townie_P wrote: »

Jaysus lads, you question the long term viability of a proposed museum based on the numbers game and it upsets all the sensitive rugby folk! Of course this development is a positive for the city, and if it happens fair play to them.

You are the only one throwing insults. Acting sensitive/insecure.

Look, if the Munster Rugby store was a profit making machine it would still be open, Lifestyle or no Lifestyle. Plenty of football clubs around the world who have club stores that co-exist in the same areas with other sports chains selling their gear. It's not a one or the other scenario. Lifestyle were not going to walk away from a deal like that because of an existing club store in Limerick, there's a bigger picture. They closed it for a reason and it wasn't just because of Lifestyle. They weren't even paying big rent for that unit.

Maybe thats the case or maybe Lifestyle feel overheads werent worth it when it would take away from their own stores.

BTW, if that dig about people who dislike rugby was aimed at me, that would be an inaccuracy on your part. I do not lean towards any sport in particular, nor do I have anything against any sport in particular. It's just an observation that I feel rugby thinks it's more important/popular than it actually is in reality, in relation to the general population.

Well the observation is well off the mark. How is rugby/people who follow rugbt think its more important than it is?

See, you can't see past your own nose here. So what if rugby is popular in Limerick? It isn't local Limerick people who will keep this museum alive, is it? The question is, are the numbers there to keep a rugby museum open and profitable 360 days of the year, every year with visiting tourists? Considering that it's a minority sport in Ireland and it's actually the minority sport in most countries it's played in (save Wales, NZ, Australia and South Africa and even AUS & SA are very debatable), I would have genuine questions over it's long term viability. Will tourists in Limerick who may have no interest in rugby or sport visit this just because it's a museum (e.g. American tourists, Spanish foreign exchange students etc)? I don't know, I just don't see it doing the numbers.

The planned building is truly awful by the way. It's iconic for all the wrong reasons, but that's for another day.

Yawn. Same ignorant arguments as so many times before. Rugby is only popular in 3 countries. School tours in addition to tourist groups etc will help keep this museum alive. If marketed well then big match weekends in Thomond when there is large numbers of visiting fans like european weekends etc are perfect times for this museum and yes tourists who have no interest in rugby may visit if marketed and promoted well. Just like anything else.

Townie_P

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You are the only one throwing insults. Acting sensitive/insecure.

Maybe thats the case or maybe Lifestyle feel overheads werent worth it when it would take away from their own stores.

Well the observation is well off the mark. How is rugby/people who follow rugbt think its more important than it is?

Yawn. Same ignorant arguments as so many times before. Rugby is only popular in 3 countries. School tours in addition to tourist groups etc will help keep this museum alive. If marketed well then big match weekends in Thomond when there is large numbers of visiting fans like european weekends etc are perfect times for this museum and yes tourists who have no interest in rugby may visit if marketed and promoted well. Just like anything else.

Never post when you're drunk kids

The Lost Sheep

Townie_P wrote: »

Never post when you're drunk kids

:rolleyes:

bigpink

Why didn’t they buy Fines jewelers out I wonder

osarusan

Townie_P wrote: »

See, you can't see past your own nose here. So what if rugby is popular in Limerick? It isn't local Limerick people who will keep this museum alive, is it? The question is, are the numbers there to keep a rugby museum open and profitable 360 days of the year, every year with visiting tourists? Considering that it's a minority sport in Ireland and it's actually the minority sport in most countries it's played in (save Wales, NZ, Australia and South Africa and even AUS & SA are very debatable), I would have genuine questions over it's long term viability. Will tourists in Limerick who may have no interest in rugby or sport visit this just because it's a museum (e.g. American tourists, Spanish foreign exchange students etc)? I'd imagine it would be quite popular for the first 18 - 24 months with locals and Munster fans, but once that wears off and it's relying largely on tourists, I just don't see it doing the numbers long term. Just my opinion.

I actually agree with this. We have no idea how many people will be needed through the doors over a year to keep it viable, but it looks like a substantial venture, and a city of this size, with tourist numbers are they are, will do well to keep such a venture going.

That said, there are plans for retail and cafe, and I presume that they will be accessible to everybody, not just museum visitors. I don't know if there are any plans to have entertainment, education, or corporate spaces that could be rented for events, but that would help.

Something as simple as a rugby-themed bar on the top floor would be a good way to bring in money outside museum hours too.

source

osarusan wrote: »

I actually agree with this. We have no idea how many people will be needed through the doors over a year to keep it viable, but it looks like a substantial venture, and a city of this size, with tourist numbers are they are, will do well to keep such a venture going.

That said, there are plans for retail and cafe, and I presume that they will be accessible to everybody, not just museum visitors. I don't know if there are any plans to have entertainment, education, or corporate spaces that could be rented for events, but that would help.

Something as simple as a rugby-themed bar on the top floor would be a good way to bring in money outside museum hours too.

We might have no idea of the numbers needed, but you can be sure JP has sat down and looked at the numbers before agreeing to fund it.

keane2097

JP has funded plenty of things that couldn't/don't survive on their own merits.

source

keane2097 wrote: »

JP has funded plenty of things that couldn't/don't survive on their own merits.

Just because a venture doesn't survive doesn't mean due diligence wasn't done prior to investing in it.

keane2097

source wrote: »

Just because a venture doesn't survive doesn't mean due diligence wasn't done prior to investing in it.

I think you've missed my point.

source

keane2097 wrote: »

I think you've missed my point.

No i fully get your point, my point is that there are 2 people that we all know of, who know what has been done in the background to make this a possibility and neither of them are on boards.

We are all having a discussion without all the facts, i like rugby, i go to games as often as i can, and i think the idea of the museum may be too narrow in its focus. I however, don't have the full details, or all the information that JP McManus or Paul O'Connell are working off, they obviously think, based on whatever market research and due diligence they've done that this is something which will work and there is a market for.

As someone who doesn't have all the facts, that's enough for me to support it.

keane2097

Just in case, my point is that JP McManus being involved doesn't mean JP McManus has any expectation or even interest in the place being financially viable on its own merits.

I think the notion that JP being involved means there must be evidence that this can be a profit making venture is pretty flimsy. There's every chance he doesn't give a fiddler's fart.

Cookiemunster

keane2097 wrote: »

Just in case, my point is that JP McManus being involved doesn't mean JP McManus has any expectation or even interest in the place being financially viable on its own merits.

I think the notion that JP being involved means there must be evidence that this can be a profit making venture is pretty flimsy. There's every chance he doesn't give a fiddler's fart.

This isn't one of his charitable donations, it's a business investment. If he didn't care how his business investments went, he wouldn't have the money he has.

source

keane2097 wrote: »

Just in case, my point is that JP McManus being involved doesn't mean JP McManus has any expectation or even interest in the place being financially viable on its own merits.

I think the notion that JP being involved means there must be evidence that this can be a profit making venture is pretty flimsy. There's every chance he doesn't give a fiddler's fart.

The is indeed every chance of that however if that were true and he was that bad with his money, i dont think he'd be in the position he's in. It'd be gone on wild unprofitable venture.

keane2097

source wrote: »

The is indeed every chance of that however if that were true and he was that bad with his money, i dont think he'd be in the position he's in. It'd be gone on wild unprofitable venture.

Being good with his money is what has him in the position to spend it on things that aren't necessarily going to be profitable. He's involved in a whole slew of things that are never going to make money for philanthropic reasons, for the sake of personal interests etc. I thought this was well known.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

This isn't one of his charitable donations, it's a business investment. If he didn't care how his business investments went, he wouldn't have the money he has.

I don't see that that's really for any of us to know.

Regardless of that, I think there are clearly question marks over the size of the market for this. If some people want brush all that off with 'if JP says it's ok...' that's totally fine with me, but for the rest of us it's an interesting point of discussion.

bigpink

Does Jp McManus make money from gambling and the horse racing gambling industry?
Well this venture is a gamble but having Jp and Poc well help it with the council and media
We need more housing and hotel beds first and in time attractions