Jobstown Defendants Not Guilty - The Role of the Gardai and the Judicial Process

Korat

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Listen to the right people. And establish immediately that the buck stops with me and will not be passed on or diluted by verbal gymnastics.
Sacking the commissioner will not fix the Gardai, what is needed is an outside, independent commissioner with the power to reform.

No offence but that sounds like the same guff every politician comes out with when asked that question.

Talk is cheap and easy.

You'd have to burn your career as a poltician and public servant to do what's needed.

FrancieBrady

Korat wrote: »

No offence but that sounds like the same guff every politician comes out with when asked that question.

Talk is cheap and easy.

You'd have to burn your career as a poltician and public servant to do what's needed.

We are hearing all the talk now. And the buck keeps getting passed.
Yes I would burn my career, if that is what it took.

Commitment is what is required, and vision.

Mine is a proper transparent separation of power. Easily achieved by honest politics.

lensman

I think we owe almost a quarter of a million Irish people who emigrated since 2008 a great debt of gratitude, we also owe it to them to hold our political class to account at each and every opportunity, I also think that the majority who emigrated attended each and every protest and march in spirit.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Listen to the right people. And establish immediately that the buck stops with me and will not be passed on or diluted by verbal gymnastics.
Sacking the commissioner will not fix the Gardai, what is needed is an outside, independent commissioner with the power to reform.

Ah yes, the Shane Ross style of government, all bluster and bull****, but no action.

FrancieBrady

lensman wrote: »

I think we owe almost a quarter of a million Irish people who emigrated since 2008 a great debt of gratitude, we also owe it to them to hold our political class to account at each and every opportunity, I also think that the majority who emigrated attended each and every protest and march in spirit.

Nothing will ever change until somebody actually changes it.

It's a point lost on those who see any change proposals as 'bluster and bull****'.
They are the reason politics have stagnated and lazy inefficient politicians cling to power.

Korat

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are hearing all the talk now. And the buck keeps getting passed.
Yes I would burn my career, if that is what it took.

Commitment is what is required, and vision.

Mine is a proper transparent separation of power. Easily achieved by honest politics.

You'd fire a couple of thousand civil servants on day one?

Brave man.

I'd vote for you, if you survived saying that in public.

FrancieBrady

Korat wrote: »

You'd fire a couple of thousand civil servants on day one?

Brave man.

I'd vote for you, if you survived saying that in public.

Why would I fire a few thousand civil servants?

Was somebody here talking about bluster?
That is blustering what I said.

Korat

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would I fire a few thousand civil servants?

Was somebody here talking about bluster?
That is blustering what I said.

So what would you do to fix the perceived problems in the Gardai then?

Move the chairs around like everyone else does?

More of the same then. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

Korat wrote: »

So what would you do to fix the perceived problems in the Gardai then?

Move the chairs around like everyone else does?

More of the same then. :rolleyes:

I asked why you think I would sack a few thousand civil servants. Tell me why you said that and maybe I can consider you are interested in a discussion and not a mickey measuring stunt.

Korat

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I asked why you think I would sack a few thousand civil servants. Tell me why you said that and maybe I can consider you are interested in a discussion and not a mickey measuring stunt.

The Gardai and their management are civil servants. If you're not happy with their performance what do you do with them?

Apparently they're corrupt and/or incompetent so immediate action is needed. As Justice Minister what would you do?

FrancieBrady

Korat wrote: »

The Gardai and their management are civil servants. If you're not happy with their performance what do you do with them?

Apparently they're corrupt and/or incompetent so immediate action is needed. As Justice Minister what would you do?

Can you answer the question?

I didn't say ever, that a thousand Gardai are corrupt btw

Korat

....?

If you can complain about the Gardai surely you've got a quick fix in mind.

Korat

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you answer the question?

I didn't say ever, that a thousand Gardai are corrupt btw

You're not answering the difficult question. What would you do that is different to every other Justice Minister?

It's only a hypothetical but you've got nothing.

FrancieBrady

Korat wrote: »

....?

If you can complain about the Gardai surely you've got a quick fix in mind.

Again, who was talking about 'quick' anything.

Stop inventing stuff maybe?

Korat

Lots of talk no action.

Wasted a good hour there.:rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

Korat wrote: »

Lots of talk no action.

Wasted a good hour there.:rolleyes:

So, doing my job without fear and more importantly, favour, would not lead to a better force?

What a cynic you are. Just keep voting for the same old, same old? Right. :rolleyes:

Hitman3000

Korat wrote:

Apparently they're corrupt and/or incompetent so immediate action is needed. As Justice Minister what would you do?

I think if you look north of the border a template exists. No need for expensive consultation just copy and paste.

Captain Obvious

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I think if you look north of the border a template exists. No need for expensive consultation just copy and paste.

What specific changes would you implement from the PSNI?

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What specific changes would you implement from the PSNI?

I would start by implementing the way the PSNI never falsified close to a million breath tests that actually never happened.

Then work my way down.

Captain Obvious

Rick Shaw wrote: »

I would start by implementing the way the PSNI never falsified close to a million breath tests that actually never happened.

Then work my way down.

As I suspected, no answer.

FrancieBrady

Captain Obvious wrote: »

As I suspected, no answer.

Are you satisfied with the integrity of the Gardai?

For Reals

Korat wrote: »

....?

If you can complain about the Gardai surely you've got a quick fix in mind.

That makes no sense. To complain about something requires having a 'quick fix'?

O'Sullivan needs to go this evening. Quick enough for you?
The only argument I can see for not having an investigation into the behaviour of the Garda involved in the Jobstown case is it would need join the queue of other investigations.

tayto lover

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you satisfied with the integrity of the Gardai?

I am in general. have always had positive dealing with them any time I needed their assistance.
You will always get bad eggs in any organisation though and they need to deal with them.
I would like to see an end to political promotions and an independent promotions panel for senior garda as i've always said.

Captain Obvious

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you satisfied with the integrity of the Gardai?

Moving quickly on to the deflection.

FrancieBrady

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Moving quickly on to the deflection.

Deflecting from what?

Captain Obvious

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Deflecting from what?

The original question

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What specific changes would you implement from the PSNI?

jimmycrackcorm

Rick Shaw wrote:

I would start by implementing the way the PSNI never falsified close to a million breath tests that actually never happened.

The PSNI did a lot worse than that. So much so that they had to be renamed from being the RUC.

FrancieBrady

Captain Obvious wrote: »

The original question

I never said anything about the PSNI.

Captain Obvious

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I never said anything about the PSNI.

Why quote my post in an exchange about them so?

FrancieBrady

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Why quote my post in an exchange about them so?

I wanted to ask you a question.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

I am in general. have always had positive dealing with them any time I needed their assistance.
You will always get bad eggs in any organisation though and they need to deal with them.
I would like to see an end to political promotions and an independent promotions panel for senior garda as i've always said.

Never had much dealing with them myself. But I do think they have lost a huge amount of credibility and that undermines their integrity - which they have to have
And I also don't think they are getting it back under the current management.

Captain Obvious

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I wanted to ask you a question.

Nah you wanted to shoehorn your way in and help deflect attention away from your running mate who compared the Gardaí to the PSNI without any actual comparison. If you wanted to ask a question then you should have just used my name or pm'd me.

But to answer your question, I don't have a lot of faith in the organisation on a management level. It is too open to political interference, not just from the government party but from all elected officials in some way or another.

FrancieBrady

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Nah you wanted to shoehorn your way in and help deflect attention away from your running mate who compared the Gardaí to the PSNI without any actual comparison. If you wanted to ask a question then you should have just used my name or pm'd me.

But to answer your question, I don't have a lot of faith in the organisation on a management level. It is too open to political interference, not just from the government party but from all elected officials in some way or another.

' My running mate' ?

I think I will leave you to it.

tayto lover

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Never had much dealing with them myself. But I do think they have lost a huge amount of credibility and that undermines their integrity - which they have to have
And I also don't think they are getting it back under the current management.

It's peoples individual dealing with them that defines their credibility though.
Just like a local TD who is doing good work in his/her community gets votes rather than the party.
People will always give out and complain about something that the garda do in general yet they will praise the individual they get who sorts out their problem.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

It's peoples individual dealing with them that defines their credibility though.
Just like a local TD who is doing good work in his/her community gets votes rather than the party.
People will always give out and complain about something that the garda do in general yet they will praise the individual they get who sorts out their problem.

Yeh, that is fine as it goes. But there are people (6 in this instance) whose dealings with them has not been at all good, in their opinion. And it makes me uneasy as well.
I don't think the problems are at an individual level.

tayto lover

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh, that is fine as it goes. But there are people (6 in this instance) whose dealings with them has not been at all good, in their opinion. And it makes me uneasy as well.
I don't think the problems are at an individual level.

The problem there is that not many have sympathy for those six.
They were the only people with anything to gain from the trouble that day.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

The problem there is that not many have sympathy for those six.
They were the only people with anything to gain from the trouble that day.

Gone way beyond what happened that day and is another huge question logged against garda behaviour in general.

Bishopsback

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Gone way beyond what happened that day and is another huge question logged against garda behaviour in general.

Perhaps more a question of the gardai being manipulated from outside on this one I feel.
I would have faith in the gardai in general, the question on the jobstown case for me would be more about the manipulation of the gardai by outside influences, perhaps the dogs tail is being slapped for the dog wagging it.

McMurphy

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The PSNI did a lot worse than that. So much so that they had to be renamed from being the RUC.

There are no words that could describe how ludicrous the above post is, and how it makes absolutely no sense, in any shape or form.

The PSNI had to be established because of the RUCs past transgressions.

You cannot hold one police force responsible for the actions of its predecessor.

FrancieBrady

Bishopsback wrote: »

Perhaps more a question of the gardai being manipulated from outside on this one I feel.
I would have faith in the gardai in general, the question on the jobstown case for me would be more about the manipulation of the gardai by outside influences, perhaps the dogs tail is being slapped for the dog wagging it.

Whatever it was it needs to be examined.

smurgen

Korat wrote: »

New legislation might be needed to deal with supposedly spontaneous events like Jobstown.

If you're part of the group when it turns violent and you fail to disperse when told by Gardai you should be part responsible for any crime committed by the group.

The Gardai need the tools to do their job without having to look for short cuts.

Taking your logic of taring people with the same brush then all gardai actions should be also taking with more than a grain of salt because of the amount of mistakes they seem to be making lately both inside and outside of court.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

But to answer your question, I don't have a lot of faith in the organisation on a management level. It is too open to political interference, not just from the government party but from all elected officials in some way or another.

It seems PAC have little faith in them too.

The Public Accounts Committee will today declare that the Garda Commissioner failed in her duty to raise concern about financial irregularities at Templemore.

Its report on the financial issues there will also accuse Gardai of internal dysfunction – and an attempt to stop outsiders from discovering the extent of the problems.

Bishopsback

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Whatever it was it needs to be examined.

No argument there.
What though?
Who enquires in to this, the judiciary, the gards, politicians, an "independent" review?
Really its a system, a system thats abused by all sides to suit a certain agenda that suits at a given time.
The laws we live by are flawed with human mistakes and interpretations.
I would be of the opinion this was used as a deterrent to the type of protest that took place in jobstown, costly but maybe effective?

blanch152

Rick Shaw wrote: »

It seems PAC have little faith in them too.

You mean the McCarthyism committee?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Every public servant is fair game for that Committee without regard to the facts.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Every public servant is fair game for that Committee without regard to the facts.

I assume you are referring to the PAC, would you like to point out exactly how they are incorrect in their assertion about NOS regarding what was reported on Clare FM.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

You mean the McCarthyism committee?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Every public servant is fair game for that Committee without regard to the facts.

I believe the PAC heard all the facts, you might have missed this part of the article.

The damning findings will throw the ball back into the government’s court – it has consistently said the PAC should be given time for its own independent inquiry into O’Sullivan’s behaviour. It may now have to deal with the findings.

Maybe you were privy to some facts that the PAC weren't?

Totally off topic, but the Gardai are Angels compared to this lot!! http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/police-helicopter-used-to-film-swingers-in-the-throes-of-sexual-passion-798384.html

Hitman3000

Deleted User wrote:

Totally off topic, but the Gardai are Angels compared to this lot!!

A story from the UK, expert level whataboutery. Unless of course it's comic relief.

RustyNut

Deleted User wrote: »

Totally off topic, but the Gardai are Angels compared to this lot!! http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/police-helicopter-used-to-film-swingers-in-the-throes-of-sexual-passion-798384.html

I don't know, I'd rather be filmed getting a leg over than be set up for an offence carrying a life sentence that I didn't commit.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Totally off topic, but the Gardai are Angels compared to this lot!! http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/police-helicopter-used-to-film-swingers-in-the-throes-of-sexual-passion-798384.html

We have gardai embroiled in allegations of 'organised perjury', we have many members of PAC calling for management and the commissioner to stand down and it is 'comparable' to a few cops filming a bit of hanky panky from a helicopter??

Isn't there a complaint that Gardai released film online of an unstable naked woman on the street?