14 team Pro 12 from 2017/2018??

Podge_irl

martingriff wrote: »

Why not outside Dublin where you could get a greenfield and build a great stadium. You can then have plenty of parking and 2 motorways to get to it. I know the poor auld Dublin people will have to travel but you will survive. Why does it have to be in Dublin.

Because the match itself is only part of the experience for most people. Every single stadium outside of a reasonably central location is varying degrees of awful. It also needs mass public transport access, not motorways.

Anyhoos, in relation to a "Judgement Day" - I'm not sure fans of Munster/Ulster/Connacht would be happy to have to travel to Dublin for a home game. It just seems completely unnecessary to me.

The answer to 'why Dublin?' is because that's where the stadiums are. That decision is already made. Hundreds of millions are not going to be spent on a greenfield site now.

salmocab

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because the match itself is only part of the experience for most people. Every single stadium outside of a reasonably central location is varying degrees of awful. It also needs mass public transport access, not motorways.

Anyhoos, in relation to a "Judgement Day" - I'm not sure fans of Munster/Ulster/Connacht would be happy to have to travel to Dublin for a home game. It just seems completely unnecessary to me.

I had taken it that the judgement day thing might be agreed to because it would be the extra game thats either home or away each year and would mean that an agreement could be in place for splitting the cash between 4 instead of the 2 'home' teams. That said this is all just speculation on our part and has no grounding in reality.

bilston

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

The answer to 'why Dublin?' is because that's where the stadiums are. That decision is already made. Hundreds of millions are not going to be spent on a greenfield site now.

I wouldn't mind if the other games were moved around the country a but more. Obviously the big rugby stadiums are in Dublin and the only place a Judgement day type event can happen is Dublin but share the rest around a bit.

Zzippy

jacothelad wrote: »

I used to live in Anglesea in Benllech. It's a lovely place. Played at Llangefni.

Were you stationed there during the war Jaco?

Erik Shin

Zzippy wrote: »

Were you stationed there during the war Jaco?

The first world war you mean?

thomond2006

Announce the damn expansion before I piss myself.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Announce the damn expansion before I piss myself.

Stop flirting with awec.

jacothelad

Zzippy wrote: »

Were you stationed there during the war Jaco?

Yes......... but fortunately a great storm rose up and blew the Armada to hell and gone. Queen Bess gave me Carrickfergus as a reward.:D:D:D:D

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/887330387919286272

Burkie1203

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/887330387919286272

Scots and Italians to play each other 3 times too allegedly.

This sounds like the mother of all clusterfooks

irishbucsfan

That's good news

Zzippy

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Scots and Italians to play each other 3 times too allegedly.

This sounds like the mother of all clusterfooks

Wait, so the Scots get a headstart of 5 points on everyone? :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Scots and Italians to play each other 3 times too allegedly.

This sounds like the mother of all clusterfooks

I can't decide if I want to lose a derby or have this compromise. I'm coming down in favour of lose a derby

LeinsterDub

Zzippy wrote: »

Wait, so the Scots get a headstart of 5 points on everyone? :rolleyes:

They play their fellow Scots not the Italians

Riskymove

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They play their fellow Scots not the Italians

they could end up playing the italians too to balance number of games
(or perhaps SA)

LeinsterDub

Riskymove wrote: »

they could end up playing the italians too to balance number of games
(or perhaps SA)

Yes twice if they are in their conference , once if not. Like everyone else

Zzippy

If there are the same number of derby games for Irl/Wales, that's 6 derby games per team. The conference system would only cater for 4 games per team (home and away vs team in same conference, home OR away vs teams in other conference), so if Thomas is right they are adding an extra 2 derby games. Does that mean the Scots play each other 3 times instead of once, or play the Italian/SA teams in the other conference an extra time?

Riskymove

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yes twice if they are in their conference , once if not. Like everyone else

unless Irish (and welsh) teams are in the same conferecne (which is unlikely) there will be an additional two games required in order to keep the "same number of derbies" in place

this goes back to to the 12 + 7 + 2 idea of games

Tigerandahalf

Zzippy wrote: »

If there are the same number of derby games for Irl/Wales, that's 6 derby games per team. The conference system would only cater for 4 games per team (home and away vs team in same conference, home OR away vs teams in other conference), so if Thomas is right they are adding an extra 2 derby games. Does that mean the Scots play each other 3 times instead of once, or play the Italian/SA teams in the other conference an extra time?

As he mentioned previously that could be the likely scenario. Everyone plays just one less game. Quite possibly they will make up that game by having same playoff system as Top 14.

If they stick to the same playoff format it means one less game during the 6 nations.

It still hasn't been confirmed so wait and see.

LeinsterDub

Riskymove wrote: »

unless Irish (and welsh) teams are in the same conferecne (which is unlikely) there will be an additional two games required in order to keep the "same number of derbies" in place

this goes back to to the 12 + 7 + 2 idea of games

Sorry stand corrected .

I'm not going to get in a panic about this until we've gone through a season of it to see what the consequences are. If the system they come up with doesn't work then it can be changed.

I still cannot decide if this is an amazingly good or an unbelievably bad or somewhere in between idea.

Zzippy

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

As he mentioned previously that could be the likely scenario. Everyone plays just one less game. Quite possibly they will make up that game by having same playoff system as Top 14.

If they stick to the same playoff format it means one less game during the 6 nations.

It still hasn't been confirmed so wait and see.

If the Scots get an extra game against an Italian team that's a headstart of 5 points. That could have a big impact on playoff places at the end of the season. Even if they play each other, that could be a significant advantage to Glasgow most years. I know I'd prefer to play Edinburgh away than an extra away inter-pro.

Tigerandahalf

Zzippy wrote: »

If the Scots get an extra game against an Italian team that's a headstart of 5 points. That could have a big impact on playoff places at the end of the season. Even if they play each other, that could be a significant advantage to Glasgow most years. I know I'd prefer to play Edinburgh away than an extra away inter-pro.

For travel reasons I see the Scots playing each other 3 times. Same with South Africa and Italy. They can't be expected to travel for extra games when the Irish and Welsh teams aren't.

Glasgow might be a big winner but Connacht could also be back to their old poor form next season so it balances out.

Neil3030

Every time I think of "extra derbies" I think of Mayor Quimby informing the Hollywood execs about the thosand dollar leaving town tax. It's just so painfully small time.

Zzippy

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

For travel reasons I see the Scots playing each other 3 times. Same with South Africa and Italy. They can't be expected to travel for extra games when the Irish and Welsh teams aren't.

Glasgow might be a big winner but Connacht could also be back to their old poor form next season so it balances out.

It's not a level playing field though. Connacht might not be rubbish and could lose out on a playoff place to a team who had easier extra games against a rubbish team. It rewards teams in a country where the standard is poorer - Irish inter-pros are far more competitive so it will always be harder for the Irish team to rack up points. Even with a poor Connacht and a poor Edinburgh, Glasgow will pick up an extra 10 points while each province that plays Connacht will rack up an extra 5, as they each play Connacht once extra while Glasgo get an additional 2 easy games. The dominant Italian team will also probably rack up 10 more points although unlikely to alter league standings.

I think the extra TV money should more than compensate for the loss of a derby game and they shouldn't be tinkering with the format to boost revenues of individual teams at the expense of a fair league. If the Welsh are so anxious let them have Judgement Day 3 times a season in the big stadium and make their money that way.

awec

IRFU will want to keep all the derbies for money reasons but also so they can rest players / have the out-of-band Ireland camps.

LeinsterDub

Pro12 confirm what the world and its mother already knew.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40649652?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_wales_sport&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=wales

No new details

irishbucsfan

Legal shmegal!

Cmon Celtic Rugby Limited we've already made our peace with this bit. Give us the juice!

Neil3030

awec wrote: »

IRFU will want to keep all the derbies for money reasons but also so they can rest players / have the out-of-band Ireland camps.

How do you rest players by having more games than the competition requires?

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

How do you rest players by having more games than the competition requires?

The importance is not so much in the number of games as when the games are played

Larbre34

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

I'm not going to get in a panic about this until we've gone through a season of it to see what the consequences are. If the system they come up with doesn't work then it can be changed.

I still cannot decide if this is an amazingly good or an unbelievably bad or somewhere in between idea.

This is a colossal square peg into a round hole. There are so many negatives IMO that far outweigh the (potential) extra revenue.

There are certain rivalries and characteristics that have developed in games between various Pro12 teams, if suddenly we arent going to be playing half of them anymore thats a big loss. And from a purely selfish point of view, i signed up for a season ticket which allowed for 11 home league games, frankly I dont want to accept 6 instead plus some archaic derbies that have no relevance and belong in the amateur era. Pro rugby's own Railway Cup. Id way sooner enter an FA cup style comp between the top couple of tiers of UK and Ireland clubs.

Tigerandahalf

Zzippy wrote: »

It's not a level playing field though. Connacht might not be rubbish and could lose out on a playoff place to a team who had easier extra games against a rubbish team. It rewards teams in a country where the standard is poorer - Irish inter-pros are far more competitive so it will always be harder for the Irish team to rack up points. Even with a poor Connacht and a poor Edinburgh, Glasgow will pick up an extra 10 points while each province that plays Connacht will rack up an extra 5, as they each play Connacht once extra while Glasgo get an additional 2 easy games. The dominant Italian team will also probably rack up 10 more points although unlikely to alter league standings.

I think the extra TV money should more than compensate for the loss of a derby game and they shouldn't be tinkering with the format to boost revenues of individual teams at the expense of a fair league. If the Welsh are so anxious let them have Judgement Day 3 times a season in the big stadium and make their money that way.

Nobody can get 100% of what they want.
We are still awaiting full details so we are all still speculating.

If Connacht and Munster are in the same conference next season (based on no.1 and no.4 country seeding) then Connacht could play the same games as they normally do. Great for a season ticket holder.

Glasgow would be in the opposite conference to Edinburgh and would play them twice at home and once away (based on alternating years).
If Edinburgh are at home twice there is no guarantee that Glasgow will win either not to mind get the full 5 points.

It could be a great boost for Scottish rugby as I think Edinburgh are moving to a smaller stadium this year so it should lead to a better atmosphere with tighter derby type games.

I wonder will teams charter flights for the games in South Africa. It might be possible for fans to travel out on the same plane.

damianmcr

Ulster already charter flights for European games in France I believe.

awec

Personally I find games against the bottom 6 of the pro12 to be filler around the games against the top 6.

I also personally think it's bollocks that Ulster (purely as an example) could win the league and not have had to play Munster in Thomond Park, or avoided having to play Scarlets in Llanelli. There is too much variance in the conferences. Home and away against every team and come the end of the year there can be no arguments about who is sitting in 1st position. We are now adding in a new randomness to it, which is how lucky you are with the conference draw. Not a problem for cups but doesn't really sit well with me for a league format.

Quin_Dub

awec wrote: »

Personally I find games against the bottom 6 of the pro12 to be filler around the games against the top 6.

I also personally think it's bollocks that Ulster (purely as an example) could win the league and not have had to play Munster in Thomond Park, or avoided having to play Scarlets in Llanelli. There is too much variance in the conferences. Home and away against every team and come the end of the year there can be no arguments about who is sitting in 1st position. We are now adding in a new randomness to it, which is how lucky you are with the conference draw. Not a problem for cups but doesn't really sit well with me for a league format.

Exactly - we are introducing the very thing that they are now trying to eradicate in Super Rugby.

Straight up league or nothing for me tbh.

awec

awec wrote: »

Personally I find games against the bottom 6 of the pro12 to be filler around the games against the top 6.

I also personally think it's bollocks that Ulster (purely as an example) could win the league and not have had to play Munster in Thomond Park, or avoided having to play Scarlets in Llanelli. There is too much variance in the conferences. Home and away against every team and come the end of the year there can be no arguments about who is sitting in 1st position. We are now adding in a new randomness to it, which is how lucky you are with the conference draw. Not a problem for cups but doesn't really sit well with me for a league format.

That's crazy talk. Ulster would never win the league!

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

That's crazy talk. Ulster would never win the league!

Don't worry, the optimism is usually knocked out of me by the end of September.

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The importance is not so much in the number of games as when the games are played

So again, how does playing more games than necessary help?

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

So again, how does playing more games than necessary help?

I don't think they're playing more games than necessary, but if it comes down to it you want as many games between teams you control so that you can fit them into the schedule at times where you want teams to be less intense, for example around new year when the international camp happens.

awec

Neil3030 wrote: »

So again, how does playing more games than necessary help?

It gives the IRFU 6 weekends a year they can rest the Ireland players / call them into camp and give the B teams a run out. Especially helpful if the weekends fall back to back.

Cookiemunster

Larbre34 wrote: »

This is a colossal square peg into a round hole. There are so many negatives IMO that far outweigh the (potential) extra revenue.

There are certain rivalries and characteristics that have developed in games between various Pro12 teams, if suddenly we arent going to be playing half of them anymore thats a big loss. And from a purely selfish point of view, i signed up for a season ticket which allowed for 11 home league games, frankly I dont want to accept 6 instead plus some archaic derbies that have no relevance and belong in the amateur era. Pro rugby's own Railway Cup. Id way sooner enter an FA cup style comp between the top couple of tiers of UK and Ireland clubs.

You are playing the teams in the other conference once on a home or away basis. So it's 6 home games against the teams in your conference and either 3 or 4 against teams from the other conference. So it's 9 or 10 home games, plus the extra home derby against whichever province you don't play at home.

Erik Shin

awec wrote: »

Don't worry, the optimism is usually knocked out of me by the end of September.

As late as that huh?

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't think they're playing more games than necessary, but if it comes down to it you want as many games between teams you control so that you can fit them into the schedule at times where you want teams to be less intense, for example around new year when the international camp happens.

awec wrote: »

It gives the IRFU 6 weekends a year they can rest the Ireland players / call them into camp and give the B teams a run out. Especially helpful if the weekends fall back to back.

Just so I'm up to speed - are we talking about:

Intraconference: Home + Away
Interconference: Home or Away
6 remaining interpros at times that suit in the year?

stephen_n

So it's done

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

Just so I'm up to speed - are we talking about:

Intraconference: Home + Away
Interconference: Home or Away
6 remaining interpros at times that suit in the year?

It'd be the 12 intraconference, 7 intraconference and then all you'd need are 2 remaining interpros?

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It'd be the 12 intraconference, 7 intraconference and then all you'd need are 2 remaining interpros?

OK so per team it's two extra games (kind of), so this somehow makes it easier to rest players? Why not just... Not have those games?

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It'd be the 12 intraconference, 7 intraconference and then all you'd need are 2 remaining interpros?

I think you'll need 4 games outside the conference system? Is this right? My head is wrecked trying to work it out.

e.g.

Conf A = Leinster, Ulster
Conf B = Munster, Connacht

1. Home and away vs your own conference teams
A - Leinster v Ulster, Ulster v Leinster
B - Munster v Connacht, Connacht v Munster

2. Home or away vs other conference teams
A/B - Munster v Leinster, Connacht v Ulster
A/B - Ulster v Munster, Leinster v Connacht

At this point the following fixtures are outstanding:
- Ulster v Connacht
- Munster v Ulster
- Connacht v Leinster
- Leinster v Munster

Neil3030

awec wrote: »

I think you'll need 5 games outside the conference system? Is this right? My head is wrecked trying to work it out. I don't get how I have 5 games extra at the end but I can't see what is missing.

e.g.

Conf A = Leinster, Ulster
Conf B = Munster, Connacht

1. Home and away vs your own conference teams
A - Leinster v Ulster, Ulster v Leinster
B - Munster v Connacht, Connacht v Munster

2. Home or away vs other conference teams
A/B - Munster v Leinster, Connacht v Ulster
A/B - Ulster v Munster, Leinster v Connacht

At this point the following fixtures are outstanding:
- Ulster v Connacht
- Munster v Ulster
- Connacht v Leinster
- Leinster v Munster
- Connacht v Leinster

I find it easier to think about the total number of games.

Each province should host 3 games = 12.

You have 2 in each conference = 4.

You have 2 between conferences = 2.

That leaves 6 to be played... (I think..)

awec

Found my problem, I had Connacht v Leinster twice.

So there are 4 fixtures outside of the conferences. 2 for each province.