14 team Pro 12 from 2017/2018??

As I've said before unless there's a huge increase in sponsorship and TV money I have zero interest in seeing a North American side in the league. They'll add nothing. Best way forward for the league, though probably impossible, would be to dump the Italians and tempt a few more South African sides.

Considering rugby is a niche sport at best in the US I don't see where the sponsorship and TV money is going to come from. Guinness might fancy getting their name on a sporting event over there but it's not much use if no Americans actually watch it.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

I think this talk of further expansion is absolutely mental.

It's a big enough stretch bringing in South Africa with its existing masses of rugby players and legions of fans all located in (roughly) the same time zone as the Pro12.

Trying to bring another country into the mix that has none of the above is absolutely f**king ridiculous. It won't work.

Timezone shouldn't be an issue for teams on the east coast of America. Kick off all games involving US teams at 6pm Irish time or 1pm US time. Play games on Saturday so as not to clash with NFL. May be a way to avoid clashing with college football as well.

Where you are right is the lack of fans. It would basically mean adding more Italians to the league. Not sure there is anywhere on the east coast which has the fanbase to sustain a team. Nor this side of Canada. Washington DC and Toronto however are high value destinations and maybe with the right support they could get a few thousand fans to commit.

Neil3030

I doubt attendances will be the main concern in America. It will be about getting rugby into the North American sports media narrative, and thereby getting Guinness more American media mentions every time someone talks or writes about the league.

vienne86

thomond2006 wrote: »

I see why from a financial POV the derbies are sacrosanct but as a fan I have no desire to watch interpros with shadow squads. Currently supporters are being sold a dud with the Xmas/New Year derbies. If Munster only play Ulster once every two years but with full strength lineups then that's fine by me.

I would have considered the derbies sacrosant, but I thnk you've hit the nail on the head here, Thomond - it has become a farce around Christmas, and we could do without it.

Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Timezone shouldn't be an issue for teams on the east coast of America. Kick off all games involving US teams at 6pm Irish time or 1pm US time. Play games on Saturday so as not to clash with NFL. May be a way to avoid clashing with college football as well.

Where you are right is the lack of fans. It would basically mean adding more Italians to the league. Not sure there is anywhere on the east coast which has the fanbase to sustain a team. Nor this side of Canada. Washington DC and Toronto however are high value destinations and maybe with the right support they could get a few thousand fans to commit.

And players.

Who will actually play for these clubs?

The USA national team might be competitive in the Pro12, but anything less would be serious cannon fodder.

Buer

Neil3030 wrote: »

I doubt attendances will be the main concern in America. It will be about getting rugby into the North American sports media narrative, and thereby getting Guinness more American media mentions every time someone talks or writes about the league.

They'll already have done their due dilligence on this situation before anything is progressed. The league has already met with NBC who expressed an interest in such a deal.

If they get their foot in the door with a major broadcaster, they shold infiltrate other areas of the local media. That's not to say that public interest could still be next to nil and it all comes tumbling down.

I'm entirely against an expansion into North America. I'd much rather see consolidation before looking at another South African side or an additional European based team in somewhere like the Basque region which has a solid concentration of the teams competing in the Spanish league for a spot in the Challenge Cup.

Rigor Mortis

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Timezone shouldn't be an issue for teams on the east coast of America. Kick off all games involving US teams at 6pm Irish time or 1pm US time. Play games on Saturday so as not to clash with NFL. May be a way to avoid clashing with college football as well.

Where you are right is the lack of fans. It would basically mean adding more Italians to the league. Not sure there is anywhere on the east coast which has the fanbase to sustain a team. Nor this side of Canada. Washington DC and Toronto however are high value destinations and maybe with the right support they could get a few thousand fans to commit.

Also, by saying timezone isn't a problem on the east coast there is an admission that you are restricted to there. If the east coast teams come in, it would surely require that longer term the teams in the rockies and beyond could enter and that is a pain in the ass.

Expand in Europe and SA.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

I see why from a financial POV the derbies are sacrosanct but as a fan I have no desire to watch interpros with shadow squads. Currently supporters are being sold a dud with the Xmas/New Year derbies. If Munster only play Ulster once every two years but with full strength lineups then that's fine by me.

Don't the derbies still draw the biggest crowds? That's going to play a big part in it all. As well it should.

I don't have a problem with so called "shadow squads" personally. Where I see the issue around Christmas time is the often hugely imbalanced nature of games. One team will go all out for their home game against an opponent with a weakened selection. Now that's bloody annoying.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

And players.

Who will actually play for these clubs?

The USA national team might be competitive in the Pro12, but anything less would be serious cannon fodder.

If its just one team in the US I reckon it'd be the national side plus some overseas signings funded by TV money. Same for Canada.

irishbucsfan

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Also, by saying timezone isn't a problem on the east coast there is an admission that you are restricted to there. If the east coast teams come in, it would surely require that longer term the teams in the rockies and beyond could enter and that is a pain in the ass.

Expand in Europe and SA.

There'd be absolutely no requirement to expand into the rockies or the west coast. Not sure why you're saying that. If they have to expand you've New York, Philly, Atlanta, Florida, the Carolinas etc. It's quite a large place as it turns out. If they need to expand beyond all that then it surely wouldn't be within the Celtic League

LeinsterDub

thomond2006 wrote: »

I If Munster only play Ulster once every two years but with full strength lineups then that's fine by me.

Minor correction once every year or once every two years in Munster

Riskymove

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Minor correction once every year or once every two years in Munster

the discussion is about possibly losing some of the derbies if even more teams join the league...not about the present system

Rigor Mortis

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Also, by saying timezone isn't a problem on the east coast there is an admission that you are restricted to there. If the east coast teams come in, it would surely require that longer term the teams in the rockies and beyond could enter and that is a pain in the ass.

Expand in Europe and SA.

The eastern half of of the US is far more populous than the western half. If you look at where NFL teams are based, maybe ~6 are west of the Rockies, ~24 east of the Rockies.

LeinsterDub

Riskymove wrote: »

the discussion is about possibly losing some of the derbies if even more teams join the league...not about the present system

Sorry . You're correct. Miss read it.

Former Former

The other point is that if USA expansion was a runaway success, and we somehow end up with multiple teams in the Pro>14, they'll eventually realise that they don't actually need the Europeans and Saffers at all.

So we would need it to be kind of successful, but not too successful?

Why bother?

Neil3030

Lunchtime games on the West Coast would kick off at 9pm for us, 10pm for the SA/Italians. No idea if they want a team out there, but it wouldn't be the end of the world to watch a game at that time.

Thud

So am I right in thinking Treviso will play Zebre 3 times?

Could skew things a bit

ArmaniJeanss

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Also, by saying timezone isn't a problem on the east coast there is an admission that you are restricted to there. If the east coast teams come in, it would surely require that longer term the teams in the rockies and beyond could enter and that is a pain in the ass.

Expand in Europe and SA.

What would be the actual problem with a game kicking off at 11pm or midnight irish time on a Friday/Saturday night? It sounds rather brilliant.

connemara man

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

What would be the actual problem with a game kicking off at 11pm or midnight irish time on a Friday/Saturday night? It sounds rather brilliant.

My liver wouldn't take it

connemara man

Thud wrote: »

So am I right in thinking Treviso will play Zebre 3 times?

Could skew things a bit

Glasgow will play Edinburgh three times and the king's will play the cheetahs three times

Former Former

Neil3030 wrote: »

Lunchtime games on the West Coast would kick off at 9pm for us, 10pm for the SA/Italians. No idea if they want a team out there, but it wouldn't be the end of the world to watch a game at that time.

For hardcore fans, no.

For mass market, 9pm on a Saturday is not feasible.

Zzippy

Buer wrote: »

Five international players? I've no idea how the SARU can guarantee that. They can't force players to move to a team. The Kings only have 1 player who has been capped by South Africa on their current panel (with a couple of Namibian internationals too). No test player will want to join a side before they see how the league is going to pan out.

They could force Rassie to cap players from those teams so they can count 5 internationals in the squad?

HurlingRanker

Can't see a US or Canada franchise being any stronger than an Aironi/Zebre standard, the potential value gained by tapping into new markets hangs on the competitiveness of the new teams, the South Africa teams will add value and won't dilute the overall quality of the league. Adding whipping boys won't retain the interest of the new markets for very long.

I feel the long term risk of adding Canada + USA teams far outweighs the short term gains it would bring.

irishbucsfan

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

What would be the actual problem with a game kicking off at 11pm or midnight irish time on a Friday/Saturday night? It sounds rather brilliant.

People go to bed.

But no need to play games that late

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

The other point is that if USA expansion was a runaway success, and we somehow end up with multiple teams in the Pro>14, they'll eventually realise that they don't actually need the Europeans and Saffers at all.

So we would need it to be kind of successful, but not too successful?

Why bother?

A minute ago you were wondering who was going to play for this single US team at all. Now you're suggesting they could reach a point where they have their own professional league, which obviously necessitates enough players to field multiple teams, 10+. It would take decades for them to reach that point.

Former Former

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

A minute ago you were wondering who was going to play for this single US team at all. Now you're suggesting they could reach a point where they have their own professional league, which obviously necessitates enough players to field multiple teams, 10+. It would take decades for them to reach that point.

I'm not suggesting they would reach that point at all. Quite the opposite.

Neil3030

What sort of viewership/attendance do 7s tournaments get in the states, do people know? And what sort of marketing band do these folks fall into, are we talking NASCAR (fast food, debt consolidation), American Football (trucks, mobile phone plans) or golf (ED meds, wealth management)?

Point is, we may not need a huge amount of people to get into the American franchise for it to make serious wedge for the league.

kmart6

Neil3030 wrote: »

What sort of viewership/attendance do 7s tournaments get in the states, do people know? And what sort of marketing band do these folks fall into, are we talking NASCAR (fast food, debt consolidation), American Football (trucks, mobile phone plans) or golf (ED meds, wealth management)?

Point is, we may not need a huge amount of people to get into the American franchise for it to make serious wedge for the league.

From here for the Las Vegas 7s, obviously it's not a perfect indicator as I'd imagine there are a lot of complimentary tickets but gives an idea.

According to a press release put out by tournament PR contractors Kirvin Doak, the 2017 tournament attendance (which includes everyone, including paid fans, holders of complimentary volunteers, staff, officials, and athletes) was 80,691. This compares to last year's figure (also release by Kirvin Doak) of 80,138. The 2017 attendance increase was 553, or 0.69%.

irishbucsfan

I personally have done a perfectly scientific investigation as to American interest in the league.

I was eating breakfast in a hotel near San Fran this February during the 6 Nations, watching the game on a laptop while eating. A gentlemen came over and watched the game with me. He said it was awesome and brutal. And then he said he would watch it if it was on more often. THEREFORE, the league can't be anything but a success. And given my current employer has locations across the East Coast that I can sneak over to for gameweeks, I think it'd be frankly idiotic for the Pro 14 not to expand to the United States. QED.

stephen_n

Assuming whatever American side came into the league, would be the only fully professional outfit in the US, then they would soon attract pretty much the whole American squad anyway.

Buer

stephen_n wrote: »

Assuming whatever American side came into the league, would be the only fully professional outfit in the US, then they would soon attract pretty much the whole American squad anyway.

It would in theory. In reality, there's a number of them that are part-time/semi pro players and would have to give up their careers and move to wherever the team is based which would be a big change for what probably wouldn't be particularly big money.

Zzippy

Any update on when fixtures will be announced? Believe Connacht have Kings at home in the second game so the SA teams will be getting straight into it, no waiting til after Currie Cup then...

KBurke85

Zzippy wrote: »

Any update on when fixtures will be announced? Believe Connacht have Kings at home in the second game so the SA teams will be getting straight into it, no waiting til after Currie Cup then...

Due next week, probably Tuesday after the bank holiday

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Five international players? I've no idea how the SARU can guarantee that. They can't force players to move to a team. The Kings only have 1 player who has been capped by South Africa on their current panel (with a couple of Namibian internationals too). No test player will want to join a side before they see how the league is going to pan out.

cynically, they could achieve this very easily by just capping a few of the players cheaply!

pickarooney

Buer wrote: »

They'll already have done their due dilligence on this situation before anything is progressed. The league has already met with NBC who expressed an interest in such a deal.

If they get their foot in the door with a major broadcaster, they shold infiltrate other areas of the local media. That's not to say that public interest could still be next to nil and it all comes tumbling down.

I'm entirely against an expansion into North America. I'd much rather see consolidation before looking at another South African side or an additional European based team in somewhere like the Basque region which has a solid concentration of the teams competing in the Spanish league for a spot in the Challenge Cup.

Hmm, a Basque team as a means of bringing Bayonne and Biarritz back to top level rugby is interesting.

pickarooney

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I personally have done a perfectly scientific investigation as to American interest in the league.

I was eating breakfast in a hotel near San Fran this February during the 6 Nations, watching the game on a laptop while eating. A gentlemen came over and watched the game with me. He said it was awesome and brutal. And then he said he would watch it if it was on more often. THEREFORE, the league can't be anything but a success. And given my current employer has locations across the East Coast that I can sneak over to for gameweeks, I think it'd be frankly idiotic for the Pro 14 not to expand to the United States. QED.

Awesome and brutal. Which is it?

Buer

pickarooney wrote: »

Hmm, a Basque team as a means of bringing Bayonne and Biarritz back to top level rugby is interesting.

Yup, was thinking they could be based in San Sebastian. 200k living there and only 45 minutes from Biarritz and an hour from Bilbao to the east, another decent population base of 300-400k. Not sure Biarritz or their fans would ever seek to move/support another league though. They're steeped in the history of the T14 and I doubt the fans would ever abandon their team.

All pie in the sky stuff as it's one proposal I haven't seen mentioned at all when I've seen German, Russian, South African and American expansions all discussed and supposedly examined at an official level.

ki

I think any further expansion should be the basis for a div 1 and 2.

It would give us the best quality rugby week in week out, and allow for the development of other countries.

Neil3030

ki wrote: »

I think any further expansion should be the basis for a div 1 and 2.

It would give us the best quality rugby week in week out, and allow for the development of other countries.

I can't see that working financially. Who'll be watching division 2 matches?

Exclamation Marc

ki wrote: »

I think any further expansion should be the basis for a div 1 and 2.

It would give us the best quality rugby week in week out, and allow for the development of other countries.

I can't see that working at all. Depriving already struggling teams from playing top quality opposition will just compound their fate. Teams will then get marooned in division two and just fold. If Zebre are struggling now and just hanging on, they'd be dead in the water in a division two with others not far behind. Less TV money, less gates, less interest and it'd collapse in on itself.

ki

Expanding any further would put us down the same path as Super Rugby. To many teams, alot of bad games and a convoluted conference system.

The currently proposed one is decent but I can see the derbies being dropped in 1-2 years.

Less is more when it comes to a quality product. If you have to wait a over year for a home match v another province would be a good thing. I've attended some dead rubber inter pros in the past 3 years.

irishbucsfan

Conference systems aren't inherently bad. They just have to be designed by sensible human beings.

The league could easily expand further if there were more South Africans to join for example.

The Lost Sheep

ki wrote:

Expanding any further would put us down the same path as Super Rugby. To many teams, alot of bad games and a convoluted conference system.
The currently proposed one is decent but I can see the derbies being dropped in 1-2 years.
Less is more when it comes to a quality product. If you have to wait a over year for a home match v another province would be a good thing. I've attended some dead rubber inter pros in the past 3 years.

the interpros won't be dropped. Too much income lost and less isn't more in this case. These games will virtually sell out every time or be fun close to sell out unlike quite a few other games so provinces would be mental to lose them

Exclamation Marc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

the interpros won't be dropped. Too much income lost and less isn't more in this case. These games will virtually sell out every time or be fun close to sell out unlike quite a few other games so provinces would be mental to lose them

Totally agree. The problem is not the number of derbies, it's the planning and scheduling of them. Back to back at Christmas does not work nor does planning them as final round dead rubbers.

PTH2009

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Totally agree. The problem is not the number of derbies, it's the planning and scheduling of them. Back to back at Christmas does not work nor does planning them as final round dead rubbers.

I liked the Munster vs Leinster post 6nations game they used to have, for the last few years we played Leinster in October and then again on Boxing day or the 27th Dec.

Cookiemunster

PTH2009 wrote: »

I liked the Munster vs Leinster post 6nations game they used to have, for the last few years we played Leinster in October and then again on Boxing day or the 27th Dec.

Boxing Day? Only Ulster fans call it that! ;-)

The Rape of Lucretia

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

the interpros won't be dropped. Too much income lost and less isn't more in this case. These games will virtually sell out every time or be fun close to sell out unlike quite a few other games so provinces would be mental to lose them

Totally disagree. The difference between interpro crowds, particularly if the farcical b-team business continues, and a-another game, particularly any of the ones outside Lansdowne Rd is negligible. And nothing in the overall picture of an expanded international franchise and the TV revenue.
The days of a big glorious sold out Lansdowne (and it was really only a Munster Leinster thing anyway, while Munster was on top and dropping, and Leinster was below them but on the up), are long gone. Sportsground is zilch anyway. Thomond, Ravenhill : 5k people up or down for one game doesnt really amount to a hill beans in this crazy Pro12/14 world.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The days of a big glorious sold out Lansdowne (and it was really only a Munster Leinster thing anyway, while Munster was on top and dropping, and Leinster was below them but on the up), are long gone. Sportsground is zilch anyway. Thomond, Ravenhill : 5k people up or down for one game doesnt really amount to a hill beans in this crazy Pro12/14 world.

When were these days exactly and how were they different to now?

bilston

Ulster play the Cheetahs at the Kingspan on Fri 1st Sept.

Buer

bilston wrote: »

Ulster play the Cheetahs at the Kingspan on Fri 1st Sept.

Nice of the league to give the Cheetahs a comforting start to the campaign against a fellow South African side.