14 team Pro 12 from 2017/2018??

Hastentoadd

I find this whole discussion unlikely, and the reason for that is the fact it has never been fed to the media, nobody I know at the provinces knows anything about it, which makes the whole thing a bit of enormous speculation in my eyes

Dog Botherer

From the official account of the now defunct PRO Rugby league in the US...

https://twitter.com/ProRugbyUSA/status/883142729756274689

LeinsterDub

Podge_irl wrote: »

The number of teams is unfortunate for a conference system - having different numbers of home and away games is really not good.

The pro everyone league has got you covered
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/guinness-pro12/south-african-and-us-franchises-to-join-pro12-1-4491808

thomond2006

Dog Botherer wrote: »

From the official account of the now defunct PRO Rugby league in the US...

https://twitter.com/ProRugbyUSA/status/883142729756274689

PRO Rugby is/was run by a cowboy.

Burkie1203

Neil treacy has retweeted a statement about the cheetahs which says they have accepted an agreement regarding their super rugby status and will look at other international competitions options

Burkie1203

Cheetahs and Kings officially out of super rugby.

193hrs of driving to the Free State Rugby Stadium from Ireland.
That would be some trip

Rocko

Wouldn't the weather n Bloemfontein b crazy hot during d pro 12/14 season as it'll b summer there

Buer

Rocko wrote: »

Wouldn't the weather n Bloemfontein b crazy hot during d pro 12/14 season as it'll b summer there

I would imagine they'll play the bulk of their away games during the height of their summer to reduce travel costs and avoid games in crazy weather.

There will still surely be some matches in some pretty intense conditions though.

Former Former

Statement on SA union website seems to confirm that both the Kings and Cheetahs are going somewhere anyway:
http://www.sarugby.co.za/article.aspx?category=sarugby/superrugby&id=4060234

The whole thing is mental.

Actually, interestingly, one thing that didn't occur to me but the chances of some altitude and warm weather training mid season would be opened up by having to travel to SA anyway. You really want a couple of weeks to get the full benefit of altitude is the only thing.

Some absolutely outstanding training and performance centres near Bloemfontein and Pretoria.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, interestingly, one thing that didn't occur to me but the chances of some altitude and warm weather training mid season would be opened up by having to travel to SA anyway. You really want a couple of weeks to get the full benefit of altitude is the only thing.

Some absolutely outstanding training and performance centres near Bloemfontein and Pretoria.

That is interesting. It'd also make sense if they did back to back away games for sides where possible, which might make those camps a more realistic possibility.

CIARAN_BOYLE

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That is interesting. It'd also make sense if they did back to back away games for sides where possible, which might make those camps a more realistic possibility.

It has to be back-to-back. Even if only to make flights cheaper.

errlloyd

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That is interesting. It'd also make sense if they did back to back away games for sides where possible, which might make those camps a more realistic possibility.

I think I broke this down earlier, but only 6 teams (in either two conference format) will have away games against both South Africans in a given year. So assume those 6 teams do mini-tours to South Africa. The other 6 teams will only have away games against one of the South African teams. Those 6 fixtures could be done in Allianz Park or alternative.

irishbucsfan

errlloyd wrote: »

I think I broke this down earlier, but only 6 teams (in either two conference format) will have away games against both South Africans in a given year. So assume those 6 teams do mini-tours to South Africa. The other 6 teams will only have away games against one of the South African teams. Those 6 fixtures could be done in Allianz Park or alternative.

Well we have no idea what the format will be yet. We'll see.

typhoony

irish times article confirming 2 groups of 7 with 3 rounds of interpro's, also teams to recieve financial compensation

MarinersBlues

typhoony wrote: »

irish times article confirming 2 groups of 7 with 3 rounds of interpro's, also teams to recieve financial compensation

What about season ticket holders?

How will three rounds of inter-pros work?

Dog Botherer

thomond2006 wrote: »

PRO Rugby is/was run by a cowboy.

Well aware of that, just thought it was interesting.

bilston

MarinersBlues wrote: »

typhoony wrote: »

irish times article confirming 2 groups of 7 with 3 rounds of interpro's, also teams to recieve financial compensation

What about season ticket holders?

How will three rounds of inter-pros work?

Any extra games now will just have to be sold separate to the season ticket. Season ticket holders might get first dibs, but it gives the provinces the opportunity to come up with some decent offers to attract new fans. Kids for a quid or something like that...undoubtedly wishful thinking on my part.

Obviously if there are fewer games than previously advertised then that's a problem that so be hard to overcome.

irishbucsfan

I'm not exactly sure why, but this is seeming more and more like its going to be a disaster

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm not exactly sure why, but this is seeming more and more like its going to be a disaster

We just have to wait and see how it works out. I think they need to have as an uncomplicated format as possible. By the sounds of things that isn't going to happen and that worries me. The Super 12 and subsequently Super 14 worked because it was easy to understand, now it's a complete mish mash and it has suffered as a result. Now for the likes of us who are rugby mad etc we will no doubt get to grips with it but for casual fans it could prove a turn off.

But let's wait and see.

LeinsterDub

typhoony wrote: »

irish times article confirming 2 groups of 7 with 3 rounds of interpro's, also teams to recieve financial compensation

Link?

molloyjh

A 15 game tournament when fans have already paid for a 22 game tournament. Unless there's cross conference games there'll be uproar over that.

LeinsterDub

molloyjh wrote: »

A 15 game tournament when fans have already paid for a 22 game tournament. Unless there's cross conference games there'll be uproar over that.

As a Leinster season ticket holder for many a long year I can tell you that it doesn't bother me at all

molloyjh

LeinsterDub wrote: »

As a Leinster season ticket holder for many a long year I can tell you that it doesn't bother me at all

Paying the same amount for less doesn't bother you? Fair enough. It would bother most people I'd imagine.

LeinsterDub

molloyjh wrote: »

Paying the same amount for less doesn't bother you? Fair enough. It would bother most people I'd imagine.

Sure half the games are pure muck anyway. If the South Africans are competitive then yeah I'd rather see them than Dragons or the Italians

Quin_Dub

Irish Times article

The league would be split into two conferences of seven with the loss of home match revenue covered by three rounds of inter-provincials – the Irish provinces currently play each other twice, home and away – despite the congestion this would cause in an already well stocked fixture list.

The top three sides in each conference would progress to the play-offs in a similar situation to the French league whereby the top two teams would be waiting in the semi-finals.

Not liking the whole Conference thing at all..not at all

Former Former

molloyjh wrote: »

A 15 game tournament when fans have already paid for a 22 game tournament. Unless there's cross conference games there'll be uproar over that.

There must be. The IT article refers to more fixture congestion so I guess it will happen.
- two games against each team in your own conference
- one against each team in the other
- three additional interpros
Is 22 matches.

The obvious problem is that if the extra interpros are basically friendlies, will anyone care?

Burkie1203

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Irish Times article



Not liking the whole Conference thing at all..not at all

Third round of interpros could be double header in aviva potentially

MarinersBlues

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Third round of interpros could be double header in aviva potentially

Too many interpros will see them lose some significance.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

The obvious problem is that if the extra interpros are basically friendlies, will anyone care?

I can't imagine they will. If there's a 3rd round of interpros and they aren't competitive then I'd imagine it'll be the IRFU who pay the least attention!

I'm a STH. I'd be OK with losing a game or two, like LeinsterDub.

molloyjh

A game or two is one thing. But 6 home games plus 1 or 2 home inter-pro games means every second season could have 7 home games. Down from 11. Would you be happy with 3 or 4 less games?

LeinsterDub

molloyjh wrote: »

A game or two is one thing. But 6 home games plus 1 or 2 home inter-pro games means every second season could have 7 home games. Down from 11. Would you be happy with 3 or 4 less games?

They'll play across conferences. How could it possibly be 4 games down. 6 home games in our own conference. At least 3 in the other

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

A game or two is one thing. But 6 home games plus 1 or 2 home inter-pro games means every second season could have 7 home games. Down from 11. Would you be happy with 3 or 4 less games?

Noone has said it's 6 home games though

molloyjh

LeinsterDub wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

A game or two is one thing. But 6 home games plus 1 or 2 home inter-pro games means every second season could have 7 home games. Down from 11. Would you be happy with 3 or 4 less games?

They'll play across conferences. How could it possibly be 4 games down. 6 home games in our own conference. At least 3 in the other

Is it not 3 rounds of interpros in total? 3 home games would surely need 6 rounds?

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Is it not 3 rounds of interpros in total? 3 home games would surely need 6 rounds?

What I read it as is a 19 game season with 3 interpros.

molloyjh

Assuming no cross conference games (which I'm hoping doesn't happen as per FFs post) the you're talking 12 games in conference (6 home and 6 away). 3 rounds of interpros means guaranteed 1 at home, possibly 2. So that's 7-8 home games. Or am I reading this wrong?

LeinsterDub

molloyjh wrote: »

Assuming no cross conference games (which I'm hoping doesn't happen as per FFs post) the you're talking 12 games in conference (6 home and 6 away). 3 rounds of interpros means guaranteed 1 at home, possibly 2. So that's 7-8 home games. Or am I reading this wrong?

You can't have a league where half the teams don't play each other. I have to hope you're reading it wrong. My understanding is you'll play cross conference and the Scots, Italians and South African play 3 games against each other in order to maintain the 3 Irish and Welsh derbies. My understanding is also these games will count for league points.

irishbucsfan

LeinsterDub wrote: »

My understanding is also these games will count for league points.

This would simultaneously be better and worse than them not counting for league points!

But it does at least open up the possibility of the Irish sides not being in the same conference.

molloyjh

Surely then the 3 rounds of interpros would fit nicely into a 14 game in-conference fixture list with a 7 game home or away against the other conference idea that errloyd floated. Each conference with 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian and 1 SA.

Hastentoadd

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Third round of interpros could be double header in aviva potentially

Aside from the third round idea, i love the idea of a double header interpro setup in the Aviva at least once a year. The possible problem associated with this is the teams lose local gate revenue. But surely the IRFU could refund them in kind from the receipts garnered from the Aviva. There is also the issue of season ticket holders but just give them a free pass into the Aviva. Everyone's happy and you have a great days entertainment

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Surely then the 3 rounds of interpros would fit nicely into a 14 game in-conference fixture list with a 7 game home or away against the other conference idea that errloyd floated. Each conference with 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian and 1 SA.

Yes the extra interpros make that a much more palatable possibility.

bilston

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Irish Times article



Not liking the whole Conference thing at all..not at all

Third round of interpros could be double header in aviva potentially

Oh great...more games in Dublin...wonderful...

AbusesToilets

The interpro games at the minute tends to be rather underwhelming, due most of the top players being rented etc. An extra round of games isn't likely to improve this.

thomond2006

I am not a fan of more interpros with shadow squads.

Jump_In_Jack

Is this not the idea:
Two conferences,
7 in each; broken down as each having 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian, 1 South African.
Play own conference home AND away,
Play other conference home OR away,
That's 12 conference and 7 inter-conference, total of 19 league matches.
That's 9 or 10 home matches.

For the Irish teams that would mean playing each other Irish province in the league but only one of them twice.

To make up for loss of home revenue as Pro12 had 22 matches with 11 home matches,
I assume they are proposing to complete the interpros as extra chance to boost revenue.
Therefore 2 extra matches, one home and one away.
Result is 21 matches,
With either 10 or 11 matches at home.
That's pretty close to the guaranteed 11 at home previously.
So losing one home game every second year isn't such an issue hopefully, especially with compensation being paid, and the chance to have one South African team at home is a bonus.

Also possibility of an extra home match in the quarter-final of the playoffs.

That's assuming that 3 rounds of inter-pros just means the same as it already is except 2 of the inter-pro matches will not be counted as league matches.
i.e. Play two provinces of the 3 other provinces in 3 separate rounds throughout the season.

LeinsterDub

thomond2006 wrote: »

I am not a fan of more interpros with shadow squads.

Of course they are. Sure the league is second in the list of the provinces'/clubs' priorities and third or fourth in the union's priorities depending on the year

The Rape of Lucretia

molloyjh wrote: »

A game or two is one thing. But 6 home games plus 1 or 2 home inter-pro games means every second season could have 7 home games. Down from 11. Would you be happy with 3 or 4 less games?

The price of the ST would come down proportionately of course, as it would have to, so it could suit as many, or more people, better, than it would inconvenience by fewer games.

Extra interpro 'friendlies' are a nonsense. Pointless, and coaches would only play shadow teams as their rest players for the games that matter.

Jump_In_Jack

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The price of the ST would come down proportionately of course, as it would have to, so it could suit as many, or more people, better, than it would inconvenience by fewer games.

Extra interpro 'friendlies' are a nonsense. Pointless, and coaches would only play shadow teams as their rest players for the games that matter.

Those friendlies could be played at Christmas when the Irish squad have a camp.
Would be a shadow squad anyway, but making them outside of the league might be a positive rather than a negative.
As someone suggested already could make them double headers in the Aviva to draw a bigger crowd and better atmosphere.
Small price to pay to increase the league size, which is the only way to increase the revenue.

Also while those matches are being played,
The Welsh teams could do the same,
And the other teams could play the other team from same country home and away.
Around Christmas time it would do no harm to allow the teams experiment a bit and rotate their squads.
Would allow for national camps to take place without any fuss and for players carrying niggling injuries to be given an extra break.

Neil3030

It's very short term thinking to protect a certain number of interpros, if it results in an imbalanced, confusing league structure that will ultimately undermine the competition.

They need to decide if the league will benefit, long term, by including these two SA teams, and if so, they need to then prioritize a coherent competition structure.

If not, forget it and keep going as is.