14 team Pro 12 from 2017/2018??

irishbucsfan

Supposedly this is going to be announced next Saturday after the Saffers play their last match.

12 million euro increase in TV money seems like a very large amount of money...

A cagey Cheetahs managing director Harold Verster said they were “excited by the news” and gave credit to SA Rugby chief executive Jurie Roux for his foresight and assistance in facilitating an alternative route for the two teams.

When asked if he was happy with the financial aspects of the deal, he only said: “We’ve reached a very amicable solution with SA Rugby, which will keep us on the same level as Super Rugby on every level".

Verster also revealed that part of the negotiated settlement included SA Rugby helping the two franchises with extra players and coaching for the first year of their venture.

He wouldn’t be drawn on any details other than that the franchises’ participation in Pro 12 will be announced on Saturday, the day after the Cheetahs and the Kings play their last Super Rugby game – against each other.

The competition proper – which features teams from Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy and is sponsored by Guinness and broadcaster Sky Sports – begins next month and concludes in May, meaning it will overlap with the Currie Cup until the end of October.

The addition of the Cheetahs and the Kings will necessitate a name change to Pro 14 after a €12 million (R183 million) increase in TV money into the competition, with those already in the tournament getting €500 000 more to cover the costs of accommodating the South African sides.

The competition will be played along the lines of two conferences of seven, with three teams automatically qualifying for the knockout stages and the top two teams making the semifinals in the process.

http://m.sport24.co.za/sport24/Rugby/SuperRugby/kings-cheetahs-exclusion-a-win-win-situation-20170709

Neil3030

South African players leave the country by the boatload because the money is so much better in Europe. Yet the two weakest South African franchises will bring €12m extra revenue to the Pro12? This just doesn't add up for me!

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

South African players leave the country by the boatload because the money is so much better in Europe. Yet the two weakest South African franchises will bring €12m extra revenue to the Pro12? This just doesn't add up for me!

They're borrowing Teresa May's money tree as soon as she has the DUP sorted.

Just an idea, that's probably been floated about already, but here it is, just in case.
Say Group 1 has Leinster and Connacht
Group 2 has Munster and Ulster

So Connacht vs Leinster play each other twice, and Munster play Ulster twice (home and away)

So when Connacht play Munster, and Ulster play Leinster, say over Christmas, would they do a double header in the Aviva, like Judgement Day in Wales.
And then do the other fixtures around Easter in the Aviva as well?
Season tickets get their tickets to both games in the Aviva, and it's sort of a neutral venue (or at least highly discounted tickets)

connemara man

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just an idea, that's probably been floated about already, but here it is, just in case.
Say Group 1 has Leinster and Connacht
Group 2 has Munster and Ulster

So Connacht vs Leinster play each other twice, and Munster play Ulster twice (home and away)

So when Connacht play Munster, and Ulster play Leinster, say over Christmas, would they do a double header in the Aviva, like Judgement Day in Wales.
And then do the other fixtures around Easter in the Aviva as well?
Season tickets get their tickets to both games in the Aviva, and it's sort of a neutral venue (or at least highly discounted tickets)

Firstly it's not really a neutral venue as Leinster play certain matches there season on season. Secondly would the gate be split 4 ways or the 2 ways between the 2 "home teams". Thirdly I think too much rugby is centralised in Dublin as it is, the senior men's internationals, women's internationals, 7s and underage all in Dublin.

thomond2006

https://twitter.com/DjRossouw87?s=09

Apparently no 'home' games in London and home playoffs would be held in SA.

thomond2006

More here: https://www.ofm.co.za/article/rugby/246924/the-cheetahs-move-to-pro14-an-apparent-done-deal?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

More here: https://www.ofm.co.za/article/rugby/246924/the-cheetahs-move-to-pro14-an-apparent-done-deal?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

It is believed that a third South African franchise was prepared to wave their Super Rugby rights to compete up north.

Interesting....

AbusesToilets

This seems like the initial push by SARU to break into NH en Masse. Wouldn't shock me if the goal ultimately is entrance into PR or a B&I league and SA into the 6Ns.

bilston

AbusesToilets wrote: »

This seems like the initial push by SARU to break into NH en Masse. Wouldn't shock me if the goal ultimately is entrance into PR or a B&I league and SA into the 6Ns.

I don't really see why they would go into the Premiership. Surely having Leinster, Munster and Ulster would be more attractive to Premiership clubs than the SA sides and surely the same governance issues that exist with having the provinces in the Prem would exist for the SA sides?

The natural place for all the SA sides is the Pro 12/14. Also it is already a cross border competition. Of the big boys (Bulls, Sharks and Stormers) move North then I think it will be into our league.

This may explain why there are rumours that BT are looking into a B&I league. They'd get the SA sides as well.

Neil3030

molloyjh wrote: »

Interesting....

Yeah that actually doesn't hugely surprise me. I'd imagine there's a lot of upside to the Pro14 relative to Super Rugby for SA teams; less travel, more away games on at watchable times, possibly even a more realistic prospect of prize money in a stronger currency and further revenues from the RCC.

OldRio

I'm beginning to think that this is the start of something monumental in Rugby.
The Pro12 and the South African teams joined by the English teams in a new conference system.
BT plough the money in to set it up. ( Much like Sky did when the Premiership football in England broke away from the Football League.)
Money.Money. Money.

awec

I don't see it happening because I don't see the Pro12 unions giving up control of their teams.

Cookiemunster

So according to that article this years final is on in Cardiff. I assume the Principality rather than CAP. And the Cheetahs already know their fixtures. Looks like we'll get the announcement and the seasons fixtures together.

KBurke85

I'd be interested to know how they work out who is what conference especially with means to having two similar strength conferences.

OldRio

awec wrote: »

I don't see it happening because I don't see the Pro12 unions giving up control of their teams.

I agree but money talks.

thomond2006

KBurke85 wrote: »

I'd be interested to know how they work out who is what conference especially with means to having two similar strength conferences.

I imagine something like:

Conference 1:
1st Irish team
4th Irish team
2nd Welsh team
3rd Welsh team
Top Scottish team
Bottom Italian team
Cheetahs

Conference 2:
2nd Irish team
3rd Irish team
1st Welsh team
4th Welsh team
Bottom Scottish team
Top Italian team
Southern Kings

That gives you:
1: Munster, Connacht, Ospreys, Cardiff Blues, Glasgow Warriors, Benetton Treviso, Cheetahs
2: Leinster, Ulster, Scarlets, Dragons, Edinburgh, Zebre, Southern Kings

KBurke85

KBurke85 wrote: »

I'd be interested to know how they work out who is what conference especially with means to having two similar strength conferences.

As long as Connacht dont lose our away match in Edinburgh. Thats always my favorite away trip

Just for fun, I used a random number generator to create the conferences.

Group 1:
Ulster
Leinster
Scarlets
Ospreys
Edinburgh
Zebre
Kings

Group 2:
Connacht
Munster
Cardiff
Dragons
Glasgow
Treviso
Cheetahs

I like Connachts chances of making the play-offs


Swap Ospreys with the Dragons, and I got the same groups as thomand

awec

You think they'll split up Leinster and Munster?

awec

awec wrote: »

You think they'll split up Leinster and Munster?

Well I just hope it' not rigged. The conferences need to be as fair as possible, or at least done in a transparent lottery type of way

connemara man

This is from the Irish times

"The league would be split into two conferences of seven with the loss of home match revenue covered by three rounds of interprovincials – the Irish provinces currently play each other twice, home and away – despite the congestion this would cause in an already well stocked fixture list.

The provinces look like they'll be kept together then play again later to make up the fixtures unless I have misunderstood what they are saying

Tigerandahalf

Looks like this is going to happen. Incredible that it could all be ready to go so soon. You wonder have things been rushed into or were plans kept very quiet.

Can't be good for the Super 15 long term. More money up north will suck the better SA players into the pro14.

It has to be good for the Champions cup too. I'd imagine there is more depth to SA rugby than up North so these teams could be very competitive pretty quickly.

AbusesToilets

Would it be so mad bad if the Unions gave up more control over the Provinces? They have already accepted outside financial investment

thomond2006

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Would it be so mad bad if the Unions gave up more control over the Provinces? They have already accepted outside financial investment

In their mind: absolutely.

awec

Also, the reason their current policy works is because half the teams in the Pro12 are crap and you can beat them with weakened teams anyway.

If they introduce some sort of B+I league then every game is going to be tough and they won't get away with these rest weeks anywhere near as much as they do today. Fan patience will run out. They can say goodbye to their extra Ireland training camps and all.

The only way I can see the IRFU going anywhere near such a league is if the WRU and SFU force their hand.

AbusesToilets

awec wrote: »

Also, the reason their current policy works is because half the teams in the Pro12 are crap and you can beat them with weakened teams anyway.

If they introduce some sort of B+I league then every game is going to be tough and they won't get away with these rest weeks anywhere near as much as they do today. Fan patience will run out. They can say goodbye to their extra Ireland training camps and all.

The only way I can see the IRFU going anywhere near such a league is if the WRU and SFU force their hand.

I would be in favor of a tougher league tbh. The Irish teams are by far the worst at under valuing the Pro 12

Tigerandahalf

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I would be in favor of a tougher league tbh. The Irish teams are by far the worst at under valuing the Pro 12

I'd agree. The pro12 is poor at the moment. Too many players are rested. Even the key games at xmas one of the games has a 2nd team out.
If the pro12 was really competitive and generating a good income the European competition might be less important then.

Travelling to SA might also appeal to the NH teams as they could get a warm weather camp out of it. They could be over there for 2/3 weeks during the winter.

molloyjh

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I'd agree. The pro12 is poor at the moment. Too many players are rested. Even the key games at xmas one of the games has a 2nd team out.
If the pro12 was really competitive and generating a good income the European competition might be less important then.

Travelling to SA might also appeal to the NH teams as they could get a warm weather camp out of it. They could be over there for 2/3 weeks during the winter.

Players aren't rested for Europe. They are rested for the Irish team. So that will continue to happen regardless. The European games tend to be on at a time when we're between Test windows, meaning international availability is more likely.

The Pro12 is a poor tournament in part because people spend a lot of time running it down. If you look at the last few years we've seen Scarlets, Connacht and Glasgow all win the thing for the first time. 6 teams have won the AP in the last 10 years, 7 have won the T14 and 6 the Pro12. Sure there are poor teams at the bottom end of the table, but there are in all leagues. I'd hardly call Bristol or Worcester quality teams. Even the likes of Newcastle, who finished in the same position as Connacht, wouldn't be great. Bayonne and Grenoble wouldn't be fantastic either. Bad and all as Treviso and Zebre are have they ever been as bad as London Welsh?

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Players aren't rested for Europe. They are rested for the Irish team. So that will continue to happen regardless. The European games tend to be on at a time when we're between Test windows, meaning international availability is more likely.

The Pro12 is a poor tournament in part because people spend a lot of time running it down. If you look at the last few years we've seen Scarlets, Connacht and Glasgow all win the thing for the first time. 6 teams have won the AP in the last 10 years, 7 have won the T14 and 6 the Pro12. Sure there are poor teams at the bottom end of the table, but there are in all leagues. I'd hardly call Bristol or Worcester quality teams. Even the likes of Newcastle, who finished in the same position as Connacht, wouldn't be great. Bayonne and Grenoble wouldn't be fantastic either. Bad and all as Treviso and Zebre are have they ever been as bad as London Welsh?

I think the argument here is if a B+I league is created this will not continue to happen regardless, at least nowhere near to the extent it does today.

bennyl10

molloyjh wrote: »

Players aren't rested for Europe. They are rested for the Irish team. So that will continue to happen regardless. The European games tend to be on at a time when we're between Test windows, meaning international availability is more likely.

The Pro12 is a poor tournament in part because people spend a lot of time running it down. If you look at the last few years we've seen Scarlets, Connacht and Glasgow all win the thing for the first time. 6 teams have won the AP in the last 10 years, 7 have won the T14 and 6 the Pro12. Sure there are poor teams at the bottom end of the table, but there are in all leagues. I'd hardly call Bristol or Worcester quality teams. Even the likes of Newcastle, who finished in the same position as Connacht, wouldn't be great. Bayonne and Grenoble wouldn't be fantastic either. Bad and all as Treviso and Zebre are have they ever been as bad as London Welsh?

This^

For some reason Irish fans have this watered down version of the pro 12.. attendances back that up!

Pro 12 matches are usually, baring 1/2 Italian games, very competitive matches and damn good contests!!

People complain the pro 12 isn't good.. when a lot of Irish fans are Europe or nothing!

Anything which gets the league a possibility of more publicity is only a good thing!

awec

bennyl10 wrote: »

This^

For some reason Irish fans have this watered down version of the pro 12.. attendances back that up!

Pro 12 matches are usually, baring 1/2 Italian games, very competitive matches and damn good contests!!

People complain the pro 12 isn't good.. when a lot of Irish fans are Europe or nothing!

Anything which gets the league a possibility of more publicity is only a good thing!

That's probably because Irish fans hardly ever get to see their first choice team play in it.

bennyl10

awec wrote: »

That's probably because Irish fans hardly ever get to see their first choice team play in it.

The pro 12 squads, particularly for munster and Leinster,(for clarity, I am a munster ST holder) are the team that do a lot of the grunt work throughout the season, and while not being 100% first choice due to Ireland and Europe games, their still usually 75% Or higher of the first team.

Even for the semis, which are first team squads, they didn't sell out?

not following a league/attending a game because you might not know every single player is band wagon at its best.

Pro12 games are more often than not really really good contests!

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I think the argument here is if a B+I league is created this will not continue to happen regardless, at least nowhere near to the extent it does today.

I think the idea of a B&I league is pretty damn fanciful. The majority of the revenue would come from England so why would English clubs have any interest in sharing that?

awec wrote: »

That's probably because Irish fans hardly ever get to see their first choice team play in it.

So what? I honestly don't get this fascination with always wanting to see a full strength team. It's such an unrealistic expectation as well. Why can't the positive side of this not be mentioned? If we were playing our internationals all the time would guys like Furlong have come on as quickly? Or VDF? There's a whole heap of guys who get their opportunities due to this programme that is helping to develop depth in Irish rugby, the single biggest issue that the national team has.

People want depth, they want to see young lads play. But then when it suits they want to see full strength sides that serves to do the very opposite.

Also, do they really play that much more in other leagues? Launchbury played 18 times for Wasps last season. Toner played 17 times. Dan Cole played 19 times to Furlongs 16. They're hardly wildly different figures.

AbusesToilets

We also tend to overlook how much the Pro12 is weighted to benefit the IRFU, at the expense oftentimes of the other Unions. We receive a disproportionate amount of money from the CC for example, relative to the amount of TV monies generated by our market.

The WRU are dying by inches year after year, the current situation is likely not sustainable long term.

awec

bennyl10 wrote: »

The pro 12 squads, particularly for munster and Leinster,(for clarity, I am a munster ST holder) are the team that do a lot of the grunt work throughout the season, and while not being 100% first choice due to Ireland and Europe games, their still usually 75% Or higher of the first team.

Even for the semis, which are first team squads, they didn't sell out?

not following a league/attending a game because you might not know every single player is band wagon at its best.

Pro12 games are more often than not really really good contests!

I'm just saying you can't have your cake and eat it. You can't complain that Irish fans aren't 100% bought into the league when the IRFU treat it very much like a second class citizen when it comes to competitions.

It's nothing to do with bandwagoning

bennyl10

awec wrote: »

I'm just saying you can't have your cake and eat it. You can't complain that Irish fans aren't 100% bought into the league when the IRFU treat it very much like a second class citizen when it comes to competitions.

It's nothing to do with bandwagoning

But, looking at the post above, the premiership and some of its 'major' players is a similar deal?

Even if you accept people won't buy I to a league that isn't first choice 100%, (which is ludicrous) there's no excuse for something like a semi final..

padser

I must say, I don't get all the negativity here. This is the best Rugby related news I've heard all year
Can't wait for the new season and seeing the new teams.

Adding in the SA teams gives the pro12 the long term potential to be the strongest league by far in the NH.

The potential audience for the product just went through the roof, the financial potential for the league just went through the roof. The pool of players for the league just went through the roof.

And mostly what I hear from the people (a few posters aside) is fear of change along with short term "what about my little cabbage patch" thinking.

As I said, I can't wait for the next season.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I'm just saying you can't have your cake and eat it. You can't complain that Irish fans aren't 100% bought into the league when the IRFU treat it very much like a second class citizen when it comes to competitions.

It's nothing to do with bandwagoning

This is (a) to be expected as it is the lowest earner and smallest profile and (b) massively overstated at the same time.

People talk about the "shadow squad" thing but just how different are we to other leagues in that regard? And given our relative size and playing population isn't it incredibly important that we blood more players more often for the good of the overall game here?

CIARAN_BOYLE

awec wrote: »

I think the argument here is if a B+I league is created this will not continue to happen regardless, at least nowhere near to the extent it does today.

It depends. If the European cup was to go to the wall, a 12 team two division 22 game B&I league could work.

Add a second tier Irish cup competition with the four provinces outside of the B&I league with 6 games to keep the non internationals busy.

You could see a league that sees 12+ first players every given league match. You have to choose something.

Between the four provinces we have to support an international team. We can't have a quarter of our players playing first team internationals, having a first team in Europe and the pro 12. Something has to go.

In England it's much easier since its rare to have 4 players in an England squad. You will never have 10 in an England squad from the one club.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

I think the idea of a B&I league is pretty damn fanciful. The majority of the revenue would come from England so why would English clubs have any interest in sharing that?



So what? I honestly don't get this fascination with always wanting to see a full strength team. It's such an unrealistic expectation as well. Why can't the positive side of this not be mentioned? If we were playing our internationals all the time would guys like Furlong have come on as quickly? Or VDF? There's a whole heap of guys who get their opportunities due to this programme that is helping to develop depth in Irish rugby, the single biggest issue that the national team has.

People want depth, they want to see young lads play. But then when it suits they want to see full strength sides that serves to do the very opposite.

Also, do they really play that much more in other leagues? Launchbury played 18 times for Wasps last season. Toner played 17 times. Dan Cole played 19 times to Furlongs 16. They're hardly wildly different figures.

Actually I disagree. Most fans want to see their team play well, the obsession with seeing young lads and rotated squads exists among the more hardcore supporters but certainly doesn't extend out to the general rugby supporting public.

It is the same with the whole "we just exist to benefit the national team thing", most people don't really give a stuff.

They put up with these things so long as the provinces remain competitive but rest assured if they were not competing at the top of any hypothetical B+I league virtually nobody is going to be placated by the fact that we're playing young lads or that it's all great for Ireland.

I don't want to see a full strength team every week, but what we have now is a joke sometimes. The league really starts to shine toward the end of the season when teams stop with this resting stuff, but the rest of the season the games are dictated a lot by whatever side has decided to field the stronger team.

irishbucsfan

I want to see the young lads play. But I agree with awec that the vast majority of fans have no interest in it.

CMOTDibbler

awec wrote: »

I don't want to see a full strength team every week, but what we have now is a joke sometimes. The league really starts to shine toward the end of the season when teams stop with this resting stuff, but the rest of the season the games are dictated a lot by whatever side has decided to field the stronger team.

Isn't this the reality though? You can't field a full strength team every week. The Top 14 prioritise home games and send weakened teams away.

bilston

I don't think a B&I league should be fanciful. I thibmnk there are some really strong arguments for it. It could be absolutely huge. However it would damage the international game and it would require significant compromise from all potential stakeholders.

If the SA sides come to the Pro 12, and I don't just mean the Cheetahs and the Kings then we could have a really strong product. It is interesting that a third SA franchise wanted to jump ship as well. I think there is a real strong chance we will have all SA sides by 2020 and the knock on effect of that will be SA joining the 6Ns...interesting times...

I just hope we get the format right, that bit really concerns me.

AdamD

Bit harsh to suggest the Irish teams are not giving the league respect when they're at the top of the table every year. If the competition was stronger they'd need to field better teams

Squidgy Black

I'd say the pro12 have had these plans drawn out for a while, ever since the talk of American teams joining, so it won't be a botch job cause theyve more than likely done a lot of research into how it'd work out over the last couple of seasons.

Hastentoadd

See no value in two SA franchises (lower end franchises at that) joining the Pro12. It was interesting watching Pro12 teams competing against the might of the EPL and the Top14 this year and competing with them easily. Wonder if its time to setup a European Premier League rather than bolstering the Pro12 with a couple of substandard teams

bilston

Hastentoadd wrote: »

See no value in two SA franchises (lower end franchises at that) joining the Pro12. It was interesting watching Pro12 teams competing against the might of the EPL and the Top14 this year and competing with them easily. Wonder if its time to setup a European Premier League rather than bolstering the Pro12 with a couple of substandard teams

It may be, but there are a lot of very very high hurdles to be overcome for that to happen.

The South African involvement in the Pro 12 can work provided the format is right. These two sides may be sub standard Super Rugby sides but I think they will be challeneging for a top 3 finish in their respective pools...if that's the format...

Neil3030

I just really hope that in the event of a two group setup, they don't have this extra interpro idea. Imagine Brazil and Spain just randomly playing an extra game during a soccer World Cup to make a few extra quid.

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote:

I just really hope that in the event of a two group setup, they don't have this extra interpro idea. Imagine Brazil and Spain just randomly playing an extra game during a soccer World Cup to make a few extra quid.

but your example is completely off. Australia and New Zealand play extra bledisloe cup game beyond the Tri/4 nations. If we have 2 groups and provinces are in different groups it makes perfect sense to play extra interpros

AbusesToilets

Neil3030 wrote: »

I just really hope that in the event of a two group setup, they don't have this extra interpro idea. Imagine Brazil and Spain just randomly playing an extra game during a soccer World Cup to make a few extra quid.

I'd rather avoid expanded playoff than me damp squib games. Reeks of the endless bledisloe cup games