14 team Pro 12 from 2017/2018??

Neil3030

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

but your example is completely off. Australia and New Zealand play extra bledisloe cup game beyond the Tri/4 nations. If we have 2 groups and provinces are in different groups it makes perfect sense to play extra interpros

To use your analogy, the proposal would be akin to the third bledisloe game counting toward the Rugby Championship, while South Africa and Argentina have an extra game to balance out the number of fixtures.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Actually I disagree. Most fans want to see their team play well, the obsession with seeing young lads and rotated squads exists among the more hardcore supporters but certainly doesn't extend out to the general rugby supporting public.

It is the same with the whole "we just exist to benefit the national team thing", most people don't really give a stuff.

They put up with these things so long as the provinces remain competitive but rest assured if they were not competing at the top of any hypothetical B+I league virtually nobody is going to be placated by the fact that we're playing young lads or that it's all great for Ireland.

I don't want to see a full strength team every week, but what we have now is a joke sometimes. The league really starts to shine toward the end of the season when teams stop with this resting stuff, but the rest of the season the games are dictated a lot by whatever side has decided to field the stronger team.

I didn't make that point too well. What I was trying to say is that people want to see Ireland playing young guys. You yourself have repeatedly made that point about good enough = old enough. That doesn't just magically happen without game time at the provinces though. You can't demand Ireland play young lads on the one hand and demand the provinces don't on the other. The 2 points are quite clearly in opposition.

And again I'll state, the whole thing seems to me to be massively overstated, with Irish players not really playing all that much less than English players at the moment. So I can't see how it's "a joke" at times. There are a couple of games each year where it's an issue. The Christmas inter-pros being the really obvious example. But for the majority of the season it isn't an issue really.

But of course like a lot of things (NZ poaching Islanders) it has gained traction regardless.

thomond2006

The average Celtic team will always have to rotate more than the average English or French team. That's never going to change due to how international players are spread out in those countries. The solution to the Celtic problem is reducing the number of games.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

The solution to the Celtic problem is reducing the number of games.

If the problem is defined as 'how do you get the internationals to play as high a proportion of league games as possible' then sure.

But fewer games would be ****e. I really hope they don't do that. Not to mention the fact the internationals being unavailable gives gametime to younger players who would be severely limited otherwise. "It's too risky to play him, it's a big game" etc etc etc.

Burkie1203

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'd rather avoid expanded playoff than me damp squib games. Reeks of the endless bledisloe cup games

I was thinking

Two conferences
Play everyone in your conference home and away
Play everyone in the other conference once.

Top 3 from each conference play QF/SF/Final
2nd v 3rd QFs
QF winners v 1st place SF


Bottom 4 from each conference play for a shield like in 7s games with a final double header. This might be compromised by champions cup playoffs tho.

That would bump up game numbers and might keep bottom half of conferences interesting post 6n.

Adding random 3rd games is just going to imbalance the competition.

thomond2006

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

If the problem is defined as 'how do you get the internationals to play as high a proportion of league games as possible' then sure.

But fewer games would be ****e. I really hope they don't do that. Not to mention the fact the internationals being unavailable gives gametime to younger players who would be severely limited otherwise. "It's too risky to play him, it's a big game" etc etc etc.

I wouldn't reduce them by that much, maybe 4 max. IMO league games on the same weekends as internationals is a no no.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

I wouldn't reduce them by that much, maybe 4 max. IMO league games on the same weekends as internationals is a no no.

Totally disagree. I can't see any benefit to Irish rugby from fewer games. We'll see what happens anyway.

irishbucsfan

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

Totally disagree. I can't see any benefit to Irish rugby from fewer games. We'll see what happens anyway.

The benefit from fewer games comes only if it means teams are playing their 1st XV more often. It will increase the consistency of the league as a product and that will increase buy-in from more casual fans.

But of course fewer games does not guarantee this on its own. Its certainly possible that a decrease in games will just be taken from the beginning or end of the league and we'll still see collision with international windows.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

The average Celtic team will always have to rotate more than the average English or French team. That's never going to change due to how international players are spread out in those countries. The solution to the Celtic problem is reducing the number of games.

Not to mention the fact that you need the rotation to develop depth when you only have 4 teams in the country. You don't need the same level of rotation if you have 12 teams. It's what I find so interesting about the whole debate. Some of the same people crying out for us to bring in young talent into the national team want us to play that young talent less often provincially. Quite how anyone expects us to develop depth at provincial or national level without this rotation is beyond me.

And as it stands it looks to me like Irish internationals only really play a small handful of games less (2-3) than their English counterparts. So while there is more rotation there isn't so much that it has a massive affect on the end product.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The benefit from fewer games comes only if it means teams are playing their 1st XV more often. It will increase the consistency of the league as a product and that will increase buy-in from more casual fans.

But of course fewer games does not guarantee this on its own. Its certainly possible that a decrease in games will just be taken from the beginning or end of the league and we'll still see collision with international windows.

For me I can't see over a long-ish period of time how that outweighs the benefits of being able to develop a squad and unearth the next Ringrose or whoever without the pressure of having to go full strength or close to it in every game. I really really really hope this doesn't happen. Talented young players will fall by the wayside if it does I would be willing to bet.

thomond2006

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

Totally disagree. I can't see any benefit to Irish rugby from fewer games. We'll see what happens anyway.

I'm talking from a fans' perspective really. The season is IMO far too long.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm talking from a fans' perspective really. The season is IMO far too long.

I appreciate I'm probably not representative of the 'casual' fan but as a Leinster STH I certainly don't want fewer games to attend!

irishbucsfan

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

For me I can't see over a long-ish period of time how that outweighs the benefits of being able to develop a squad and unearth the next Ringrose or whoever without the pressure of having to go full strength or close to it in every game. I really really really hope this doesn't happen. Talented young players will fall by the wayside if it does I would be willing to bet.

I think you're making a bit of an assumption there that guys like Ringrose are unearthed because of weakened squads playing Pro 12 games. I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think, just like in Super XV, Irish provinces will still bring through guys despite less interruption.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think you're making a bit of an assumption there that guys like Ringrose are unearthed because of weakened squads playing Pro 12 games. I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think, just like in Super XV, Irish provinces will still bring through guys despite less interruption.

SA and NZ have domestic professional rugby which we don't.

irishbucsfan

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

SA and NZ have domestic professional rugby which we don't.

Yes, but I don't think playing weakened teams in Pro 12 games is an equivalent to that for us. I don't think it fulfils the same role and I don't think it would be missed as much as is being suggested. It's not something that would disappear either, it would just become less prevalent. I think most of this development is happening elsewhere (for example I don't think any of Leinster's top prospects have needed it at all).

thomond2006

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

I appreciate I'm probably not representative of the 'casual' fan but as a Leinster STH I certainly don't want fewer games to attend!

As a Leinster STH also I wouldn't mind cutting two home games say if it meant I'm seeing stronger lineups, both from Leinster and the opposition.

irishbucsfan

As a Leinster STH I want them to not cut any home games but also play the best team every week and also lower the price of pints.

But I don't think they'd reduce the number of games. I think they'll find a way to keep them at 22 even if it might suit everyone better in rugby terms if it dropped to 19.

The Lost Sheep

thomond2006 wrote:

I wouldn't reduce them by that much, maybe 4 max. IMO league games on the same weekends as internationals is a no no.

I don't see how you can't avoid international weekends at least once or twice with their being 34 weekends of provincial games(min) and 8 internationals

thomond2006

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't see how you can't avoid international weekends at least once or twice with their being 34 weekends of provincial games(min) and 8 internationals

Cut the number of provincial games. Where are you getting 34 from btw? Currently it's minimum 28.

Hastentoadd

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think you're making a bit of an assumption there that guys like Ringrose are unearthed because of weakened squads playing Pro 12 games. I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think, just like in Super XV, Irish provinces will still bring through guys despite less interruption.

I think Cullen has done an incredible job this year, bar one thing. He has developed and trusted the talent but when it came to the crunch, Clermont, he did a Poite :-), and decided to revert. I think it was only thing Cullen got wrong all season. He really provided the opportunity for the youngsters, but when the question was asked he did a Joe Schmidt on it

CMOTDibbler

Hastentoadd wrote: »

I think Cullen has done an incredible job this year, bar one thing. He has developed and trusted the talent but when it came to the crunch, Clermont, he did a Poite :-), and decided to revert. I think it was only thing Cullen got wrong all season. He really provided the opportunity for the youngsters, but when the question was asked he did a Joe Schmidt on it

Joe Schmidt and Romain Poite. Good company to be in.

stephen_n

Maybe they will use the interpros for seeding and have it as a separate internal competition. Leaving the league as a straight conference and play off system.

thomond2006

stephen_n wrote: »

Maybe they will use the interpros for seeding and have it as a separate internal competition. Leaving the league as a straight conference and play off system.

Bring back the interprovincial championship and the winning province gets €200k to go towards their academy. Sorted.

Hastentoadd

thomond2006 wrote: »

Bring back the interprovincial championship and the winning province gets €200k to go towards their academy. Sorted.

That's all fair and good if the teams start on an equal footing.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

Maybe they will use the interpros for seeding and have it as a separate internal competition. Leaving the league as a straight conference and play off system.

To be honest I am not sure interpros outside of the league would be that popular. They'd end up even worse than they are today.

The interpros should be the biggest league games of the season for irish teams. They should be promoted as such. Irish teams should be picking their very best sides each time they play each other.

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

To be honest I am not sure interpros outside of the league would be that popular. They'd end up even worse than they are today.

Gate revenue is important, the onus on group ranking and bragging rights could be played up too. It would give it more emphasis than just having extra home and away games against the provinces in the other conference.

AbusesToilets

awec wrote: »

To be honest I am not sure interpros outside of the league would be that popular. They'd end up even worse than they are today.

The interpros should be the biggest league games of the season for irish teams. They should be promoted as such. Irish teams should be picking their very best sides each time they play each other.

They tend to be a joke nowadays, which is a shame. The Christmas derbies should be tentpole games, yet they are after thoughts to the CC.

The Lost Sheep

thomond2006 wrote:

Cut the number of provincial games. Where are you getting 34 from btw? Currently it's minimum 28.

don't know. Added things wrong I think....

stephen_n wrote:

Maybe they will use the interpros for seeding and have it as a separate internal competition. Leaving the league as a straight conference and play off system.

is that going to be better though?

thomond2006 wrote:

Bring back the interprovincial championship and the winning province gets €200k to go towards their academy. Sorted.

would we see stronger sides played though in the games??

awec wrote:

The interpros should be the biggest league games of the season for irish teams. They should be promoted as such. Irish teams should be picking their very best sides each time they play each other.

can't do that unless you move some of the interpros away from Christmas/new years and that won't happen.

AbusesToilets wrote:

They tend to be a joke nowadays, which is a shame. The Christmas derbies should be tentpole games, yet they are after thoughts to the CC.

in between 4 rounds of European games and 6 nations a month away they will sort of be afterthoughts but do you change the Christmas/new years games and only have 1 derby in that time to ensure full sides play more of the interpros??

AbusesToilets

Don't know tbh. Perhaps change the nature of the Leagues as it relates to the CC, get rid of the groups and have it take place after the conclusion of the league. Top teams in the league go into a knockout phase tournament?

Neil3030

How about we just take the format most people seem content with, ie:
- 2 groups of 7
- H and A v teams in your group.
- H or A v teams in the other, rotating annually a la 6N.

The interpro fixtures from each year's Pro14 also contribute towards a parallel interpro championship mini league. Remaining fixtures can then be held at various points in the year, e.g. Christmas, week after the grand final, etc. Results in these latter games would count toward the mini league but not the Pro14.

LeinsterDub

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/van-rooyen-sa-teams-would-prefer-pro12/

Kings scrum-half Rudi Van Rooyen says South African players would relish the opportunity of playing in the PRO12.

SA Rugby confirmed last week that the Kings and Cheetahs would be axed from Super Rugby with talk that the two sides are poised to join the PRO12.

And Van Rooyen says South African rugby players are excited by the prospect of competing in the PRO12.

"A lot of the players at South African teams would prefer playing in the Pro12," van Rooyen told BBC Scotland.

Neil3030

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/van-rooyen-sa-teams-would-prefer-pro12/

But was it made clear to him that they'd be playing for teams based in South Africa, and paid in Rand?

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

But was it made clear to him that they'd be playing for teams based in South Africa, and paid in Rand?

I also don't get where this supposed extra money is coming from.

Is it the likes of Guinness willing to pay a lot more to get big exposure in the African market?

Shougeki

Neil3030 wrote: »

But was it made clear to him that they'd be playing for teams based in South Africa, and paid in Rand?

His thinking is it will be easier to move to a European side, where they will get paid in £ or €.

Interesting he names Munster twice, when we haven't won a thing in ages :P

Podge_irl

Is that article real? It reads like satire.

Neil3030

Shougeki wrote: »

His thinking is it will be easier to move to a European side, where they will get paid in £ or €.

Interesting he names Munster twice, when we haven't won a thing in ages :P

He should also really tune up on his geography a bit, he doesn't even know what country Munster and Ulster are in!

I think playing in Europe, playing against Munster or Ulster, the big teams from Ireland or Scotland or Wales can certainly put your foot in the door a bit.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

He should also really tune up on his geography a bit, he doesn't even know what country Munster and Ulster are in!

Ah no he said Munster or Ulster, the big teams from Ireland, or elsehwere he's spot on

pickarooney

thomond2006 wrote: »

Bring back the interprovincial championship and the winning province gets €200k to go towards their academy. Sorted.

Winner gets to draft a player from the loser.

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Neil3030 wrote: »

He should also really tune up on his geography a bit, he doesn't even know what country Munster and Ulster are in!

Ah no he said Munster or Ulster, the big teams from Ireland, or elsehwere he's spot on

Awww no some Leinster fans are going to get their knickers in a twist

stephen_n

Clearly he means the big teams for importing saffers, not for winning things.

Squidgy Black

I think he meant Munster, Ulster, and then the big teams in Ireland (Leinster+Connacht)

Tigerandahalf

There is an article on bbc scotland that speculates on a few details like sponsors like Guinness being keen to get exposure in S Africa and possibly the US in future.

Each existing pro12 team would be getting an extra €500,000 - 1million. I presume the tv companies in S Africa would be interested plus Sky I guess.

Apparently Philip Browne and the other unions realise they need to expand or lose players to richer markets and the pro12 will be dead.
Also as part of the deal some Springboks would transfer to these 2 teams.

All speculation of course.

I wonder would the Boks be based somewhere in UK for 2/3 months at a time.

http://m.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/40464201

Erik Shin

pickarooney wrote: »

Winner gets to draft a player from the loser.

I can't think of any Leinster players we'd want down here

Neil3030

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Each existing pro12 team would be getting an extra €500,000 - 1million.

Each team gets €500k - €1m, but the Italians have to pay an extra €6m to have the funds released to them.

Erik Shin

Erik Shin wrote: »

I can't think of any Leinster players we'd want down here

You could draft Heaslip and never play him just to piss off Leinster fans.

molloyjh

There's an announcement coming up in and around the weekend apparently.

https://www.ofm.co.za/article/rugby/246970/official-pro14-announcement-expected-close-to-15-july?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

EDIT: It's actually a funny article. The Free State President has basically announced it while saying he can't announce it because the Pro12 want to release it themselves.

golfer555

molloyjh wrote: »

There's an announcement coming up in and around the weekend apparently.

https://www.ofm.co.za/article/rugby/246970/official-pro14-announcement-expected-close-to-15-july?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

EDIT: It's actually a funny article. The Free State President has basically announced it while saying he can't announce it because the Pro12 want to release it themselves.

What the Pro12 final to be played in the Arms Park? That's a major step down from the aviva or just a typo....

Podge_irl

golfer555 wrote: »

What the Pro12 final to be played in the Arms Park? That's a major step down from the aviva or just a typo....

Yeah, that stuck out to me as well. I have great difficulty believing that is correct - as far as I'm aware the final venue hasn't even been selected yet. No way its going from Murrayfield and Aviva to CAP.

I'm sure they're just referring to the Principality/Millennium/whatever they call it now.

molloyjh

golfer555 wrote: »

What the Pro12 final to be played in the Arms Park? That's a major step down from the aviva or just a typo....

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yeah, that stuck out to me as well. I have great difficulty believing that is correct - as far as I'm aware the final venue hasn't even been selected yet. No way its going from Murrayfield and Aviva to CAP.

Yeah that has to be an error.There was 44.5k at last seasons final and 33.5k in Murrayfield. They aren't going to a 12k seater after that.