14 team Pro 12 from 2017/2018??

Could a deal be struck to host an inter provincial judgement day in Croke Park once a year? Would a well marketed reasonably priced day out be workable and attended by supporters?

Quin_Dub

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The NFL divisions are theoretically based on geography and the conferences are based on historical ownership groups and seperate leagues combining.

There's no reason they can't change seedings annualy in the Pro 14 but I'd question how they can really seed the teams accurately every year.

Fairly simple I'd have thought - Take the final standings and then all odd numbered teams go to Conf 1 and the evens go to Conf 2.

awec

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

Yeah, that would be fairly damaging actually, people would lose interest.

Even looking at the proposed ones:

Conference A - Munster, Scarlets, Ulster, Blues, Edinburgh, Zebre, Cheetahs
Conference B - Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Connacht, Treviso, Dragons, Kings

Pool A looks much easier than Pool B. Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow and Connacht, 4 of the last 5 winners of the competition. Hard to pick which one misses out on top 3.

Conversely, the Blues, Edinburgh and Zebre are all fairly gash and the top 3 in that conference should be pretty much straight forward.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Could a deal be struck to host an inter provincial judgement day in Croke Park once a year? Would a well marketed reasonably priced day out be workable and attended by supporters?

I guess not because the GAA would ask for too much money and the provinces would probably be reluctant to give up home gates.

Quin_Dub

Deleted User wrote: »

Could a deal be struck to host an inter provincial judgement day in Croke Park once a year? Would a well marketed reasonably priced day out be workable and attended by supporters?

Why would they play it in Croke Park?

Any increased ticket revenue from the larger stadium would be lost in payments to the GAA.

I like the idea of the double-header , but if it happens it'll be in Lansdowne rd.

LeinsterDub

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Fairly simple I'd have thought - Take the final standings and then all odd numbered teams go to Conf 1 and the evens go to Conf 2.

Regardless of nation?

irishbucsfan

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Fairly simple I'd have thought - Take the final standings and then all odd numbered teams go to Conf 1 and the evens go to Conf 2.

But they're in seperate conferences?

Quin_Dub

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Regardless of nation?

I think so - Everybody plays everybody at least once so that shouldn't be an issue.

The only wrinkle is if both SA teams ended up in the same Conference which would means lots of travel for one Conf and (relatively) very little for the other.

molloyjh

Taking the proposed conferences combined with earlier rumours what might make sense would be:

Conference A - Munster, Scarlets, Ulster, Blues, Edinburgh, Zebre, Cheetahs
Conference B - Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Connacht, Treviso, Dragons, Kings

12 inter-conference games + 4 other inter-pro/region games (no idea how that works for Scot, Italian or SA sides) + 5 other cross-conference games = 21 games. Down 1 from the existing set up.

Top 3 from each conference get through to the play-offs. 3 rounds of play-offs make up for the lost week. European seeding based on how the top 6 fall in the play-offs. The last place comes from a home and away play off between the 4th ranked sides in each conference.

Each year is seeded based on the derbies.

Conference A: Irish 1, Welsh 2, Welsh 3, Irish 4, Scot 2, Italian 1, SA 2
Conference B: Welsh 1, Irish 2, Irish 3, Welsh 4, Scot 1, Italian 2, SA 1

awec

Just a straight split on odd/even would put both Italian teams in the same conference which would hardly be fair. Nation has to be taken into account.

Rigor Mortis

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, using 5 years to determine seedings does not reflect the quality of sides. In no way would I support that.

Last year's seedings are fine for me.

It'd be much easier if you just agreed

Quin_Dub

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But they're in seperate conferences?

You'd still have an overall league table based on points accrued , regardless of which conference they were in.

Look it's not perfect and there'll always be an argument to be made by a team saying "we had to play the champions and runners up twice but the other team only played them once" or whatever, but if we're having Conferences then that's always going to happen.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Taking the proposed conferences combined with earlier rumours what might make sense would be:

Conference A - Munster, Scarlets, Ulster, Blues, Edinburgh, Zebre, Cheetahs
Conference B - Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Connacht, Treviso, Dragons, Kings

12 inter-conference games + 4 other inter-pro/region games (no idea how that works for Scot, Italian or SA sides) + 5 other cross-conference games = 21 games. Down 1 from the existing set up.

Top 3 from each conference get through to the play-offs. 3 rounds of play-offs make up for the lost week. European seeding based on how the top 6 fall in the play-offs. The last place comes from a home and away play off between the 4th ranked sides in each conference.

Each year is seeded based on the derbies.

Conference A: Irish 1, Welsh 2, Welsh 3, Irish 4, Scot 2, Italian 1, SA 2
Conference B: Welsh 1, Irish 2, Irish 3, Welsh 4, Scot 1, Italian 2, SA 1

It won't be 12 + 4 + 5. It'll be a straight 12 + 7. According to the rumours from Wales anyway.

bennyl10

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It won't be 12 + 4 + 5. It'll be a straight 12 + 7. According to the rumours from Wales anyway.

I can't see the irfu or wru accepting without a provision the derbies though..
They're a giant money maker for both..

Tigerandahalf

From what I read previously it would be 2 conferences of 7 teams each.

The teams of Scotland, Italy and S Africa would always be in opposite conferences based on seeding from previous year.

Irish and Welsh teams would play their fellow country teams from the opposite conference twice making an extra 2 league games.

The previous 3 above would play their country team from the opposite conference 3 times.

This would mean each side would play 21 games.

If they wanted they could have first 2 in league go straight into semis. 2nd and 3rd would play against other 2nd and 3rd in quarters.

That would keep calendar as before.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It won't be 12 + 4 + 5. It'll be a straight 12 + 7. According to the rumours from Wales anyway.

Yeah, I'm really just combining a few rumours (including the one about 3 rounds of inter-pros) into something that might make a bit of sense. I don't expect that's what will actually happen. Because at this stage I haven't a clue what might actually happen.

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

Could a deal be struck to host an inter provincial judgement day in Croke Park once a year? Would a well marketed reasonably priced day out be workable and attended by supporters?

Only if you move Croke Pk out of Dublin.

You get enough big rugby matches as it is.

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

Taking the proposed conferences combined with earlier rumours what might make sense would be:

Conference A - Munster, Scarlets, Ulster, Blues, Edinburgh, Zebre, Cheetahs
Conference B - Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Connacht, Treviso, Dragons, Kings

12 inter-conference games + 4 other inter-pro/region games (no idea how that works for Scot, Italian or SA sides) + 5 other cross-conference games = 21 games. Down 1 from the existing set up.

Top 3 from each conference get through to the play-offs. 3 rounds of play-offs make up for the lost week. European seeding based on how the top 6 fall in the play-offs. The last place comes from a home and away play off between the 4th ranked sides in each conference.

Each year is seeded based on the derbies.

Conference A: Irish 1, Welsh 2, Welsh 3, Irish 4, Scot 2, Italian 1, SA 2
Conference B: Welsh 1, Irish 2, Irish 3, Welsh 4, Scot 1, Italian 2, SA 1

It won't be 12 + 4 + 5. It'll be a straight 12 + 7. According to the rumours from Wales anyway.

12+7 with a handful of Inter Pros thrown in but separate from the league.

It will probably be for one season only if two North American sides join next season.

Riskymove

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It won't be 12 + 4 + 5. It'll be a straight 12 + 7. According to the rumours from Wales anyway.

12+7+2 is the latest idea

12 - round robin against 6 other teams in your conference

7- play each team in other conference once

2 - play each team in your country in the other conference a second time

I guess Scot and Italy teams could play each other twice

but who the SA teams would play for the additional 2 I don't know

irishbucsfan

Riskymove wrote: »

12+7+2 is the latest idea

12 - round robin against 6 other teams in your conference

7- play each team in other conference once

2 - play each team in your country in the other conference a second time

I guess Scot and Italy teams could play each other twice

but who the SA teams would play for the additional 2 I don't know

No, according to Wales Online this morning those extra derbies aren't happening.

jaansu

Who decides where the inter-conference matches will be played?

LeinsterDub

jaansu wrote: »

Who decides where the inter-conference matches will be played?

Alternated every year.

Tigerandahalf

Reading online that Houston is no longer the main runner in the US but a Washington DC team sharing a new stadium with the soccer team DC United. That bid is backed by a former Eagles player Sheehy.

Possible that just 1 US team will come in in 2018 with an Italian team dropping out.

A lot of uncertainty around the expansion at the moment.

I see also that the Welsh regions can't afford to bring home Leigh Halfpenny unless the WRU backed Dragons appeal to him. But Kirchner is already gone there. He seems to be in limbo hoping an English club come in for him.

salmocab

Whilst Im happy enough to have the SA teams in and to give the conference thing a go I think Id be waiting at least a year to decide if its a decent setup, Id be pissed off to be missing one of our Munster matches but unless it counts towards the league the suggestion of an extra interpro is a pile of crap. Think it might work if they play the cross conference inter pros on the same day and venue like judgement day in Wales. Although as realistically that would mean using the Aviva that may be a bit unfair.

LeinsterDub

salmocab wrote: »

that would mean using the Aviva that may be a bit unfair.

Aviva is too small .

I don't see the point of US teams. Yeah expand the game etc etc but the teams are going to be rubbish and add very little to the league. Treviso and Zebre have barely improved in how many years now? At least the SA sides can be competitive.

salmocab

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Aviva is too small .

depends on the games if its say leinster/connacht and munster/ulster it would probably be okay.

irishbucsfan

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

I don't see the point of US teams. Yeah expand the game etc etc but the teams are going to be rubbish and add very little to the league. Treviso and Zebre have barely improved in how many years now? At least the SA sides can be competitive.

Money

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Money

If they're going to bring in money then grand but where is it going to come from? The public in the US don't give a toss about rugby.

LeinsterDub

salmocab wrote: »

depends on the games if its say leinster/connacht and munster/ulster it would probably be okay.

Only 13k for each province . Leinster have 12.5k season ticket holders I believe.

salmocab

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Only 13k for each province . Leinster have 12.5k season ticket holders I believe.

Connacht wouldnt need 13K and Ulster probably wouldnt either for a game in Dublin, it depends on ST and whose home game it is etc but Im sure it would be fine.

LeinsterDub

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

If they're going to bring in money then grand but where is it going to come from? The public in the US don't give a toss about rugby.

Guinness are meant to be very interested in the us market.

LeinsterDub

salmocab wrote: »

Connacht wouldnt need 13K and Ulster probably wouldnt either for a game in Dublin, it depends on ST and whose home game it is etc but Im sure it would be fine.

I have to say this is just naive. Leinster bring their standard 20K , the rest bring 8-10k and it's sold out.

LeinsterDub

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Guinness are meant to be very interested in the us market.

This is the other thing that concerns me, what happens if Guinness pull a Rabo and decide their 'commercial objectives have been satisfied' or some other mumbo-jumbo. Their sponsorship isn't going to go on forever, and they seem to be a significant element of the drive behind this.

LeinsterDub

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

This is the other thing that concerns me, what happens if Guinness pull a Rabo and decide their 'commercial objectives have been satisfied' or some other mumbo-jumbo. Their sponsorship isn't going to go on forever, and they seem to be a significant element of the drive behind this.

Then you've a much bigger offering to new sponsors.

Former Former

An interpro double header doesn't seem to have any upside.

Tigerandahalf

Not sure if the US thing would work even if they put out the Eagles team. Washington wouldn't have too many expats either.

There are talks that Australia and NZ could go it alone long term and the S Africans could move on block into Europe. But surely the tv money would be very small for them on their own.

There is also the issue of whether the 2 S African sides would continue to play in the Currie Cup and how that season would run alongside the Pro12. It runs from June to Oct. The Cheetahs are the current holders.

Tigerandahalf

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Not sure if the US thing would work even if they put out the Eagles team. Washington wouldn't have too many expats either.

There are talks that Australia and NZ could go it alone long term and the S Africans could move on block into Europe. But surely the tv money would be very small for them on their own.

There is also the issue of whether the 2 S African sides would continue to play in the Currie Cup and how that season would run alongside the Pro12. It runs from June to Oct. The Cheetahs are the current holders.

Admittedly I haven't looked at this in depth but there must be some concern over the future of the game in Australia at this point. Crowds seem to be dwindling, their players seem to leave in droves, teams are all really poor in Super Rugby and the national team is on the slide too.

Am I going too far? Could just be cyclical? You look at how good they were in the late 90's early 00's and they've fallen off a cliff compared to that.

LeinsterDub

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

Admittedly I haven't looked at this in depth but there must be some concern over the future of the game in Australia at this point. Crowds seem to be dwindling, their players seem to leave in droves, teams are all really poor in Super Rugby and the national team is on the slide too.

Am I going too far? Could just be cyclical? You look at how good they were in the late 90's early 00's and they've fallen off a cliff compared to that.

There teams where white washed by NZ this year. Played 25 . Lost 25! :eek:

Tigerandahalf

Rugby Union in Australia is pretty reliant on the private feeder schools. It doesn't really have a huge hard core support. If the team is doing poorly the Aussies don't want anything to do with them.

Rugby league and afl dominate among the 'normal' person. They always then tended to poach quality league players. Super Rugby is competing with 2 other dominant sports. NZ and S Africa don't really have that problem.

The South African games being on at non peak times don't overly favour the tv audience in NZ and Australia either.

thebaz

Armani Shy Bun wrote: »

I don't see the point of US teams. Yeah expand the game etc etc but the teams are going to be rubbish and add very little to the league. Treviso and Zebre have barely improved in how many years now? At least the SA sides can be competitive.

I think US is untapped market - loads of ex American football college players who can adapt quickly - having played there, they love rugby - just needs proper marketing & better coaching, TBH I'm surprised American rugby has not taken of faster - I don't think the same thing will happen as with Italian teams - Personally I'd welcome 2 American teams to tournament.

padser

bilston wrote: »

Only if you move Croke Pk out of Dublin.

You get enough big rugby matches as it is.

Granted, Croke Park doesn't make sense - so let's assume Landsdowne Rd.



Now, if you would like to move it out of Dublin - that's absolutely fine, but can you please suggest a place where

1) Over 40% of the population in the country live
2) We can guarantee to sell a 40k seater statium
3) Said 40k seater is owned by the IRFU, so no rent to pay

Because if you can, then I completely agree we should move it out of Dublin.

I never get the constant cribbing about stuff being on in Dublin. It is, by a distance, the most logical place to host big events.......

connemara man

padser wrote: »

Granted, Croke Park doesn't make sense - so let's assume Landsdowne Rd.



Now, if you would like to move it out of Dublin - that's absolutely fine, but can you please suggest a place where

1) Over 40% of the population in the country live
2) We can guarantee to sell a 40k seater statium
3) Said 40k seater is owned by the IRFU, so no rent to pay

Because if you can, then I completely agree we should move it out of Dublin.

I never get the constant cribbing about stuff being on in Dublin. It is, by a distance, the most logical place to host big events.......

A lot of rugby fans from outside Leinster are rightfully annoyed with the amount of international rugby being played there.
The 6 nations, underage, womens all in Dublin even the group stages of the women's world cup are in Dublin. So the idea of losing a home game to the RDS doesn't sound appealing to me

Neil3030

As a resident of the island of Anglesea, I am outraged at the lack of international rugby played in Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. It's down right shameful.

jacothelad

Neil3030 wrote: »

As a resident of the island of Anglesea, I am outraged at the lack of international rugby played in Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. It's down right shameful.

I used to live in Anglesea in Benllech. It's a lovely place. Played at Llangefni.

BBDBB

Neil3030 wrote: »

As a resident of the island of Anglesea, I am outraged at the lack of international rugby played in Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. It's down right shameful.

The scoreboard looks ridiculous


Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch 3
Rhyl 0

martingriff

padser wrote: »

Granted, Croke Park doesn't make sense - so let's assume Landsdowne Rd.



Now, if you would like to move it out of Dublin - that's absolutely fine, but can you please suggest a place where

1) Over 40% of the population in the country live
2) We can guarantee to sell a 40k seater statium
3) Said 40k seater is owned by the IRFU, so no rent to pay

Because if you can, then I completely agree we should move it out of Dublin.

I never get the constant cribbing about stuff being on in Dublin. It is, by a distance, the most logical place to host big events.......

Why not outside Dublin where you could get a greenfield and build a great stadium. You can then have plenty of parking and 2 motorways to get to it. I know the poor auld Dublin people will have to travel but you will survive. Why does it have to be in Dublin.

LeinsterDub

martingriff wrote: »

Why not outside Dublin where you could get a greenfield and build a great stadium.

Greenfield stadiums with no infrastructure (read pubs and public transport) are feckin zero craic

Blut2

Greenfield stadiums are horrendous. Even stadiums out in the suburbs (like Twickenham) aren't much craic. You want to be as close to the center of the city as possible, like the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff. The Aviva isn't great for this but isn't too bad either, its at least moderately close to the center, has good public transport links, and has some pubs around it.

Neil3030

jacothelad wrote: »

I used to live in Anglesea in Benllech. It's a lovely place. Played at Llangefni.

So that's Bologna and Anglesea we've both lived in? This is starting to get weird, Jaco! :pac: