SF and Westminster

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You are hitting the nail on the head.

The only thing that could work is a watered down version of our Act that also catered for other minority languages.

However, expect to be told you are disrespecting the nationalist culture by questioning the value of an Irish Language Act.

'Watered down' is just kicking a difficult can down the road. The people have waited long enough for normality and genuine parity of esteem in how they are governed.

For Reals

Isn't the impasse also related to Unionists seeking similar recognition for Ulster Scots? Ulster Scots is akin to the Ebonics in the U.S., IMO, to use it in comparison to a native language is a bit of a stretch.

FrancieBrady

For Reals wrote: »

Isn't the impasse also related to Unionists seeking similar recognition for Ulster Scots? Ulster Scots is akin to the Ebonics in the U.S., IMO, to use it in comparison to a native language is a bit of a stretch.

IMO it is akin to saying English and Cockney are on a par in importance.
And I speak as someone who would hate to see Cockney die out.

Unionists have boxed themselves into the ridiculous corner on this one.

FrancieBrady

What hope have we in understanding what is actually going on here when Tommy Gorman jumps through hoops to avoid saying that the only reason the talks have ended today is to allow unionists to go off and celebrate their cultural identity. Everything comes to a standstill for that.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Parity', concentrate on what that word means and you won't need anyone else to define it.

For instance, (and here is more of the DUP delusion that you and others buy into) Arlene says that seeking parity of esteem is one side 'seeking cultural supremacy over another' in the week before the 12th celebrations begin.
Could she be anymore bogus or ironic do you think?

It is ironic coming from Arlene's mouth but it is also ironic coming from SF.

I half agree with her but both sides are now seeking cultural supremacy over the other. Those entrenched on either side fail to see this. When some of us down here point it out, we are derided as partitionists by one side or ignored as irrelevant Irish by the other.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

It is ironic coming from Arlene's mouth but it is also ironic coming from SF.

I half agree with her but both sides are now seeking cultural supremacy over the other. Those entrenched on either side fail to see this. When some of us down here point it out, we are derided as partitionists by one side or ignored as irrelevant Irish by the other.

Do you understand the meaning of 'parity'?

Can you explain how anybody could use this to be 'culturally supreme'?

Are you afraid that SF or nationalists might achieve something for themselves, is that it? Because you are making no sense whatsoever and have shown nothing to indicate that 'both sides are as bad'. They are clearly not and you will see that in the next few weeks.

For Reals

There's also the DUP's opposition to lifting the region's ban on same-sex marriage. Hardly a Catholic Ireland cultural hang up.

FrancieBrady

For Reals wrote: »

There's also the DUP's opposition to lifting the region's ban on same-sex marriage. Hardly a Catholic Ireland cultural hang up.

Yes, apparently the rights the DUP block on a religious basis are a 'disgrace' but the rights they block on a cultural basis are ok.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

there is a very long way to go in terms of unifying the North

Unifying the north? As what? some sort of hybrid between Irish people and people whose culture is largely based on unbridled hibernophobia?

The DUP have no intention of trying to 'unify the north', they're too busy trying to retain remnants of the orange state while suppressing cultural, civic and political equality.

Red_Wake

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

there is a very long way to go in terms of unifying the North

Unifying the north? As what? some sort of hybrid between Irish people and people whose culture is largely based on unbridled hibernophobia?

The DUP have no intention of trying to 'unify the north', they're too busy trying to retain remnants of the orange state while suppressing cultural, civic and political equality.

By categorising unionists as a seperate group to "Irish" are you implicitly validatng their belief that they're not Irish?

A position quite counter productive to unifying Northern Ireland, if I may say so.

astrofool

The Unionists have lost the mind space, they are now veering wildly away from their motherland (Britain) in such a way that they won't be able to call themselves unionists anymore, there is opportunity there for SF to just let them fall on this sword while getting on with the business of running the country.

SF however are just doing the same thing in chasing after items that mean little to running the country, the Irish Language, while great, does not garner much votes down South, why are they making it an issue up North where they know it will be a lightning rod for the unionists to get behind, they're doing it for petty politics and one-upmanship, which will ultimately see them in the same position as the unionists, clinging to memories of a twee De Valera Ireland that no longer exists.

FrancieBrady

astrofool wrote: »

The Unionists have lost the mind space, they are now veering wildly away from their motherland (Britain) in such a way that they won't be able to call themselves unionists anymore, there is opportunity there for SF to just let them fall on this sword while getting on with the business of running the country.

SF however are just doing the same thing in chasing after items that mean little to running the country, the Irish Language, while great, does not garner much votes down South, why are they making it an issue up North where they know it will be a lightning rod for the unionists to get behind, they're doing it for petty politics and one-upmanship, which will ultimately see them in the same position as the unionists, clinging to memories of a twee De Valera Ireland that no longer exists.

It is quite simple to me, and I don't know what SF's thinking is on this.
IMO the majority of nationalists (as evidenced by their recent voting patterns)see this as a crossroads regarding rights and full parity of esteem that the GFA should have (if the two governments were properly adhering to it) delivered a long time ago.
Just happens to be the Irish language issue, but next will come all the rights based issues outstanding and which will bring northern Ireland into line with everywhere else on these islands - normality, in other words.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is quite simple to me, and I don't know what SF's thinking is on this.
IMO the majority of nationalists (as evidenced by their recent voting patterns)see this as a crossroads regarding rights and full parity of esteem that the GFA should have (if the two governments were properly adhering to it) delivered a long time ago.
Just happens to be the Irish language issue, but next will come all the rights based issues outstanding and which will bring northern Ireland into line with everywhere else on these islands - normality, in other words.

I don't think the majority of nationalists have the same attachment to the issues that you proclaim. It is a bit like the nationalists down South who theoretically want a united Ireland but don't want to pay a tax for it. How do you think it would go down if there was a Northern Ireland-only tax to pay for an Irish Languages Act?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think the majority of nationalists have the same attachment to the issues that you proclaim. It is a bit like the nationalists down South who theoretically want a united Ireland but don't want to pay a tax for it. How do you think it would go down if there was a Northern Ireland-only tax to pay for an Irish Languages Act?

We don't know what nationalists down south want regarding a UI, because they have not firstly had the opportunity to hear a proper debate on it and have not been asked in a referendum.
The people of northern Ireland pay their taxes just like every other region and have the expectation that their rights should be available, just like they are in every other region.

We can say that the majority of nationalists in northern Ireland support the policies of SF though as two recent elections have shown.
One of those policies is to ensure that the GFA delivers parity of esteem, which benefits everyone from unionists, to nationalists and which should deliver the same rights as everyone else in the UK and Ireland.
I wonder if it was SF that was denying LGBT rights, and language rights to a minority community what the reaction would be here. I can guess.

For Reals

astrofool wrote: »

The Unionists have lost the mind space, they are now veering wildly away from their motherland (Britain) in such a way that they won't be able to call themselves unionists anymore, there is opportunity there for SF to just let them fall on this sword while getting on with the business of running the country.

SF however are just doing the same thing in chasing after items that mean little to running the country, the Irish Language, while great, does not garner much votes down South, why are they making it an issue up North where they know it will be a lightning rod for the unionists to get behind, they're doing it for petty politics and one-upmanship, which will ultimately see them in the same position as the unionists, clinging to memories of a twee De Valera Ireland that no longer exists.

So what of the DUP's requests regarding Ulster Scots? Indeed, if you want to go the route of clinging to memories that no longer exist, the 12th is just around the corner; you'll see Irish natives, wearing orange to show a cultural link to a long dead Dutch King while waving the flag of the British. Commemorating a battle in 1690 because the English King at the time lost. A little more about clinging to memories than a native people wishing to retain language rights and open the doors for equal status for gay couples.

Junkyard Tom

Red_Wake wrote: »

By categorising unionists as a seperate group to "Irish" are you implicitly validatng their belief that they're not Irish?

I was being explicit about it. Who am I to tell the 40% of people in the north who describe themselves as 'British only' that they're Irish?

blanch152

For Reals wrote: »

So what of the DUP's requests regarding Ulster Scots? Indeed, if you want to go the route of clinging to memories that no longer exist, the 12th is just around the corner; you'll see Irish natives, wearing orange to show a cultural link to a long dead Dutch King while waving the flag of the British. Commemorating a battle in 1690 because the English King at the time lost. A little more about clinging to memories than a native people wishing to retain language rights and open the doors for equal status for gay couples.

A native people wishing to retain language rights?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"he last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century. Irish as spoken in Counties Down[8] and Fermanagh were the first to die out, but native speakers of varieties spoken in the Glens of Antrim[9] and the Sperrin Mountains of County Tyrone[10] and County Londonderry survived into the 1950s and 1970s respectively, whilst the Armagh dialect survived until the 1930s or '40s.[11] Varieties of Irish indigenous to the territory of Northern Ireland finally became extinct as spoken languages when the last native speaker of Rathlin Irish died in 1985.[12] Séamus Bhriain Mac Amhlaigh, who died in 1983, was reportedly the last native-speaker of Antrim Irish."

There are no native varieties of Irish left in Northern Ireland. Most speak the Donegal dialect.

The Golden Miller

blanch152 wrote: »

A native people wishing to retain language rights?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"he last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century. Irish as spoken in Counties Down[8] and Fermanagh were the first to die out, but native speakers of varieties spoken in the Glens of Antrim[9] and the Sperrin Mountains of County Tyrone[10] and County Londonderry survived into the 1950s and 1970s respectively, whilst the Armagh dialect survived until the 1930s or '40s.[11] Varieties of Irish indigenous to the territory of Northern Ireland finally became extinct as spoken languages when the last native speaker of Rathlin Irish died in 1985.[12] Séamus Bhriain Mac Amhlaigh, who died in 1983, was reportedly the last native-speaker of Antrim Irish."

There are no native varieties of Irish left in Northern Ireland. Most speak the Donegal dialect.

Irish is their native language, regardless of what it sounds like. What's your obsession with dialects when discussing languages? You still haven't realised that they are different?

FrancieBrady

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Irish is their native language, regardless of what it sounds like. What's your obsession with dialects when discussing languages? You still haven't realised that they are different?

I think that could be the problem here tbh. A revealing post there from Blanch.

For Reals

blanch152 wrote: »

A native people wishing to retain language rights?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"he last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century. Irish as spoken in Counties Down[8] and Fermanagh were the first to die out, but native speakers of varieties spoken in the Glens of Antrim[9] and the Sperrin Mountains of County Tyrone[10] and County Londonderry survived into the 1950s and 1970s respectively, whilst the Armagh dialect survived until the 1930s or '40s.[11] Varieties of Irish indigenous to the territory of Northern Ireland finally became extinct as spoken languages when the last native speaker of Rathlin Irish died in 1985.[12] Séamus Bhriain Mac Amhlaigh, who died in 1983, was reportedly the last native-speaker of Antrim Irish."

There are no native varieties of Irish left in Northern Ireland. Most speak the Donegal dialect.

Simply put Irish is both a people and a language. The two are part of Irish culture.
Not sure where you are going with the dialect. Ye olde English is still part of English culture and heritage. Should we bin Shakespeare? I mean nobody speaks like that and it died out. Hey nonny nonny and for sooth and that.

Thankfully we are still aways from the only difference between cultures being a label.

The Ulster Scots argument is akin to wanting street signs in London also in Cockney rhyming slang IMO. Neither here nor there I suppose, but to boil down the current impasse to merely some irrelevance, insures continued cultural ignorance and ignores the other issues such as opening the door to equal rights for gays.

blanch152

For Reals wrote: »

Simply put Irish is both a people and a language. The two are part of Irish culture.
Not sure where you are going with the dialect. Ye olde English is still part of English culture and heritage. Should we bin Shakespeare? I mean nobody speaks like that and it died out. Hey nonny nonny and for sooth and that.

Thankfully we are still aways from the only difference between cultures being a label.

The Ulster Scots argument is akin to wanting street signs in London also in Cockney rhyming slang IMO. Neither here nor there I suppose, but to boil down the current impasse to merely some irrelevance, insures continued cultural ignorance and ignores the other issues such as opening the door to equal rights for gays.

Actually, what is interesting about the Wikipedia piece is that it puts Irish in the Northern Ireland context (a reconstructed language or dialect) in the same place as SF put Ulster-Scots.

For Reals

blanch152 wrote: »

Actually, what is interesting about the Wikipedia piece is that it puts Irish in the Northern Ireland context (a reconstructed language or dialect) in the same place as SF put Ulster-Scots.

Not really. That's (a part of anyway) the discussion isn't it?

We've gone from SF being unreasonable about language, to the DUP being similar over Ulster Scots, (a variant of pidgin English IMO).
Now we've moved on to the legitimacy of a language.

Back to point, this current impasse is not just down to SF and the Irish language.

FrancieBrady

Somebody has yet to explain what it is they expect SF, the SDLP and moderates to do in northern Ireland. Just keep going on pretending to be a normal society and turn a blind eye to one party blocking progress again and again and again?

As soon as SF took a hardline their vote went up...what does that say about the frustration of the people?

end of the road

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Somebody has yet to explain what it is they expect SF, the SDLP and moderates to do in northern Ireland. Just keep going on pretending to be a normal society and turn a blind eye to one party blocking progress again and again and again?

As soon as SF took a hardline their vote went up...what does that say about the frustration of the people?

exactly. most people have had enough of the DUP. the tories are so desperate for power they will get into bed with them and implement a coalition of chaos, and the DUP are so desperate for influence in britain. no doubt it's only a matter of time before the lot goes bang and the DUP are thankfully buried for good, meaning NI can progress and move forward and modernise fully.

Red_Wake

end of the road wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Somebody has yet to explain what it is they expect SF, the SDLP and moderates to do in northern Ireland. Just keep going on pretending to be a normal society and turn a blind eye to one party blocking progress again and again and again?

As soon as SF took a hardline their vote went up...what does that say about the frustration of the people?

exactly. most people have had enough of the DUP. the tories are so desperate for power they will get into bed with them and implement a coalition of chaos, and the DUP are so desperate for influence in britain. no doubt it's only a matter of time before the lot goes bang and the DUP are thankfully buried for good, meaning NI can progress and move forward and modernise fully.

The DUP is still the largest party in NI, which somewhat undermines this assertion.

FrancieBrady

Red_Wake wrote: »

The DUP is still the largest party in NI, which somewhat undermines this assertion.

I wonder if the people of the UK were asked about that, what the answer would be?
Given that this party is blocking key rights that the people of the UK have? Would the UK electorate be happy that these people have influence in Westminster?
I think he is right, most people have had enough of the DUP, on the island of Ireland and in the UK.

Red_Wake

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

The DUP is still the largest party in NI, which somewhat undermines this assertion.

I wonder if the people of the UK were asked about that, what the answer would be?
Given that this party is blocking key rights that the people of the UK have? Would the UK electorate be happy that these people have influence in Westminster?
I think he is right, most people have had enough of the DUP, on the island of Ireland and in the UK.

When did nationalists in NI start needing the rest of the UK for political support?

The UK electorate is apparently unhappy about it going by the media[though I'm unclear how much of this is related to the DUP's policies and how much is due to them supporting the Tory party and the cash payoff which they're receiving], but you can be sure they'd be just as sick of SF[due to SF's past actions in the mainland].
So really you should say the UK is sick of both main NI parties. But again, you'll only represent one side of the sectarian divide.

FrancieBrady

Red_Wake wrote: »

When did nationalists in NI start needing the rest of the UK for political support?

The UK electorate is apparently unhappy about it going by the media[though I'm unclear how much of this is related to the DUP's policies and how much is due to them supporting the Tory party and the cash payoff which they're receiving], but you can be sure they'd be just as sick of SF[due to SF's past actions in the mainland].
So really you should say the UK is sick of both main NI parties. But again, you'll only represent one side of the sectarian divide.

You may or may not be right. But despite the effort to make it about SF... again, you objected to the poster claiming that 'most people are sick of the DUP'.


In the UK they have only known the policies of the DUP in a crash course for the last few weeks and they are turning away in disgust already.
It's shocking the amount of MP's who would be discriminated against by DUP policy who are willing to turn a blind eye to what is happening to their so called fellow citizens. 'United Kingdom'? Aye right.

Red_Wake

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

When did nationalists in NI start needing the rest of the UK for political support?

The UK electorate is apparently unhappy about it going by the media[though I'm unclear how much of this is related to the DUP's policies and how much is due to them supporting the Tory party and the cash payoff which they're receiving], but you can be sure they'd be just as sick of SF[due to SF's past actions in the mainland].
So really you should say the UK is sick of both main NI parties. But again, you'll only represent one side of the sectarian divide.

You may or may not be right. But despite the effort to make it about SF... again, you objected to the poster claiming that 'most people are sick of the DUP'.


In the UK they have only known the policies of the DUP in a crash course for the last few weeks and they are turning away in disgust already.
It's shocking the amount of MP's who would be discriminated against by DUP policy who are willing to turn a blind eye to what is happening to their so called fellow citizens. 'United Kingdom'? Aye right.

Given that the citizens of the mainland of the UK have only really been paying attention to the DUP for a few weeks, and that one of the conditions of their support was a cash payoff, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some element of contempt. Their support is parish pump politics writ large.

Is it unreasonable to bring up SF in the context of the UK, when the thread is about SF's relationship to Westminster. To me it seems the DUP has more claim to be off topic.

FrancieBrady

Red_Wake wrote: »

Given that the citizens of the mainland of the UK have only really been paying attention to the DUP for a few weeks, and that one of the conditions of their support was a cash payoff, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some element of contempt. Their support is parish pump politics writ large.

Is it unreasonable to bring up SF in the context of the UK, when the thread is about SF's relationship to Westminster. To me it seems the DUP has more claim to be off topic.

Yes it is in relation to the comment made by the poster who wasn't talking about SF.
Everything that happens does not need the rider 'ah but SF are.....'. It has been going on since the start of the thread. Silly tbh.

Red_Wake

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

Given that the citizens of the mainland of the UK have only really been paying attention to the DUP for a few weeks, and that one of the conditions of their support was a cash payoff, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some element of contempt. Their support is parish pump politics writ large.

Is it unreasonable to bring up SF in the context of the UK, when the thread is about SF's relationship to Westminster. To me it seems the DUP has more claim to be off topic.

Yes it is in relation to the comment made by the poster who wasn't talking about SF.
Everything that happens does not need the rider 'ah but SF are.....'. It has been going on since the start of the thread. Silly tbh.

Again, the thread is about SF.

FrancieBrady

This is a useful piece summing up were nationalists are at with the DUP.
Rather than it being a cheap diversion it is a sign that patience has completely run out with the DUP and the British Government if not the Irish one as well.

For most nationalists Cultural Supremacy has meant and means only one thing: Orange and unionist domination and naked sectarianism. Nationalists genuinely feel and have felt like second class citizens in our own place. Most have no affinity with Britishness and most certainly none for unionism, loyalism or Orangeism. Yet we are surrounded on every side by the symbols of Britishness and the ‘unique displays of Britishness’ which dominate the public space.

I pay a TV licence yet every year must witness airtime given, courtesy of the BBC and my money, to what is to me is a display of naked sectarianism, foisted upon us under the guise of an Orangefest. Then there is the effrontery of the bonfires, the seas of flags, kerb painting and territory marking. Many bonfires are lit by DUP and unionist worthies. Many others besides are bedecked with the most grossly offensive sectarian, anti-nationalist and anti-catholic displays of hatred. Most are built throughout my native city with the clear preference being to have them in as close proximity as possible to the misnamed peace walls.

Young loyalists, driven into paroxysms of ‘loyalist grievance’ are ignored, even worse, indulged as they erect huge and in some cases life threatening bonfires wherever they like, be it private or public space. This is tolerated and colluded with by those in authority and come the night of the 11th of July there will be scenes of drunkeness and drug taking with blood-curdling songs celebrating sentiments such as ‘we are up to our necks in fenian blood’ and other even more offensive lyrics yet we are told by the DUP that this is to be equated with protection of Irish, an indigenous minority language which has the oldest vernacular literature in Europe and which is a shared heritage for all.

Language protection is a Europe wide practice. Our neighbours in Scotland and Wales have legal protections. How much more do we need them here given our circumstances?.

http://eamonnmallie.com/2017/07/dont-trust-unioinist-politicians-respect-rights-jake-mac-siacais/

end of the road

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I wonder if the people of the UK were asked about that, what the answer would be?
Given that this party is blocking key rights that the people of the UK have? Would the UK electorate be happy that these people have influence in Westminster?
I think he is right, most people have had enough of the DUP, on the island of Ireland and in the UK.

unfortunately some of the electorate are happy because it means the tories are in power and labour aren't. that's how desperate they are for the tories to remain in power. the same people were ranting about corbyn being a terrorist sympathiser and supporter, yet try and justify the tories getting in to bed with actual extremists. brexit has a lot to do with it as well, because these people want a brexit that means no more brown people, rather then one that is good for the uk and all effected.

astrofool

Ah now, bonfires, tv programs and name calling, by reacting to these, they're getting exactly what they want, ignored, it will be gone within a generation or two. I'm not sure what the goal is, make racists think different, or give equal opportunity to racists on both sides of the divide?

Again, all those things above don't matter to the daily lives of most people on this Island.

FrancieBrady

astrofool wrote: »

Ah now, bonfires, tv programs and name calling, by reacting to these, they're getting exactly what they want, ignored, it will be gone within a generation or two. I'm not sure what the goal is, make racists think different, or give equal opportunity to racists on both sides of the divide?

Again, all those things above don't matter to the daily lives of most people on this Island.

If they don't matter, why are you here?

astrofool

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If they don't matter, why are you here?

As a citizen of Ireland and a member of boards I should be allowed to call out the childishness that is Northern Ireland politics.

FrancieBrady

astrofool wrote: »

As a citizen of Ireland and a member of boards I should be allowed to call out the childishness that is Northern Ireland politics.

Yes and I should be allowed to call out childishness on Boards.

Part of the continuing problem here is the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude from those in the south whose duty it is to see to it that the GFA takes effect.

It's just the usual laziness and selfishness. I wonder what would happen if 100 foot high bonfires, burning effigies of people of your identity, appeared over the gardens of Foxrock.
Quick and decisive action I would imagine.

astrofool

They can burn effigies of me all they want, if they have a license for a bonfire, have at it, I also didn't question why you were posting on this thread.

The Northern Ireland problem is two sides unable to see beyond their own nose, getting more entrenched in insulting each other in more and more obnoxious ways, and neither side able to get over it. Move on, ignore them, and they'll burn themselves out, the Neanderthals within the DUP and SF will soon start disappearing and dying off.

FrancieBrady

astrofool wrote: »

They can burn effigies of me all they want, if they have a license for a bonfire, have at it, I also didn't question why you were posting on this thread.

The Northern Ireland problem is two sides unable to see beyond their own nose, getting more entrenched in insulting each other in more and more obnoxious ways, and neither side able to get over it. Move on, ignore them, and they'll burn themselves out, the Neanderthals within the DUP and SF will soon start disappearing and dying off.

Well I challenge you to show us, how on the scale that the DUP is denying rights, that nationalists are doing 'the same'?

On the scale that Unionists engage in sectarian displays of supremacy, that nationalists are doing the same?

One or two incidents won't suffice here, show us the similarity in scale.

And it is quite clear you have no understanding of what happens in many places during the 'cultural expression' that is Orangefest.

The Golden Miller

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well I challenge you to show us, how on the scale that the DUP is denying rights, that nationalists are doing 'the same'?

On the scale that Unionists engage in sectarian displays of supremacy, that nationalists are doing the same?

I'd say you'll be waiting a while for a straight answer to the above

end of the road

astrofool wrote: »

They can burn effigies of me all they want, if they have a license for a bonfire, have at it, I also didn't question why you were posting on this thread.

The Northern Ireland problem is two sides unable to see beyond their own nose, getting more entrenched in insulting each other in more and more obnoxious ways, and neither side able to get over it. Move on, ignore them, and they'll burn themselves out, the Neanderthals within the DUP and SF will soon start disappearing and dying off.

it's only the DUP and it's staunch supporters who are intrenched and unwilling to move on.
sf and it's supporters are willing to move forward to build a better northern ireland for all dispite the treatment the catholic population received, and dispite the sectarianism and bigotry still going on from elements of the unionist community. they know and believe it is the right thing to do, as a modernised forward thinking progressive northern ireland is a better northern ireland.
as the british government are now in bed with the DUP, and direct rule from westminster is a very high possibility, northern ireland is at huge risk of sliding backwards, as the DUP will be ruling the territory via it's coalition of chaos with the tories, who will once again be aiding and abeting rather then being impartial in relation to northern ireland like it is supposed to be.
foster needs to be pushed out and the power sharing needs to get back up and running. the DUP cannot be left to be fully in charge.

astrofool

So the answer is for both sides to be allowed be pr!cks to each other at the same scale? Got it.

If SF is not forming government over the Irish Language Act, then they haven't moved on. It's stupid petty escalation on both sides, and we'll be sitting here in the same situation in decades time unless one side manages to get over themselves and rise above it.

By making Foster an issue, it just made the DUP stand behind her even more, because that's what both sides are doing to each other, finding little petty things and trying to stick it in the eye of the other side.

For Reals

astrofool wrote: »

So the answer is for both sides to be allowed be pr!cks to each other at the same scale? Got it.

If SF is not forming government over the Irish Language Act, then they haven't moved on. It's stupid petty escalation on both sides, and we'll be sitting here in the same situation in decades time unless one side manages to get over themselves and rise above it.

By making Foster an issue, it just made the DUP stand behind her even more, because that's what both sides are doing to each other, finding little petty things and trying to stick it in the eye of the other side.

It's not just about language. It's also about equality for same sex couples and other things. The idea any party should, 'just move on' from their politics defeats the purpose of being involved in politics.
'By making Foster an issue'; it's the job of all public representatives to call out anything untoward. Of course they could ignore their politics and the behaviour of Foster in the interest of the greater good, regardless of how much of a bigoted shambles it ends up being?

FrancieBrady

astrofool wrote: »

So the answer is for both sides to be allowed be pr!cks to each other at the same scale? Got it.

Yet another who cannot back up 'they are all the same' dirge and lie.

If SF is not forming government over the Irish Language Act, then they haven't moved on. It's stupid petty escalation on both sides, and we'll be sitting here in the same situation in decades time unless one side manages to get over themselves and rise above it.

By making Foster an issue, it just made the DUP stand behind her even more, because that's what both sides are doing to each other, finding little petty things and trying to stick it in the eye of the other side.

Like I said earlier, you don't get to decide what are petty issues.
The yearly routine expressions of cultural supremacy that is the 'Orangefest' you would not tolerate in Clontarf. But you expect nationalists to concur with your assessment that these are trivial things.

One side indeed needs to move here, and give the rights that every other citizen, including your good self, has on these islands.

Nationalists have stayed in this executive since the GFA and the time has come for it to be fully implemented. Perish the thought that some southerners might for once support that.

Junkyard Tom

astrofool wrote: »

By making Foster an issue, it just made the DUP stand behind her even more, because that's what both sides are doing to each other, finding little petty things and trying to stick it in the eye of the other side.

Foster and the DUP made Foster an issue. All the political parties wanted her to stand aside while an enquiry was held to establish if she was complicit in corruption of the £500m RHI scheme.

Also, the Scots and Welsh have language acts yet the DUP see fit to block a Irish langauge act? The DUP would rather sneer at Irish language speakers such is their hatred of all aspects of Irish culture/heritage.

One side is not as bad as the other.

Red_Wake

astrofool wrote: »

They can burn effigies of me all they want, if they have a license for a bonfire, have at it, I also didn't question why you were posting on this thread.

The Northern Ireland problem is two sides unable to see beyond their own nose, getting more entrenched in insulting each other in more and more obnoxious ways, and neither side able to get over it.  Move on, ignore them, and they'll burn themselves out, the Neanderthals within the DUP and SF will soon start disappearing and dying off.

Both parties are in rude health with voters, as much as I'd like it not to be.

If anything, NI has gotten more extreme politically in the last 10-15 years [from the moderates of Trimble and Hume to the extremists of DUP and SF], and I expect it will continue on this trajectory until violence erupts once again.

FrancieBrady

Red_Wake wrote: »

Both parties are in rude health with voters, as much as I'd like it not to be.

If anything, NI has gotten more extreme politically in the last 10-15 years [from the moderates of Trimble and Hume to the extremists of DUP and SF], and I expect it will continue on this trajectory until violence erupts once again.

Again, please demonstrate with links and sources how SF, who advocate for the full range of rights available to you and I and everyone else in Ireland and the UK, can be called an 'extreme' of anything.

It is a tired, lazy old descriptor.

Mal-Adjusted

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Also, the Scots and Welsh have language acts yet the DUP see fit to block a Irish langauge act? The DUP would rather sneer at Irish language speakers

Sorry for being a bit thick, but i don't get it.

FrancieBrady

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I'd say you'll be waiting a while for a straight answer to the above

I'd say you might be right.

Irishweather

end of the road wrote: »

it's only the DUP and it's staunch supporters who are intrenched and unwilling to move on.
sf and it's supporters are willing to move forward to build a better northern ireland for all dispite the treatment the catholic population received, and dispite the sectarianism and bigotry still going on from elements of the unionist community. they know and believe it is the right thing to do, as a modernised forward thinking progressive northern ireland is a better northern ireland.
as the british government are now in bed with the DUP, and direct rule from westminster is a very high possibility, northern ireland is at huge risk of sliding backwards, as the DUP will be ruling the territory via it's coalition of chaos with the tories, who will once again be aiding and abeting rather then being impartial in relation to northern ireland like it is supposed to be.
foster needs to be pushed out and the power sharing needs to get back up and running. the DUP cannot be left to be fully in charge.

SF don't want to build a better Northern Ireland. Their goal is for the gradual receeding of all British influence in Northern Ireland towards a United Ireland.

Why do you think they are being so stubborn?