Lions v New Zealand, 2nd Test, 1/7 8.35AM

molloyjh

Only got to half watch the second half but it was the result the tour needed obviously. There were times I thought the Lions looked good, particularly in the last quarter. One thing that did stand out to me though was the Kiwi forwards. Against the full 8 man Lions pack I thought they were excellent.

But they'll be missing a few outside backs now to injury and suspension. This last Test is as good an opportunity as the Lions could hope to get I think. The forwards need to step it up a bit and the discipline needs sorting. They're not going to go in as favourites but it's not as far from their grasp as many of us thought a few weeks back.

Burkie1203

irishman86 wrote: »

He really wasnt excellent, people seem to love ignoring the lack of another back row against him.

And? Rugby isnt about 6v6 and 7v7 etc. Its one team v the other. Lions won. Warburton was excellent. Man up and admit your wrong

The Rape of Lucretia

Neil3030 wrote: »

Interesting decision by the ABs to pull Kaino after Sonny Bill's red. Especially in those conditions, you'd think having parity in the trenches is more important than covering the backline out wide.

Murray was outstanding, and I thought Itoje also got through an incredible amount of work. He is a complete freak of an athlete. Sinckler would want to watch his temper by the looks of things, he wanted to throw down after he was taken in the air, and then again at the final whistle and I'm pretty sure I saw him involved in another row as the teams walked off the pitch.

Nod to the NZ commentators btw. Very balanced comments on the major issues of the game.

BTW, I can't fathom a coach not using his entire bench. I can only imagine it's ego/mind games, but my heart goes out to the players who didn't get on the field, Stander in particular.

You play your best players. If they are still up to the pace you dont mess for the sake of it and bring on a lesser player just because he is fresh.
Stander least of all of todays bench who has made little or no good claim to a test place.
They are big boys and should be able to suck it up about being second choice and back up only. Its not minis.

irishbucsfan

Basil3 wrote: »

Was reading some fellow kiwis comments on Facebook. They're seriously ripping into him! Quite surprised, thought he was pretty good. Policing of the offside line was pretty poor, but that could have been both ways, only really pay attention to where the Lions are on defence

He gave multiple penalties against the Lions for offside, not the ABs.

But Lions deserved them, they were slow getting back to the line on numerous occasions

The image you are showing is never going to be given in any game*. Materiality is important in judging a refereeing decision.

*Actually I looked at it again, they were quite far off on that one. Could have been given, but others were.

bilston

We never saw a replay but a couple of minutes before Vunipola lost his head there was a hint of a late tackle on Farrell. That seemed to cause Vunipola's loss of sanity. Garces seemed happy enough though.

Burkie1203

bilston wrote: »

I nearly choked on Bacon and Eggs when the commentators said SBW was the first All Black to be sent off since 1967. They must be an incredibly disciplined bunch!

SBW just got his timing wrong. By about 1 week. Peyper wouldnt have issued red last week

WR need to address Peypers knowledge of the foul play rules

The Rape of Lucretia

Neil3030 wrote: »

Interesting decision by the ABs to pull Kaino after Sonny Bill's red. Especially in those conditions, you'd think having parity in the trenches is more important than covering the backline out wide.

Murray was outstanding, and I thought Itoje also got through an incredible amount of work. He is a complete freak of an athlete. Sinckler would want to watch his temper by the looks of things, he wanted to throw down after he was taken in the air, and then again at the final whistle and I'm pretty sure I saw him involved in another row as the teams walked off the pitch.

Nod to the NZ commentators btw. Very balanced comments on the major issues of the game.

BTW, I can't fathom a coach not using his entire bench. I can only imagine it's ego/mind games, but my heart goes out to the players who didn't get on the field, Stander in particular.

You play your best players. If they are still up to the pace you dont mess for the sake of it and bring on a lesser player just because he is fresh.
Stander least of all of todays bench who has made little or no good claim to a test place.
They are big boys and should be able to suck it up about being second choice and back up only. Its not minis.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Only got to half watch the second half but it was the result the tour needed obviously. There were times I thought the Lions looked good, particularly in the last quarter. One thing that did stand out to me though was the Kiwi forwards. Against the full 8 man Lions pack I thought they were excellent.

But they'll be missing a few outside backs now to injury and suspension. This last Test is as good an opportunity as the Lions could hope to get I think. The forwards need to step it up a bit and the discipline needs sorting. They're not going to go in as favourites but it's not as far from their grasp as many of us thought a few weeks back.

The Lions were really excellent in the first 20 too. The rain was torrential but they really got on top, albeit without scoring. The stupid penalties started to creep in at that point.

irishbucsfan

Have we ever seen a Lions tour with so few injuries?

Could be almost full strength for this test. Obviously Billy V is a big loss but in general they've been very lucky.

I'd expect Cratty and Smuth to be back next week

Sephiral

irishman86 wrote: »

He really wasnt excellent, people seem to love ignoring the lack of another back row against him.

Your point has some merit. But what could he do, send Seanie to the sidelines so he could show how good he played in an even setting? He could only play what was in front of him, and he played it extremely well. He constantly slowed AB ball when they were making massive inroads in midfield. He was a large part of the AB attack not threatening the line.

I really think the problem was Farrell at centre. He lost massive ground defending and doesn't offer any running threat. The thought of Laumape running down the 10-12 channel for the full game is worrisome. Is it really worth the cost of admission for getting the ball wide?

I don't know what the Lions can do to fix the centres tbh with what they have available to them. It's hard to argue too much with the original selection, but henshaw not touring well seriously hampered them there. The Scots, Ringrose could have helped too.

More ball carriers needed next week. Henderson should bench on merit, but the locks all went well today. Big Billy an absolute huge miss. I'd say he would win the series for the Lions.

irishman86

Burkie1203 wrote: »

And? Rugby isnt about 6v6 and 7v7 etc. Its one team v the other. Lions won. Warburton was excellent. Man up and admit your wrong

No its 15 against 15 and admitting I was wrong well would be wrong as I dont see myself being wrong. Warburton was average and this is while he had a advantage with Kaino leaving the field, but hey lets just ignore that

irishman86

bilston wrote: »

We never saw a replay but a couple of minutes before Vunipola lost his head there was a hint of a late tackle on Farrell. That seemed to cause Vunipola's loss of sanity. Garces seemed happy enough though.

Jesus is anything ever one of the Lions players fault. Its hardly the first time a penalty hasnt been given for a team, no excuse to go off like a idiot doing stupid stuff

Sephiral

Sephiral wrote: »

I really think the problem was Farrell at centre. He lost massive ground defending and doesn't offer any running threat. The thought of Laumape running down the 10-12 channel for the full game is worrisome. Is it really worth the cost of admission for getting the ball wide?

I think the tries, especially Felatau's says yes. SOB who isn't great in the lineout was standing in midfield off those which shored things up. Farrell is actually quite a solid guy but he needs to go lower when tackling. I would be very reluctant to change things. I think Sexton has to start again because in the three games now he's been prominent in his bringing the ball up to the gainline and picking passes has caused the opposition trouble.

irishbucsfan

bilston wrote: »

We never saw a replay but a couple of minutes before Vunipola lost his head there was a hint of a late tackle on Farrell. That seemed to cause Vunipola's loss of sanity. Garces seemed happy enough though.

Yeah, they seemed very similar challenges.

No excuse for Vunipola though. Severe questions over whether you want someone so easily riled on the pitch for the decider.

Burkie1203

irishman86 wrote: »

No its 15 against 15 and admitting I was wrong well would be wrong as I dont see myself being wrong. Warburton was average and this is while he had a advantage with Kaino leaving the field, but hey lets just ignore that

Well today it was 15 v 14 due to foul play and NZ chose to sacrifice Kaino to keep a full back line. It doesn't matter who NZ had carrying. Warburton was tasked with slowing the ball and he did that. He wasnt tasked with only slowing ball his opposite number carried or marking Kaino. Rugby doesn't work that way.

irishman86

Sephiral wrote: »

Your point has some merit. But what could he do, send Seanie to the sidelines so he could show how good he played in an even setting? He could only play what was in front of him, and he played it extremely well. He constantly slowed AB ball when they were making massive inroads in midfield. He was a large part of the AB attack not threatening the line.

I really think the problem was Farrell at centre. He lost massive ground defending and doesn't offer any running threat. The thought of Laumape running down the 10-12 channel for the full game is worrisome. Is it really worth the cost of admission for getting the ball wide?

I don't know what the Lions can do to fix the centres tbh with what they have available to them. It's hard to argue too much with the original selection, but henshaw not touring well seriously hampered them there. The Scots, Ringrose could have helped too.

More ball carriers needed next week. Henderson should bench on merit, but the locks all went well today. Big Billy an absolute huge miss. I'd say he would win the series for the Lions.

Not at all, more reign in the hyperbole on how amazing he was. I dont think he was a large part that was down to Barrett having a off day and the weather conditions.
I agree with you regarding Farrell but its either no go forward ball or a solid defence as like you said Henshaw has toured poorly.
I dont agree with you regarding locks I think they were both poor Jones more so than Idojte I agree with your regarding Henderson and Billy(well maybe not win the series)

Sephiral

Shane Fierce Tinder wrote: »

I think the tries, especially Felatau's says yes. SOB who isn't great in the lineout was standing in midfield off those which shored things up. Farrell is actually quite a solid guy but he needs to go lower when tackling. I would be very reluctant to change things. I think Sexton has to start again because in the three games now he's been prominent in his bringing the ball up to the gainline and picking passes has caused the opposition trouble.

I agree, but in a least worst option way. It really is a pity Henshaw couldn't get going on tour and wasn't given time outside Sexton.

Also, while Farrell is a really excellent rugby player, I think Sexton has really shown that he is still a better flyhalf.

dregin

Shane Fierce Tinder wrote: »

Did you hear him trying to talk Garces out of the red. I was in disbelief.

Serious questions need to be asked about whether or not he should be involved at this level. Player welfare is at risk when he's calling the shots. It's beyond a joke at this stage.

Sephiral

irishman86 wrote: »

Not at all, more reign in the hyperbole on how amazing he was. I dont think he was a large part that was down to Barrett having a off day and the weather conditions.
I agree with you regarding Farrell but its either no go forward ball or a solid defence as like you said Henshaw has toured poorly.
I dont agree with you regarding locks I think they were both poor Jones more so than Idojte I agree with your regarding Henderson and Billy(well maybe not win the series)

Actually, I take it back about AWJ. He was passable, but doesn't deserve his place.

Sephiral

Sephiral wrote: »

I agree, but in a least worst option way. It really is a pity Henshaw couldn't get going on tour and wasn't given time outside Sexton.

Also, while Farrell is a really excellent rugby player, I think Sexton has really shown that he is still a better flyhalf.

Yeah for sure. I thought after the squad was picked Henshaw had a great chance at a test place, but he tailed off as the season went on and is injured obviously now.

Neil3030

Btw are we all outraged at Farrell holding TJP's leg right before Murray's try? Or the swinging arm that gave Naholo a concussion? I need to go to the butchers, but I'll have a few hours later in the afternoon to be suitably incensed.

irishman86

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Well today it was 15 v 14 due to foul play and NZ chose to sacrifice Kaino to keep a full back line. It doesn't matter who NZ had carrying. Warburton was tasked with slowing the ball and he did that. He wasnt tasked with only slowing ball his opposite number carried or marking Kaino. Rugby doesn't work that way.

Im not sure you understand how rugby works if you are ignoring the fact that Kaino not being there took one of the most dominant flankers out of the game. But hey if you want to think Gats made the right call off with you, next week when he picks him and Jones again and barring another red card we will see a very different result

.ak

What a game. Will stay in the history books of one of the greats.

Sexton and Farrell were magnificent. Imagine what they could do with more possession not interrupted by constant penalties.

Back three had a fine game considering the difficulties they had to deal with. Still think we need to get Watson on the Ball more infield.

Murray, excellence personified.

Faletau, try aside, was very quiet. Could've been in for a 2nd if he watched the ball on Murray's kick.

SOB was my motm, shocked when I saw he "only" carried 9 times, he was everywhere.

I thought Warburton was a great call, he was class. He was a nuisance at every breakdown, his latch work was brilliant, and of course he was imperious in set piece.

Itoje could've easily been motm too. How was he not started last week? Awesome! AWJ in fairness was a beast today.

Front row, George stood out for me, just goes on and on, Mako started well but almost cost us the game. 5 penalties and a yellow card... Jesus. Furlong had a tidy game in the right but no barn storming runs or link play we've come to expect.

Tight game but odd we didn't use subs... thought T'eo should've replaced Davies as soon as we scored the 2nd try to make them honest, Stander too as Faletau wasn't doing anything special.

FrancieBrady

BBDBB wrote: »

Do you want some salt for that chip on your shoulder?

Well stop dragging the arse out of it by trying to make me out as some kind of traitor for saying NZ will respond and come back stronger and that will be even harder to beat than this week

I've said the win was great achievement, I'm delighted to see it, but it doesn't change that they made hard work of a man advantage or that NZ had a bad day kicking for points

You eventually said it was a great achievement. I responded first to your downbeat, 'how dare we beat them' posting.


We had a bad day discipline wise, scored two brilliant tries and won the game in atrocious conditions.

.ak

Neil3030 wrote: »

Btw are we all outraged at Farrell holding TJP's leg right before Murray's try? Or the swinging arm that gave Naholo a concussion? I need to go to the butchers, but I'll have a few hours later in the afternoon to be suitably incensed.

Both sides were cynical in the extreme, Lions were offside all day, All Blacks were in at the side all day... but the officiating was 100% better than last week. We can't blame the ref for all the penalties we gave, all correct imo... bar the late hit on Barrett, don't think that was a penalty.

evil_seed

Lions were lucky today. Barrett missed sitters, SBW red card, mako only a yellow, high penalty count deserved another yellow for constant infringement. Good from the lions: back row, Murray, itoje, Lawes, Bad from the lions: 10-12 channel in defense, scrum wasn't dominant, mako, discipline in general. Good from all blacks: Sam Cane Vs 2 opensides, midfield Bad from the all blacks: basics let them down, discipline

It was a tense game, and it's hard not to be happy the lions won for the fact that it's a winner takes all next week

Erik Shin

Lads...just had word from swiwi...he's put on his childcatcher outfit from Chitty Chitty and he's off to Samoa and Fiji for a month

irishbucsfan

Saw this on Reddit. Best performance of the week

Sephiral

How good was Sam Cane btw. I thought he was magnificent last week and the Lions really only came back in to it when he went off.

jr86

GiftofGab wrote: »

Warburton. I'd pick Tipuric with POM on bench.

Itoje was off form today.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can see matches so differently. Warburton had a fine game, there is not a hope in hell he'd be dropped.

As for Itoje "off form"??? He was magnificent. If he stays fit I've no doubt he'll go on to become one of the greats

pickarooney

Gatland not cheapening the Lions jersey by giving subs a few token minutes: is this a positive or negative thing this week?

BBDBB

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You eventually said it was a great achievement. I responded first to your downbeat, 'how dare we beat them' posting.


We had a bad day discipline wise, scored two brilliant tries and won the game in atrocious conditions.

actually I said it 4 minutes earlier than the post you are reacting to

as I said, I don't consider it downbeat, but I can see how it may seem that way. What I totally reject is that its "how dare we beat them" thats not true and a total invention in your head

Yep from a Lions perspective those points are all accurate

jr86

.ak wrote: »

I thought Warburton was a great call, he was class. He was a nuisance at every breakdown, his latch work was brilliant, and of course he was imperious in set piece.

AWJ in fairness was a beast today.

Fully agree with this.

AWJ had a super workmanlike performance, it won't make the highlight reels or reactionary analysis from many barstoolers, but I thought he more than justified his selection

Can't see any changes next week

pickarooney

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Saw this on Reddit. Best performance of the week

Is that supposed to be a contradiction?

.ak

jr86 wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can see matches so differently. Warburton had a fine game, there is not a hope in hell he'd be dropped.

As for Itoje "off form"??? He was magnificent. If he stays fit I've no doubt he'll go on to become one of the greats

Agreed, itoje or SOB were motm, itoje restarts were nothing short of world class.

Warburton was class. Such a clever operator.

jr86

It was only a small enough cameo in the end but I thought Lawes really brought something too

It really is scary the depth England have in the second row going forward

clsmooth

jr86 wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can see matches so differently. Warburton had a fine game, there is not a hope in hell he'd be dropped.

As for Itoje "off form"??? He was magnificent. If he stays fit I've no doubt he'll go on to become one of the greats

He mixed good and bad. Had a physical impact and one great turnover in the first half but also couple of silly penalties and a spilled ball (which can be somewhat excused by the conditions).

FrancieBrady

BBDBB wrote: »

as I said, I don't consider it downbeat, but I can see how it may seem that way.

It seems that you are scared. Hence the reference to the guy in Alone It Stands fretting about a backlash.

Bring it on, I say.

BBDBB

pickarooney wrote: »

Gatland not cheapening the Lions jersey by giving subs a few token minutes: is this a positive or negative thing this week?

I think the issue re subs use is twofold

1) Mako was carded for I think his 3rd offence, given the warning bells were ringing after his second offence, perhaps he could have been pulled ashore earlier, but then the delay between deciding that, getting the message to the touchline and then getting the 4th official to make it happen may have made that impossible

2) NZ started the second half well, they had a clear plan ringing in their ears, keep the ball and lets play in their half. Their execution of that was excellent for about 20 to 25 minutes, the Lions hardly got a sniff and then kept coughing up the ball when they did get it or conceding penalties.
I think at that point (i.e. before the yellow card) Gatland should have been looking to use his bench sooner

Gbear

bilston wrote: »

I nearly choked on Bacon and Eggs when the commentators said SBW was the first All Black to be sent off since 1967. They must be an incredibly disciplined bunch!

There was that statistic from a few months ago that they got something like 4 times as many penalties for each yellow card as the Aussies and the Boks in the Tri-Nations.

If McCaw was anything to go by, they're just really good at cheating and getting away with it.

AdamD

Thought Itoje was a complete liability, MOTM calls are scandalous.

Gbear

Gbear wrote: »

If McCaw was anything to go by, they're just really good at cheating and getting away with it.

Is that something kids here are taught along with the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus? I guess parents just forget to tell their kids it's a load of rubbish.

BBDBB

BBDBB wrote: »

I think the issue re subs use is twofold

1) Mako was carded for I think his 3rd offence, given the warning bells were ringing after his second offence, perhaps he could have been pulled ashore earlier, but then the delay between deciding that, getting the message to the touchline and then getting the 4th official to make it happen may have made that impossible

There was a shot of McGrath ready to come on just as Mako was getting binned, he was gone the next time play stopped. It looks like it was decided just after the first penalty on Barrett.

BBDBB

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It seems that you are scared. Hence the reference to the guy in Alone It Stands fretting about a backlash.

Bring it on, I say.

Not sure why you are changing your stance now, is it because the shifting sand suits defence of a weak stance?
As I said I don't get the reference so its totally lost in its repetition


Im the other side of the world, I no longer play, I was never good enough to play at this level. I have no personal connection to anyone playing, if the Lions win or lose it will have little impact on me beyond next Saturday morning. If they win I will be delighted. If they lose I won't be surprised.

What possible reason would I have to be scared? thats a bit bizarre to even consider that to be a motive tbh

BBDBB

Shane Fierce Tinder wrote: »

There was a shot of McGrath ready to come on just as Mako was getting binned, he was gone the next time play stopped. It looks like it was decided just after the first penalty on Barrett.

which suggests it was about to happen, so fair enough

keith_sixteen

Basil3 wrote: »

Is that something kids here are taught along with the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus? I guess parents just forget to tell their kids it's a load of rubbish.

No, it's quite true. The stats bear it out. SBW the first ever AB to be sent off at home.

Fair Play to today's ref. Wasn't afraid to make the correct calls against NZ.

wonderfullife

What was the craic with Mako?

Did he have a few quid on All Blacks or has he just taken one too many hits to the head?

I struggle to recall a more brainless performance on a rugby pitch.

keith_sixteen

keith_sixteen wrote: »

No, it's quite true. The stats bear it out. SBW the first ever AB to be sent off at home.

Fair Play to today's ref. Wasn't afraid to make the correct calls against NZ.

I'm talking about McCaw. It's such a cliche, I think every Irish person who talks to me about rugby has to tell me that McCaw is a cheat.

I'd say the Lion's were penalised a lot more than the All Blacks today, so I'm not ensure what point you're trying to make?

keith_sixteen

Basil3 wrote: »

I'm talking about McCaw. It's such a cliche, I think every Irish person who talks to me about rugby has to tell me that McCaw is a cheat.

I'd say the Lion's were penalised a lot more than the All Blacks today, so I'm not ensure what point you're trying to make?

Fair enough re McCaw. Yes, he pinged both sides and reffed the game very well. My point is that any other ref would have bottled the red card.

Bleating Lamb

jr86 wrote: »

Fully agree with this.

AWJ had a super workmanlike performance, it won't make the highlight reels or reactionary analysis from many barstoolers, but I thought he more than justified his selection

Can't see any changes next week

Vunipolo??