Lions v New Zealand, 2nd Test, 1/7 8.35AM

irishbucsfan

Update, SOB has just been delivered:

Hotei

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

You're as bad!

Sonny Bill Williams

Had anyone had their coffee yet

It's Sinny Bin Williams.*







*Had a good chuckle when I saw this on NZ social media yesterday

Peregrine

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Update, SOB has just been delivered:

BREAKING:

They've opened the cage and it's empty.

Clegg

SoB cleared.

Wooooo

BBDBB

Good news

blackwhite

https://twitter.com/rterugby/status/881481986262675456

Great. Was never worth a ban at all.

irishbucsfan

I guess I'll lock up the pitchfork again until next week so...

CurryFlavoured

Rightly so, would have been completely wrong to ban for that imo.

Buer

Great result. Tad fortunate simply on the basis of how these things normally go.

Not as lucky as MV though.

Podge_irl

Dammit.

There goes the perfect excuse for next week's hammering

flatty

bilston wrote: »

Buer wrote: »

Some very petty, bitter people here. Looks like NZ aren't the only losers.

Great game, good win even if they made it insanely difficult on themselves. Losing a man is a funny thing, it can galvanise the team that lose the man and heap pressure on the team that have the advantage. There have been several high profile games where a man was sent off and his team have gone on to win. The Scarlets in the Pro12 semi final and Racing in last season's T14 final are two that immediately spring to mind.

In the 35 minutes where the two teams had the same number of players, the scoreline was 9-8 which is a decent enough representation of the game. The weather was a significant leveller for the game; no side was going to run away with it particularly given how pumped up the Lions were in the opening spells. Some massive hits went in and some guys were stopped dead on the gain line and shunted back.

I think Gatland will have enjoyed a beer after the game. The win, regardless of whether it was against 15 or 14, is a big result for him and history will remember a test win regardless. His selection of Warburton was 100% repaid. The bloke was physical, prominent at the breakdown and showed up well in the line out. It did strike me as clutching at straws a little when people continually identified the line out as an issue due to choosing Warburton over POM. Warburton is no slouch as a jumper. For context, he won more line out ball in the 6N than any Irish player aside from Toner. He's relatively light and 6'3"...he's not as skilled a practitioner as POM but he's a very solid option and was solid there today.

For next week, Gatland absolutely has to retain the Sexton/Farrell axis (not that he'll consider dropping either now). They'll be without SBW now too and their midfield partnership is going to be inexperienced and unfamiliar. The passing options and decoys are going to be big weapons against that inexperience.

The one guy who has to be dropped, without question, is Vunipola. It's difficult to ever say one guy cost his team a match but he did his utmost today with his stupidity. 4 penalties against one guy including a yellow card. If Gatland held the yellow card against Henderson, he should drop Vunipola from the 23. He won't, nor should he but he has to drop to the bench. Liability.

The only other change I'd demand is that Lawes starts. His dynamism and energy was fantastic. AWJ had a good showing penalty aside and brought some serious physicality to the early exchanges but Lawes offers more. It has been a long tour and Lawes will have a full week to recover from his 25 minutes today. He'll be in great shape come next week.

Only interesting thing that struck me was the use of the bench. When the game is on the line, Gatland clearly doesn't trust Webb, Stander, Te'o (how much must that bad decision last week have p*ssed him off) or Nowell.

The Lions needed Murray's control. I'd say if they were still chasing the game in the final 10 minutes Webb would have come on. There was an argument to bring Te'o near the end to nullify the NZ replacement centre.

Crotty may be back next week so they may not be that raw in the midfield.

I thought Murray was motm. It's strange , even to me, but I didn't really rate him a couple of years back. He was absolutely fantastic yesterday. He also has the attitude.
I'm not sure about awj vs lawes vs Henderson. All are great players. Maybe awj brings something to the team, and the dressing room, that we couldn't see spectating.
Lawes played very well when he came on, and I thought Henderson was outstanding, despite the yellow last week.
I honestly think it'll take a very unlikely string of events for us to win next Saturday. Anyone who thinks losing sbw wasn't a major factor in that win is just wrong in my opinion. Of course it was a major factor. Is Barrett likely to miss those kicks again?
We can all hope, though, and I had presumed it would be a comfortable 3-0 to the all blacks. It's a major feat being competitive out there,with a scratch team, all at the end of a long and vicious hard season. Fair play to them all.
I honestly don't think one should underestimate the tone set by the midweek players either, who went toe to toe with top rank opposition in every game, and won their fair share.
A competitive last game would be great, irrespective of the result. Gatland seems to have a fairly happy squad of players out there,which is testament to his skill as a coach and manager. It help not having w@nkers like Healy and Dawson mind.
Personally, I'd start furlongand McGrath in the front row,and probably use the beach a bit more next week, perhaps bringing lawes on earlier. Of all the players there, I think Henderson is the unluckiest.

flatty

I mean bench. Oops.

Neil3030

A panel of three Aussies decide not to ban a star player for NZ's next opponents....

Coming up next, a panel of three Awecs will decide whether to ban a star player for Saracens' next opponents!

blackdog1

Neil3030 wrote:

A panel of three Aussies decide not to ban a star player for NZ's next opponents....

Well I'd say having John Langford and David croft on the panel helped. Langford would be very pro ireland and croft was a hard back row player.

Erik Shin

blackdog1 wrote: »

Well I'd say having John Langford and David croft on the panel helped. Langford would be very pro ireland and croft was a hard back row player.

One of my all time fave imports.... Pashun abounds within this man

CatFromHue

There also being nothing in it which helped too

thebaz

wow - can't wait - should be one of the great games - maybe , just maybe the impossible can happen (sadly had to miss most of this tour - but will take a lot for me to miss next week

Hastentoadd

Think Mako definitely was somewhat wobbly but I would pick himself and brother Billy anytime. So he had a crap game but that was simply unusual. He is the best player for the position. McGrath is not as good as I see it. I would really like to see Henderson involved. He has struggled with injury this year but he really is a talent when on form. And he is fighting fit for the last test.

Buer

Hastentoadd wrote: »

Think Mako definitely was somewhat wobbly but I would pick himself and brother Billy anytime. So he had a crap game but that was simply unusual. He is the best player for the position.

He had a great tour before the test series. As I posted previously, he was the player of the tour for me before that opening test.

However, his discipline was shocking yesterday in the second half. He conceded two penalties in the first half also; one was borderline and somewhat harsh but he was done at the scrum on his own 22 after the Lions did so well to kill a NZ maul.

He hardly lit up the first test either although he did put in a good, industrious shift. But the crux of the matter is his discipline and scrum work and I think he has an issue there.

I think it was a very close call as it stands given that McGrath was the first sub brought on in the opening test and appeared ready to come on yesterday as the first sub again when Vunipola was carded. It's arguably the single strongest position for the Lions. But I reckon he's going to give the nod to McGrath and Vunipola may be better suited to coming in for 30 minutes against heavy legs anyway.

These tests are won and lost on fine margins. Vunipola is getting a relatively easy time of it right now and in 48 hours, yesterday's showing will be old news. But if NZ kicked the 78th minute penalty and not the Lions, Vunipola would be certainly dropped for the final test and absolutely destroyed in the media for his offences.

irelandrover

Buer wrote: »

He had a great tour before the test series. As I posted previously, he was the player of the tour for me before that opening test.

However, his discipline was shocking yesterday in the second half. He conceded two penalties in the first half also; one was borderline and somewhat harsh but he was done at the scrum on his own 22 after the Lions did so well to kill a NZ maul.

He hardly lit up the first test either although he did put in a good, industrious shift. But the crux of the matter is his discipline and scrum work and I think he has an issue there.

I think it was a very close call as it stands given that McGrath was the first sub brought on in the opening test and appeared ready to come on yesterday as the first sub again when Vunipola was carded. It's arguably the single strongest position for the Lions. But I reckon he's going to give the nod to McGrath and Vunipola may be better suited to coming in for 30 minutes against heavy legs anyway.

These tests are won and lost on fine margins. Vunipola is getting a relatively easy time of it right now and in 48 hours, yesterday's showing will be old news. But if NZ kicked the 78th minute penalty and not the Lions, Vunipola would be certainly dropped for the final test and absolutely destroyed in the media for his offences.

I think Vunipola starts the last test mainly because you dont trust his discipline. You simply do not want him on the pitch in the last few crucial minutes.

Buer

irelandrover wrote: »

I think Vunipola starts the last test mainly because you dont trust his discipline. You simply do not want him on the pitch in the last few crucial minutes.

Vunipola's penalties were directly accountable for 9 of the 21 points yesterday and 3 more came from the field position gained after his yellow card. That's almost impressive in terms of negative influence.

If the Lions had conceded a penalty on halfway in that outstanding defensive series late on and Barrett had knocked it over, it wouldn't have been that offender who people would be hanging for the defeat.

When I look at that (the impact of his 4 penalties), I actually think he's going to be dropped.

Buer

Just on the topic of someone potentially conceding in that phase late on when the Lions were defending on halfway, there was a phase where Sinckler was a mile offside. Tried shooting up, got it completely wrong and tried to retreat before encroaching again and making the tackle. The crowd audibly roar, looking for the penalty. Very, very fortunate it was missed given Garces was fairly sharp on the Lions and their dubious line speed at times.

When Sinckler was taken out for the decisive penalty, he bounced to his feet, looking to make something of it. Murray and George had to grab him by the scruff and pull him away. Thank f*ck they were. Better times to try and convince people your a hard man.

He needs to rein it in significantly. He brings a lot of energy and positives off the bench but his exuberance is a liability at times.

Ardillaun

Buer wrote: »

I think it was a very close tests are won and lost on fine margins. Vunipola is getting a relatively easy time of it right now and in 48 hours, yesterday's showing will be old news. But if NZ kicked the 78th minute penalty and not the Lions, Vunipola would be certainly dropped for the final test and absolutely destroyed in the media for his offences.

Teams sports are odd that way. BV's performance would have been the same but the ratings would have changed for him and everybody else. His discipline was dreadful and the scrummaging wasn't great either.

Don't know why Sinckler was so hyped up - another potential liability.

thomond2006

Sinckler was also in players' faces at the final whistle. A strong word from the management or teammates is needed!

Clegg

Sinckler's teammates will definitely be on his case. I'm sure I read somewhere that immediately after the final whistle Owen Farrell was seen giving him a bollicking.

.ak

Clegg wrote: »

Sinckler's teammates will definitely be on his case. I'm sure I read somewhere that immediately after the final whistle Owen Farrell was seen giving him a bollicking.

Yeah after the final whistle Sinckler had a pop at two ABs over nothing. Afterwards Sinckler refused to shake hands or go down the tunnel whilst the ABs applauded them off. Farrell went mad at him after. Too tight.

Former Former

Vunipola's discipline is rubbish. He should be dropped and Lions should pick Marler, thereby eliminating any risk of stupid penalties.

Hastentoadd

Former Former wrote: »

Vunipola's discipline is rubbish. He should be dropped and Lions should pick Marler, thereby eliminating any risk of stupid penalties.

Don't agree. Marler is and has been useless. Warburton is not going to cut it. He really is shockingly bad. Its the final test. Honestly how can you justify picking these players

CMOTDibbler

Hastentoadd wrote: »

Don't agree. Marler is and has been useless. Warburton is not going to cut it. He really is shockingly bad. Its the final test. Honestly how can you justify picking these players

I think FF may have been a little tongue in cheek. Marler is also a penalty magnet. But good outrage.

clsmooth

Former Former wrote: »

Vunipola's discipline is rubbish. He should be dropped and Lions should pick Marler, thereby eliminating any risk of stupid penalties.

A Marler Hartley Sinckler front row would be something to see

irishbucsfan

Hastentoadd wrote: »

Don't agree. Marler is and has been useless. Warburton is not going to cut it. He really is shockingly bad. Its the final test. Honestly how can you justify picking these players

Warburton is shockingly bad? I must be getting confused here, or there must be two Warburtons

Burkie1203

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Warburton is shockingly bad? I must be getting confused here, or there must be two Warburtons

Warburton is welsh. So was terrible. Even though he was very good on saturday

Hastentoadd

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Warburton is welsh. So was terrible. Even though he was very good on saturday

picked up a few lineouts. otherwise

Ardillaun

It would be nice to see the rate of penalties and YC for each of these prop candidates. I was looking forward to Sinckler's arrival but he changed all that fairly quick. By contrast, I can forgive some of the prop-on-prop peccadilloes, esp. after sustained bashing in the scrum.

pickarooney

Did Dan Cole actually go on this tour? I haven't seen him.

Hastentoadd

Hastentoadd wrote: »

picked up a few lineouts. otherwise

Otherwise put in a really excellent performance in the tight, an area the Lions lost out badly in the week before. Stopped them dead in the tackle, slowed down a huge amount of ball at the rucks. He was very effective. There's no doubt at all he'll start again on Saturday.

OldRio

A rather amusing article in the Irish Times has popped up on my phone. Written by Mary Hannigan. It's about Skys post match interview (hysteria) with the players.
Worth checking out. Sorry can't post a link.

Buer

Shane Fierce Tinder wrote: »

Otherwise put in a really excellent performance in the tight, an area the Lions lost out badly in the week before. Stopped them dead in the tackle, slowed down a huge amount of ball at the rucks. He was very effective. There's no doubt at all he'll start again on Saturday.

The middle third of the game was fairly quiet from him but he started really well and was very prominent. He made some big tackles, got involved in rucks and supported well in the loose.

In the closing 20 minutes he really stepped it up again. In the passage where NZ ended up knocking on at half way, he was buried into about half of the rucks, slowing the ball down, allowing the defensive line to get set. As mentioned already, he was pretty solid in the line out too in brutal conditions.

It wasn't anything spectacular but he had a very good, solid game and is absolutely guaranteed his spot for the final test.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

The middle third of the game was fairly quiet from him but he started really well and was very prominent. He made some big tackles, got involved in rucks and supported well in the loose.

In the closing 20 minutes he really stepped it up again. In the passage where NZ ended up knocking on at half way, he was buried into about half of the rucks, slowing the ball down, allowing the defensive line to get set. As mentioned already, he was pretty solid in the line out too in brutal conditions.

It wasn't anything spectacular but he had a very good, solid game and is absolutely guaranteed his spot for the final test.

I think that was his main contribution overall, that second extra he slowed the ball certainly contributed to NZ not getting outside the Lions defence at all the entire game. Along with being really strong in the tackle. It was also him on SOB's shoulder for that half break in the first half.

Johne Murphy either reads here or came to the exact same conclusion as a few posters here because I heard him on Newstalk on Saturday making nearly word-for-word the same points as made on here re. Warburton. He was full of praise for him anyway.

Buer

Coincidentally, The42 have done an analysis of the passage of play which NZ knocked on.

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-lions-defence-all-blacks-test-two-3475729-Jul2017/

Good review of the Lions linespeed and defensive organisation. Obviously, it's far easier to defend against 14 men but the appetite to get up into position and win the individual collisions was important.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Coincidentally, The42 have done an analysis of the passage of play which NZ knocked on.

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-lions-defence-all-blacks-test-two-3475729-Jul2017/

Good review of the Lions linespeed and defensive organisation. Obviously, it's far easier to defend against 14 men but the appetite to get up into position and win the individual collisions was important.

Hadn't seen that thanks. This is it in a nutshell:

That means Perenara has to commit to the breakdown too [yellow] and that in turns results in slow ball for the All Blacks, a ruck of four seconds and certainly not the kind of lightning-quick ball the Kiwis thrived off in Test one.

In that passage alone he slows the ball up about four times.

ThisRegard

OldRio wrote: »

A rather amusing article in the Irish Times has popped up on my phone. Written by Mary Hannigan. It's about Skys post match interview (hysteria) with the players.
Worth checking out. Sorry can't post a link.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/god-help-us-all-if-the-lions-actually-win-next-saturday-1.3141198

I mentioned at the time how ridiculously over the top Sky were.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Coincidentally, The42 have done an analysis of the passage of play which NZ knocked on.

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-lions-defence-all-blacks-test-two-3475729-Jul2017/

Good review of the Lions linespeed and defensive organisation. Obviously, it's far easier to defend against 14 men but the appetite to get up into position and win the individual collisions was important.

That was a great read, highlights the influence Farrell(Snr) has had on this tour and shows the impact that isn't always visible on a stats sheet in a non defensive way.

I thought TRK's piece on Standers performance from the second test was spot on also, really highlights how much unseen work and graft he got through in the background, another top drawer article from them!

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Warburton is shockingly bad? I must be getting confused here, or there must be two Warburtons

Maybe it's the bread he's thinking of?

It is shockingly bad

leakyboots

Deleted User wrote: »

That was a great read, highlights the influence Farrell(Snr) has had on this tour and shows the impact that isn't always visible on a stats sheet in a non defensive way.

I thought TRK's piece on Standers performance from the second test was spot on also, really highlights how much unseen work and graft he got through in the background, another top drawer article from them!

Here's his analysis for your perusal :P

http://threeredkings.com/the-gif-room-heavy-leather/

pickarooney

Maybe Patrick Warburton? He wasn't great in Seinfeld but his voice work is top notch

trixi2011

Anyone know of any payper views sites I could stream the last test from currently in Greece can get WiFi alright but seems to be no sports Chanel here showing it ?

sydthebeat

trixi2011 wrote: »

Anyone know of any payper views sites I could stream the last test from currently in Greece can get WiFi alright but seems to be no sports Chanel here showing it ?

you could buy a days pass for sky sports from NOW TV for €10
or a week for €15 if youre interested in the irish open, super rugby etc

trixi2011

Have a now TV pass but won't let me access while outside the country. Cheers tho