Pacquiao/Conlan/Povetkin/Shambles of a Sky Card Thread

walshb · 03-07-2017 2:26pm

Straight up I felt Manny looked staler and slower in the Mosley fight than this one if I recall. I think I may have made the point about Manny being slower when he met Mosley, on the Mosley thread.

walshb · 03-07-2017 2:34pm

pac_man wrote: »

Now you're taking the piss.

How so?

Check the activity levels and the punches thrown and the overall intensity and flow....it was a mad busy fight, as well as mad rough and tough.

Unless you have several examples that clearly demonstrate that it was far from his busiest...

walshb · 03-07-2017 2:45pm

pac_man wrote: »

I'm not denying he missed shots and Horn was awkward in parts but to be comparing that performance and saying it's on near par scale with the likes of the Cotto or Margarito fights in terms of activity is just straight up wrong.

That performance the other night was a shadow of former self. There were plenty of examples in which Horn would rush in almost square, waiting to be countered and Pac would just have his hands up taking punches.

I am talking about busyness levels/intensity/rough and tough. It was ten times rougher and tougher than the Cotto and Margarito beat downs. He spent the whole night just beating up Margarito with next to nothing in return. Cotto was shut down from rd 4 onward with next to nothing in return from him. The Horn fight was far tougher/rougher and intense for Maanny. To say otherwise is plain ridiculous.

Just go look up one stat, punches thrown in several previous Manny fights, and Saturday's was comparable to many of them.

Now, throw in roughness and toughness and flow and action and IMO Saturday's fight was right up there in terms of busyness and intensity.

Not at all saying that Saturday's fight was as good a display or anything, juts that from a bruising and intensity point of view it was right up there with some of Manny's wars.

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 2:46pm

walshb wrote: »

How so?

Check the activity levels and the punches thrown and the overall intensity and flow....it was a mad busy fight, as well as mad rough and tough.

Unless you have several examples that clearly demonstrate that it was far from his busiest...

Punch stats are two guys pressing a button looking into the blinding Australian sun. I can't for the life of me believe those stats after watching that fight. Manny fought in spurts and looked by far the less active fighter to me. Hardly threw a jab or shot to the body all fight long.

Against bigger guys like Margarito and clottey Pacquaio got to them with punches they couldn't see, setting them up with quick feet and punches from all angles. I saw no quick combinations, no use of angles and footspeed which has declined big time in that fight.

walshb · 03-07-2017 2:49pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Punch stats are two guys pressing a button looking into the blinding Australian sun. I can't for the life of me believe those stats after watching that fight. Manny fought in spurts and looked by far the less active fighter to me. Hardly threw a jab or shot to the body all fight long.

Against bigger guys like Margarito and clottey Pacquaio got to them with punches they couldn't see, setting them up with quick feet and punches from all angles. I saw no quick combinations, no use of angles and footspeed which has declined big time in that fight.

I am not taking only about punch stats alone

Nor am I saying that the performance was as good as other performances.

Manny beat up on the Margarito's and Clottey's and Cotto's. It was a whole lot easier on his body than what happened on Saturday.

Saturday Manny was in a bloody war. He lost it. The fights you are mentioning he was a clear winner having his own way for the night(s)

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 3:39pm

walshb wrote: »

Saturday Manny was in a bloody war. He lost it. The fights you are mentioning he was a clear winner having his own way for the night(s)

Aye, having his own way because he fought better in those fights and was in his prime with tremendous use of angles and footwork. Honestly, rewatch the Margarito fight. Absolutely no way was Manny busier against Horn. He hardly threw a combination on Saturday night. Against Margarito he has so much more variety in his punches. Throws to the body to open it up to the head. There is no comparison to the Manny of today and the one we saw that night. It's not even an argument.

https://youtu.be/kXq6QA89ZqE

walshb · 03-07-2017 3:48pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Aye, having his own way because he fought better in those fights and was in his prime with tremendous use of angles and footwork. Honestly, rewatch the Margarito fight. Absolutely no way was Manny busier against Horn. He hardly threw a combination on Saturday night. Against Margarito he has so much more variety in his punches. Throws to the body to open it up to the head. There is no comparison to the Manny of today and the one we saw that night. It's not even an argument.

https://youtu.be/kXq6QA89ZqE

Yes, but Margarito was a complete punchbag, and it was a completely one sided beat-down. And more to do with Margarito being a punch bag than Manny being exceptional....

Anyway, it's irrelevant. I am not discussing performance or opponent level/ranking/capability

My point was clear: The fight the other night was more busy in the sense of being rougher and tougher and more bruising than many of Manny's previous fights, including Margarito and Clottey and Cotto, who were all one sided beat-downs.

The only area where Manny was busier in the Margarito fight was letting his hands go against a plodding stationary punchbag.

Any other area and the Horn fight was far more busy/intense/rough and tough.

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 3:56pm

walshb wrote: »

Yes, but Margarito was a complete punchbag, and it was a completely one sided beat-down. And more to do with Margarito being a punch bag than Manny being exceptional....

Anyway, it's irrelevant. I am not discussing performance or opponent level/ranking/capability

My point was clear: The fight the other night was more busy in the sense of being rougher and tougher and more bruising than many of Manny's previous fights, including Margarito and Clottey and Cotto, who were all one sided beat-downs.

Manny was exceptional that night. He made Margarito gun-shy through his movement and combinations. There was no sign of that Saturday night.

It was rougher in the way that Horn put him in a headlock or two but I don't see the relevance in that. The point is Manny isn't the same fighter as he was before. A prime Manny lights Horn up from the first bell. I have very little doubt about that fact.

walshb · 03-07-2017 4:02pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Manny was exceptional that night. He made Margarito gun-shy through his movement and combinations. There was no sign of that Saturday night.

.

He was exceptional, and made to look more so because the man in front of him was a human punchbag. Margarito was that bad, and Mosley was a big reason why.

Put it this way, had the Manny from the Margarito fight been in the ring Saturday, would you see the same beat down?

You would not, because Horn is a completely different kind of opponent.

Now, not saying Manny would not beat him, or look more convincing than he was on Saturday, just that he would not at all be as dominating in terms of a beat down.

This is basic boxing as regards styles. Manny looking like an enigma against punchbags like Clottey and Margarito, and looking a lot less against a Bradley and JMM

Now, Horn is a bigger and stronger type fighter than Bradley and JMM, both of whom were more composed, steady and predictable for Manny, yet they still gave Manny problems. Horn was just a bruising awkward messy and disjointed dude who could box a bit.

For the record, I am not saying Horn is a better boxer-fighter than Bradely or JMM, just pointing out their stylistic and physical differences, and how that plays in a Manny fight. Horn was physically and stylistically a more difficult opponent, and IMO always would be, unless Manny can score a one punch KO on him.

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 4:17pm

walshb wrote: »

He was exceptional, and made to look more so because the man in front of him was a human punchbag. Margarito was that bad, and Mosley was a big reason why.

Put it this way, had the Manny from the Margarito fight been in the ring Saturday, would you see the same beat down?

You would not, because Horn is a completely different kind of opponent.

Now, not saying Manny would not beat him, or look more convincing than he was on Saturday, just that he would not at all be as dominating in terms of a beat down.

This is basis boxing as regards styles. Manny looking like an enigma against punchbags like Clottey and Margarito, and looking a lot less against a Bradley and JMM

Now, Horn is a bigger and stronger type fighter than Bradley and JMM, both of whom were more composed, steady and predictable for Manny, yet they still gave Manny problems. Horn was just a bruising awkward messy and disjointed dude who could box a bit.

For the record, I am not saying Horn is a better boxer-fighter than Bradely or JMM, just pointing out their stylistic and physical differences, and how that lays in a Manny fight.

You're taking my point too literally. I'm talking about the Pacquiao back then compared to now. Not how Margarito or Horn compare etc. Forget how Margarito was back then and focus on Pacquiao's feet and combinations and power. He was a different animal back then no matter who the opponent was.

You said earlier that Pacquiao looked no better before than he did on Saturday night. Yet now you are conceding he may have made easier work of Horn back then. He definitely would've. He would've dominated and stopped Horn back then. That's all I'm saying. He has declined.

walshb · 03-07-2017 4:22pm

Morrison J wrote: »

You're taking my point too literally. I'm talking about the Pacquiao back then compared to now. Not how Margarito or Horn compare etc. Forget how Margarito was back then and focus on Pacquiao's feet and combinations and power. He was a different animal back then no matter who the opponent was.

You said earlier that Pacquiao looked no better before than he did on Saturday night. Yet now you are conceding he may have made easier work of Horn back then. He definitely would've. He would've dominated and stopped Horn back then. That's all I'm saying. He has declined.

I think you are getting a bit lost here...

I agree than Manny's feet looked better against Margaritio, but to dismiss why is important? Margarito was a plodding stationary punchbag who shuffled his way through the fight. He allowed Manny so much time to do what he wanted..

Horn was a completely different animal. Kind of all over the place and disorganised and disjointed etc.

You saying that Manny in 2010 would have dominated and stopped Horn back in 2010 is based off him looking exceptional against a punchbag. It cannot work like this....Horn would not have been plodding and shuffling around like Margarito, so Manny would not be able to do what he did.

I shouldn't have to be pointing this out, It is basics regarding styles and opponents etc.

Same way Manny back in 2011 and 2012 didn't look to be the same animal he was when meeting Mosely and JMM. Because JMM and Mosley are not Margarito.

walshb · 03-07-2017 4:24pm

Morrison J wrote: »

He was a different animal back then no matter who the opponent was.

But the opponent is very important in the equation.

Ok, let us agree/say that he was a different animal back then, you still cannot think that he dominates and beats up Horn in a similar fashion to the Margarito beat down?

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 4:28pm

walshb wrote: »

I shouldn't have to be pointing this out, It is basics regarding styles and opponents etc.

walshb in being condescending shocker...

walshb · 03-07-2017 4:30pm

Morrison J wrote: »

walshb in being condescending shocker...

But true. I shouldn't have to point it out.

Using opponent A to say how one does against opponent B and C.......

It can bite you on the ar&e...

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 4:34pm

OK so you admit Manny's feet looked better in the Margarito days.

I have stated I thought Manny's feet looked terrible on Saturday. I believe in his prime with his quick feet he shifts on Horn coming in and counters him with a big shot and hurts him. He also put more power into his shots back then through his legs. Horn is one of the most open defensively world champs I've seen in recent memory coming in. Hands by his side etc.

Thus, I'm confident a prime Manny with his elite footwork, good power and quick combinations knocks out the overmatched Jeff Horn.

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 4:38pm

walshb wrote: »

But true. I shouldn't have to point it out.

Using opponent A to say how one does against opponent B and C.......

It can bite you on the ar&e...

I have said to look at Manny in those fights yet you are only willing to concentrate on Margarito. You wouldn't have to point it out if you listened to my point in the first place.

And there's never a good reason for being condescending.

walshb · 03-07-2017 4:45pm

Morrison J wrote: »

OK so you admit Manny's feet looked better in the Margarito days.

I have stated I thought Manny's feet looked terrible on Saturday. I believe in his prime with his quick feet he shifts on Horn coming in and counters him with a big shot and hurts him. He also put more power into his shots back then through his legs. Horn is one of the most open defensively world champs I've seen in recent memory coming in. Hands by his side etc.

Thus, I'm confident a prime Manny with his elite footwork, good power and quick combinations knocks out the overmatched Jeff Horn.

I said let's agree that his feet looked better.

Let's not make out that his feet the other night were gone or useless. They were not....

And you cannot escape the fact that what you saw in 2010 compared to what you saw in 2017 can be dismissed as regards the opponent. If Horn stood there and was a punchbag it's likely nobody would comment on any difference between 2010 and 2017 as regards feet and movement.

As regards knocking out Horn. Yes, he could, as he could the other night had he landed a perfect shot. Manny is not really a one punch KO man. He relies on cumulative punching, and against someone like Horn he would likely miss more than he'd land.....

So, barring a one punch KO, which I already mentioned in other posts, he is in for a tough night.

I don[t care how good some fighters are on paper, sometimes they can come up against opponents who are just stylistically bad for them. I believe Horn to be one of those for a fighter like Manny.

A Thurman knocks Horn out clean and cold, early!

walshb · 03-07-2017 4:47pm

Morrison J wrote: »

And there's never a good reason for being condescending.

I never said there was. I simply said my post was true. If you took me pointing out the obvious as condescending, so be it. You are well able to give and take.

walshb · 03-07-2017 4:48pm

Morrison J wrote: »

I have said to look at Manny in those fights yet you are only willing to concentrate on Margarito. You wouldn't have to point it out if you listened to my point in the first place.
.

Where did I only concentrate on Margarito? I also mentioned Clottey, who would you believe, was even more a plodding punchbag than Margarito.

What other opponents or fights did you reference? I mentioned Cotto too...

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 5:10pm

walshb wrote: »

I said let's agree that his feet looked better.

Let's not make out that his feet the other night were gone or useless. They were not....

And you cannot escape the fact that what you saw in 2010 compared to what you saw in 2017 can be dismissed as regards the opponent. If Horn stood there and was a punchbag it's likely nobody would comment on any difference between 2010 and 2017 as regards feet and movement.

As regards knocking out Horn. Yes, he could, as he could the other night had he landed a perfect shot. Manny is not really a one punch KO man. He relies on cumulative punching, and against someone like Horn he would likely miss more than he'd land.....

So, barring a one punch KO, which I already mentioned in other posts, he is in for a tough night.

I don[t care how good some fighters are on paper, sometimes they can come up against opponents who are just stylistically bad for them. I believe Horn to be one of those for a fighter like Manny.

A Thurman knocks Horn out clean and cold, early!

His feet aren't what they used to be and it cost him that fight. Horn dominated the ring on Saturday and put Pacquiao on the back foot. In his prime Manny uses his feet to generate punches from different angles and make his opponent less willing to come forward and throw. Prime Manny could've made Horn into a punchbag if the fight went long enough which I doubt it would have.

There's a reason it's taken till he's 38 for someone to proper put the pressure on him. His legs aren't what they used to be. Horn is a terrible matchup for a 38 year old with declining legs and power. A prime Hatton would've beaten the Manny we saw on Saturday too.

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 5:15pm

walshb wrote: »

Where did I only concentrate on Margarito? I also mentioned Clottey, who would you believe, was even more a plodding punchbag than Margarito.

What other opponents or fights did you reference? I mentioned Cotto too...

You aren't understanding what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying concentrate more on Manny and not his opponents. You keep talking about Margarito instead of Manny. There is zero reason Manny couldn't throw to the body on Saturday especially as Horn started to gas. Manny hardly threw a body shot in the 9th when he had Horn hurt. One good one would've probably finished him. Prime Manny puts a combination together going to the body and gets him out of there. We're watching a diminished fighter, past his best days. Yes Horn was more awkward but a prime Manny still disposes of him. A faded one nearly did.

walshb · 03-07-2017 5:24pm

Morrison J wrote: »

You aren't understanding what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying concentrate more on Manny and not his opponents. You keep talking about Margarito instead of Manny. There is zero reason Manny couldn't throw to the body on Saturday especially as Horn started to gas. Manny hardly threw a body shot in the 9th when he had Horn hurt. One good one would've probably finished him. Prime Manny puts a combination together going to the body and gets him out of there. We're watching a diminished fighter, past his best days. Yes Horn was more awkward but a prime Manny still disposes of him. A faded one nearly did.

I already addressed Manny in those fights....

I explained that a few times. I understand that you are not willing to look at why Manny looked as he did.

Your issue is you are kind of dismissing what was in front of Manny in those fights. That's the problem.

May as well have Manny stand in front of a punchbag and say "look how much better he is here than against that damn awful and awkward and strong and disjointed and relentless and disorganized looking Jeff Horn. If Only Jeff would stand still and allow Manny time and space to do as he pleases."

walshb · 03-07-2017 5:26pm

Morrison J wrote: »

A prime Hatton would've beaten the Manny we saw on Saturday too.

Possibly. Providing he didn't get whacked with another "hail Mary."

That shot would have knocked any Hatton out, and Hatton was always there to be hit, prime Hatton or not.

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 5:36pm

walshb wrote: »

I already addressed Manny in those fights....

I explained that a few times. I understand that you are not willing to look at why Manny looked as he did.

Your issue is you are kind of dismissing what was in front of Manny in those fights. That's the problem.

May as well have Manny stand in front of a punchbag and say "look how much better he is here than against that damn awful and awkward and strong and disjointed and relentless and disorganized looking Jeff Horn. If Only Jeff would stand still and allow Manny time and space to do as he pleases."

I have said that I think a prime Pacquiao makes Jeff Horn look like a punchbag. I have dealt with that issue.

If prime Pacquiao fights Horn..

Horn comes out like a man possessed coming in a straight line, with his hands by his side, completely vulnerable, towards Manny (just like he did on Saturday). Manny uses his quick feet and shifts to his side, delivers a combination on Horn and hurts him.

This either repeats itself until Horn gets knocked out or Horn retreats and turns into a punchbag, unwilling to come forward.

Either way, Manny makes relatively easy work of him.

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 5:37pm

walshb wrote: »

Possibly. Providing he didn't get whacked with another "hail Mary."

That shot would have knocked any Hatton out, and Hatton was always there to be hit, prime Hatton or not.

Coming from the man who doesn't have any one punch power and all...

walshb · 03-07-2017 5:44pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Coming from the man who doesn't have any one punch power and all...

Is not really known as one punch KO arist, Hatton KO aside.

Morrison J · 03-07-2017 5:46pm

walshb wrote: »

Is not really known as one punch KO arist, Hatton KO aside.

No but in his prime still a very big puncher. Fought a lot of fighters with very good chins too.

walshb · 04-07-2017 11:00am

Morrison J wrote: »

No but in his prime still a very big puncher. Fought a lot of fighters with very good chins too.

I would more label a damaging-deliberate puncher. I know, semantics, but big puncher isn't what I label him.

He does not have that kind of natural effortless power-force that flows. His power is deliberate and thrown with real intent and speed. In other words, he tries that bit more with his hard shots.

A Julian Jackson or Gerald McClellan.....they are/were big punchers

Alexis Arguello from the lower weights was a big puncher.

Burial. · 04-07-2017 11:27am

For f*ck sake anyone would appear pillow fisted compared to Jackson, Arguello and G Man. Absolute nonsense even mentioning their names.

walshb · 04-07-2017 11:33am

Burial. wrote: »

For f*ck sake anyone would appear pillow fisted compared to Jackson, Arguello and G Man. Absolute nonsense even mentioning their names.

Chill out, kiid....

Like I said, just semantics...

Nobody saying Manny is pillow fisted. Very good puncher.

walshb · 04-07-2017 11:36am

If asked to describe Manny as a puncher I would use damaging as the descriptive word, not big...

I have always reserved that word for a certain kind of puncher.

No biggie

hbhook · 04-07-2017 1:49pm

People say he didn't train properly. Pac had to deny that beforehand. Maybe he did have a cold. Horn was underestimated by everyone though and awkward but bottom line is Manny's gettin old. He should take the rematch, and maybe a third in his home country as a farewell. I agree that 2010 Pac chews up Horn.

HigginsJ · 06-07-2017 1:59pm

Jeez Pacquiao is being a pretty bad loser. He had asked the WBO to investigate the referee and judges, the WBO have said no. He is now saying "I felt I was set up"

I haven't seen the fight myself but reading on here the result seems fair enough (argue rounds either way but nothing outrageous)

Very odd behaviour from Pacquiao.

walshb · 06-07-2017 2:04pm

HigginsJ wrote: »

Jeez Pacquiao is being a pretty bad loser. He had asked the WBO to investigate the referee and judges, the WBO have said no. He is now saying "I felt I was set up"

I haven't seen the fight myself but reading on here the result seems fair enough (argue rounds either way but nothing outrageous)

Very odd behaviour from Pacquiao.

A bit of a u turn from him as well....

Ridiculous stuff really.

He lost to a relative nobody.

hbhook · 06-07-2017 3:55pm

I didn't see the interviews but he's complaining more about the 117-111 card. Arum's post fight comments is more interesting. He's the only winner in this...apart from JH.

walshb · 06-07-2017 3:59pm

hbhook wrote: »

I didn't see the interviews but he's complaining more about the 117-111 card. Arum's post fight comments is more interesting. He's the only winner in this...apart from JH.

That makes it more ridiculous. A rd here or there and it's 116-112 or 115-113....would that make him happy?

Plenty of rds that you could argue for Manny, as well as arguing a win for Manny.

hbhook · 06-07-2017 4:20pm

Tell that to Pac. People are going so far as to say that because his contract with Top Rank is officially up, Bob paid the judges...

Morrison J · 06-07-2017 4:26pm

hbhook wrote: »

Tell that to Pac. People are going so far as to say that because his contract with Top Rank is officially up, Bob paid the judges...

Find that hard to believe when the mega money Crawford fight was clearly being built. Top Rank have lost that now.

walshb · 06-07-2017 4:37pm

hbhook wrote: »

Tell that to Pac. People are going so far as to say that because his contract with Top Rank is officially up, Bob paid the judges...

Then he should have knocked Horn out!

hbhook · 06-07-2017 4:40pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Find that hard to believe when the mega money Crawford fight was clearly being built. Top Rank have lost that now.

Well if they want to set that match up with a belt on the line then yeah. The rematch for Pac might be just as tough though and then there might be a rubbermatch in the Philippines which I think would be a pretty decent way to call it a day.
Am I the only one who thinks that Crawford might not find it as easy against as some may believe...if they were to fight next that is? It's not like his competition so far has been stellar. I'm a fan by the way.

walshb · 06-07-2017 4:50pm

They could still make and sell the Crawford fight as huge

Crawford still has not elite signature win on his ledger!

Morrison J · 06-07-2017 4:55pm

It's nowhere near as big as it would've been if Manny had beaten Horn. Everyone has seen Manny is past his prime now on free to air TV with millions watching.

Not even that pushed to see it now myself. I think Crawford ruins him. Has every advantage in the fight.

hbhook · 06-07-2017 4:56pm

I can't remember rightly and I can't really be arsed verifying this but apparently Pac was out of contract after Bradley 1...I'm putting it down to a lack of interest and preparation. Happy for Horn though. I think the timing means the Crawford fight will be Spring 2018 and then hopefully retirement for Pacman. Hopefully not a beating into retirement..

walshb · 06-07-2017 5:00pm

Morrison J wrote: »

It's nowhere near as big as it would've been if Manny had beaten Horn. Everyone has seen Manny is past his prime now on free to air TV with millions watching.

Not even that pushed to see it now myself. I think Crawford ruins him. Has every advantage in the fight.

It would still be a big fight, and bigger than anything Crawford has been involved with to date.

It's not like Manny got well beaten. He was in the fight all the way.

I don't think one can really say: "this is how much the fight does or makes had Manny not been beaten vs. this is how much it will do now since he was beaten."

Let's say Manny got the verdict the other night.....would the Crawford fight still be a kind of let down?

Morrison J · 06-07-2017 5:09pm

walshb wrote: »

It would still be a big fight, and bigger than anything Crawford has been involved with to date.

It's not like Manny got well beaten. He was in the fight all the way.

I don't think one can really say: "this is how much the fight does or makes had Manny not been beaten vs. this is how much it will do now since he was beaten."

Let's say Manny got the verdict the other night.....would the Crawford fight still be a kind of let down?

Not doubting it's still a big fight at all just it's lost a lot of its shine. It could've been massive if Manny won well against Horn.

It's gone from a generally perceived 50/50 fight to about a 90/10 Crawford fight. That's only gonna get more extreme when Crawford dominates Indongo.

walshb · 06-07-2017 5:18pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Not doubting it's still a big fight at all just it's lost a lot of its shine. It could've been massive if Manny won well against Horn.

It's gone from a generally perceived 50/50 fight to about a 90/10 Crawford fight. That's only gonna get more extreme when Crawford dominates Indongo.

I wouldn't buy into that big swing from 50-50 to 90-10....

Like we have debated tirelessly, styles need to be factored. Horn being all over the shop was not going to make an older Manny (who I agree has lost a step or two, but not past it in the extreme sense) seem a little off. As well as Manny having next to no inside game, and a lot of the fight was up close...

Crawford will allow Manny more time to figure out his moves. Crawford is not a frenetic windmill. I think that will suit Manny a whole lot more.

I will say it now. If they fight, barring a KO, Manny will not be in as physically draining and tough and rough a fight as the Horn fight. And I think clearly so.

Morrison J · 06-07-2017 5:28pm

walshb wrote: »

I wouldn't buy into that big swing from 50-50 to 90-10....

Like we have debated tirelessly, styles need to be factored. Horn being all over the shop was not going to make an older Manny (who I agree has lost a step or two, but not past it in the extreme sense) seem a little off. As well as Manny having next to no inside game, and a lot of the fight was up close...

Crawford will allow Manny more time to figure out his moves. Crawford is not a frenetic windmill. I think that will suit Manny a whole lot more.

I will say it now. If they fight, barring a KO, Manny will not be in as physically draining and tough and rough a fight as the Horn fight. And I think clearly so.

I think 90% of people would pick Crawford to win now where as before it was much closer.

Not as physically tough as in Crawford won't be putting him in headlocks etc but he'll be hit with more consistent accurate shots and hurt a lot more.

What does 2017 Manny do better than Crawford? I can't think of one thing in his favour.

hbhook · 06-07-2017 6:19pm

Morrison J wrote: »

I think 90% of people would pick Crawford to win now where as before it was much closer.

Not as physically tough as in Crawford won't be putting him in headlocks etc but he'll be hit with more consistent accurate shots and hurt a lot more.

What does 2017 Manny do better than Crawford? I can't think of one thing in his favour.

Hmmm good question. I'd pick Crawford as well but I think Pac's unusal style/craft troubles him the way Horn troubled Pac if you know what I mean. Horn's movement seemed unpredictable to me. A keyed-in Pacquiao offers a lot more than the John Molina's and Felix Diaz' of the world. I think it would really have to be soon though. As in this year.
I'm not sure either if a win (even a stoppage) means a whole lot more to anyone including Crawford the longer it goes on. Like, something really far off...2019

walshb · 06-07-2017 6:28pm

Morrison J wrote: »

I think 90% of people would pick Crawford to win now where as before it was much closer.

Not as physically tough as in Crawford won't be putting him in headlocks etc but he'll be hit with more consistent accurate shots and hurt a lot more.

What does 2017 Manny do better than Crawford? I can't think of one thing in his favour.

I was more thinking/arguing of it as chances wise not people's picks.

90 percent chance winning to me is off. It's 60/40 in Crawford's favour I'd say.

No issue with 90/100 people picking Crawford to win..

HigginsJ · 08-07-2017 9:02pm

So the WBO are going to have 5 anonymous judges re-score the fight. Even if they come back and say Pacquiao should have won nothing will change in terms of belt or result. The WBO have said Pacquiao will need to use his rematch clause if he wants to win back the title.

Why bother with this if nothing will change?

Also I'd imagine scoring a fight ringside & scoring a fight on TV would be somewhat different? Would they also need these 5 judges to have not seen the fight already to avoid any bias based on their 1st unnofficial viewing?

Very odd.

Pacquiao/Conlan/Povetkin/Shambles of a Sky Card Thread

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