Are you paternal?

fits

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Eh feck off. I'm struggling enough with this. I didn't come here for a lecture on time running out. I am well aware. The thing is I just can't have a child for that reason alone. I tend to flip flop a bit when I see babies and pregnant women. Sometimes I'm filled with a wistful wondering and other times absolute fear"

I was terrified too. And now that I've had my twins I wish I had started sooner and could have more. But I was extremely lucky to have the boys. People with stats as bad as mine were last year are turned away from some ivf clinics cos we bring down their success percentages.

I think it is probably difficult having children if you had a bad relationship with your own parents though.

Wibbs

fits wrote: »

I think it is probably difficult having children if you had a bad relationship with your own parents though.

Jaysus, that's some presumption.

fits

fits wrote: »

I was terrified too. And now that I've had my twins I wish I had started sooner and could have more. But I was extremely lucky to have the boys. People with stats as bad as mine were last year are turned away from some ivf clinics cos we bring down their success percentages.

I think it is probably difficult having children if you had a bad relationship with your own parents though.

It's lovely that it worked out for you fits I imagine the pain of hoping and trying for a baby to be tremendous.

The relationship we have with our parents is the foundation upon which all others are built. Unfortunately for some it is a very precarious one. Yet that's not to say it causes a blight on the rest of your life.

fits

Wibbs wrote: »

Jaysus, that's some presumption.

Not sure why you are taking issue with this. I only say it as having children casts your relationship with your own parents in a completely new light. And That could be difficult to deal with for some people.

Dial Hard

Pawwed Rig wrote:

Has anyone been on yet to say that they have kids and hate it or resent that they do not have the lack of responsibility anymore?

My mother in law was very open about saying that, while she loves her three children, if she had had the choices that the current generation have, she wouldn't have had children. You very, very rarely hear those voices, though. Saying you regret having children is one of the last taboos, particularly for women.

Sleepy wrote:

I almost feel that productive members of society should be persuaded to feel duty-bound to procreate.

Jesus. That's a bit too Handmaid's Tale-y for my blood.

CramCycle

Have two, love them too bits and would not change a thing but...

They were not planned and I would not recommend having children to anyone.

Having children is alot like smoking. If you've started, stop. If you haven't, don't start.

I cannot understand the want, if you want kids, help out your mates who have them for an hour here or there, and then enjoy the rest of your time.

Professor Moriarty

Sleepy wrote: »

Honestly, I see so many posts on boards.ie or in social media in general from predominantly middle class people choosing to live "child free" and women who believe they'll have no problems putting off having children until the latter half of their 30's / early 40's, I'm beginning to worry about the future.

The average age of first time parents posted by Permabear earlier are in their early 30's. Given that there are more teenagers / early twenties from the underclasses having unplanned kids (or kids planned to help the parent(s) "get a council house"), that means that in the middle class, those numbers are probably more towards the late 30's / early 40's.

I almost feel that productive members of society should be persuaded to feel duty-bound to procreate, or at the least incentivised in some manner that means they don't feel like they can't afford to do so (or do so to the extent that they mght otherwise). Making childcare tax deductable or increasing the tax credits available to a parent whose partner stays at home with the kids would be positive steps in this regard imo.

The parasitic class are outbreeding the productive to a large degree. Think of any of the families you know with 4 or more children: are they more likely to be dependent on the state or are they being supported by the labours of the parents? Are mothers in their late teens more likely to have come from a background where they'd be expected to go on to 3rd level education or where they're expected to sign on as soon as they leave school?

I'm speaking in terms of general trends btw. I'm well aware of many unemployed single parents or couples who've produced wonderful off-spring who make positive contributions to society. The fact remains however that the socio-economic background of one's parents remain the most likely indicator of success.

Current social policy incentivises the section of society that is least likely to have productive offspring to do so, while actively discouraging those most likely to raise productive offspring from reproducing at all. It seems like a recipe for disaster to me tbh. Especially in a country with a pension crisis looming.

Eugenics anyone?

Sleepy

Dial Hard wrote: »

Jesus. That's a bit too Handmaid's Tale-y for my blood.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Eugenics anyone?

Was waiting for these responses tbh. People often react badly to reality.

Every study that's ever been conducted on the topic shows that one of the key determining factors (if not the key determining factor) of a child growing into a successful adult is their socio-economic background.

Our current social welfare and taxation system incentivises those who can't or won't support themselves to have children while punishing those who earn a living and pay for the former group.

I'm not suggesting forced sterilisation, a one child policy, the removal of the social welfare state or anything punitive whatsover. Simply stating that any country that's facing such a pension crisis as we are should be pursuing policies that seek to encourage, rather than disincentivise, the middle classes to procreate.

Dial Hard

Dial Hard wrote: »

Saying you regret having children is one of the last taboos, particularly for women.

I completely agree with this. It is rarely if ever spoken about. In much the same way as "I don't have a favourite child" people simply don't go there.

farmchoice

Deleted User wrote: »

"the human experience is incomplete in a fundamental way if you dont ever have children and you dont understand it until you do it, being an involved aunt or uncle is no where near it"


The above is farmchoice's words and is what I took issue with. The huge assumption that life is missing something without children. In a previous post I wrote how I imagine I would experience huge love if I had a child but you know maybe I wouldn't. Maybe I would be full of resentment and bitterness, a bad parent, selfish, full of regret. I don't believe in one person's way of living trumping another. We all make choices in this life.

it is, its missing children and having children is probably the single biggest like changing event you can experience, for good or ill and from the comments on this board its almost always for good.

i'm not saying having children it the right choice or the right thing to do. Do what you want.

but i stand over my statement that the human experience is incomplete without reproducing.

unlike you i have experienced both so i can say that with an authority that you cant.

and i hate that what i'm saying will upset those who cant have children. infertility is hell and i know because it took my wife and i 4 years of fertility treatment and two rounds of ivf to have our first, amazingly the rest just came by themselves!!

in my adult life i have experienced profound loss and have had loved ones go through cancer treatment etc and i would say that infertility and all that goes with it is right up there with the very worst things that someone can go through.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

I spent my 20s saying I wanted kids, but not til I was in my 30s. Now I'm in my 30s, still don't want them. Its mainly my selfishness. I like the idea of being a father, but I'm not enthralled with the way they seem to take over people's lives. I'm spoiled rotten, I do what I like, when I like. If I want to lie in bed til 11 on a Sunday, I do it. I was talking to a woman I work with who has 3 kids between the ages of about 6 and 12, and she was talking about their upcoming holiday abroad, and the whole holiday is set up around the kids and what they want to do (and rightly so). That doesn't sound like a holiday to me. Selfish, I know, but that's how I feel.

I'm sure my outlook would/will be different if/when I have a child, but I'm definitely in no rush.

farmchoice

farmchoice wrote: »

it is, its missing children and having children is probably the single biggest like changing event you can experience, for good or ill and from the comments on this board its almost always for good.

i'm not saying having children it the right choice or the right thing to do. Do what you want.

but i stand over my statement that the human experience is incomplete without reproducing.

unlike you i have experienced both so i can say that with an authority that you cant.

and i hate that what i'm saying will upset those who cant have children. infertility is hell and i know because it took my wife and i 4 years of fertility treatment and two rounds of ivf to have our first, amazingly the rest just came by themselves!!

in my adult life i have experienced profound loss and have had loved ones go through cancer treatment etc and i would say that infertility and all that goes with it is right up there with the very worst things that someone can go through.

For YOU. YOUR human experience is incomplete. That is something which only you know as like you say you have had a life without children and now with children.

I imagine it is indeed one of the biggest life changing events you can have. Absolutely. What I don't believe is the blanket assumption that being a parent means your life is far more fulfilled and amazing than not being a parent.

CramCycle

farmchoice wrote: »

but i stand over my statement that the human experience is incomplete without reproducing.

Rubbish, it is just different. I have kids and can hand on heart say it really depends on the person. It is certainly not something that would make your life complete.

unlike you i have experienced both so i can say that with an authority that you cant.

Me too, weird that my view is different even though we both have "authority".

and i hate that what i'm saying will upset those who cant have children. infertility is hell and i know because it took my wife and i 4 years of fertility treatment and two rounds of ivf to have our first, amazingly the rest just came by themselves!!

in my adult life i have experienced profound loss and have had loved ones go through cancer treatment etc and i would say that infertility and all that goes with it is right up there with the very worst things that someone can go through.

For you.

mzungu

farmchoice wrote: »

it is, its missing children and having children is probably the single biggest like changing event you can experience, for good or ill and from the comments on this board its almost always for good.

i'm not saying having children it the right choice or the right thing to do. Do what you want.

but i stand over my statement that the human experience is incomplete without reproducing.

All that is your opinion, which does not equate to any kind of truth for anybody else.

farmchoice wrote: »

unlike you i have experienced both so i can say that with an authority that you cant.

and i hate that what i'm saying will upset those who cant have children. infertility is hell and i know because it took my wife and i 4 years of fertility treatment and two rounds of ivf to have our first, amazingly the rest just came by themselves!!

in my adult life i have experienced profound loss and have had loved ones go through cancer treatment etc and i would say that infertility and all that goes with it is right up there with the very worst things that someone can go through.

Sorry, but having a few sprogs out makes you an authority on absolutely nothing. All it means is that you have an opinion, nothing else.

farmchoice

mzungu wrote: »

All that is your opinion, which does not equate to any kind of truth for anybody else.


Sorry, but pushing a few sprogs out makes you an authority on absolutely nothing. All it means is that you have an opinion, nothing else.

well ill say two things to that,
firstly of course its my opinion this is a discussion board where people give their opinions. it seems strange that you would not understand that, i understand that what you wrote is nothing more than your opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

secondly i didn't say anything made me an authority on anything, what i said and its abundantly clear from my post, is that having experienced both of the states of being under discussion it gave me ''more'' authority then someone who only had experienced only one of states of being (under discussion).

we are not discussing the boiling point of water, we are having a discussion on parenthood every thing posted by everyone is just an opinion.

would you like everyone to post '' in my opinion'' before everything they write?

farmchoice

farmchoice wrote: »

well ill say two things to that,
firstly of course its my opinion this is a discussion board where people give their opinions. it seems strange that you would not understand that, i understand that what you wrote is nothing more than your opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

secondly i didn't say anything made me an authority on anything, what i said and its abundantly clear from my post, is that having experienced both of the states of being under discussion it gave me ''more'' authority then someone who only had experienced only one of states of being (under discussion).

we are not discussing the boiling point of water, we are having a discussion on parenthood every thing posted by everyone is just an opinion.

would you like everyone to post '' in my opinion'' before everything they write?

Do you believe that there are lots of people out there who don't have children but who have a rich and love filled life? Or do you believe that without children you cannot have such an existence?

mzungu

farmchoice wrote: »

well ill say two things to that,
firstly of course its my opinion this is a discussion board where people give their opinions. it seems strange that you would not understand that, i understand that what you wrote is nothing more than your opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

Unlike you, I am not claiming my experience to be, to use your own words, "the complete human experience".

farmchoice wrote: »

secondly i didn't say anything made me an authority on anything, what i said and its abundantly clear from my post, is that having experienced both of the states of being under discussion it gave me ''more'' authority then someone who only had experienced only one of states of being (under discussion).

Ah c'mon now, pull the other one. You said:

farmchoice wrote:

but i stand over my statement that the human experience is incomplete without reproducing.

unlike you i have experienced both so i can say that with an authority that you cant.

You can't say anything with authority, or even "more authority".

farmchoice wrote: »

we are not discussing the boiling point of water, we are having a discussion on parenthood every thing posted by everyone is just an opinion.

No arguments there.

farmchoice wrote: »

would you like everyone to post '' in my opinion'' before everything they write?

No need for that, just as long they refrain from things like falsely claiming they are an "authority" on subjective matters, or that they have insight into what the "complete human experience" entails.

farmchoice

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you believe that there are lots of people out there who don't have children but who have a rich and love filled life? Or do you believe that without children you cannot have such an existence?

absoutly of course, wonderful lives full of love and happiness, joy and all the other human emotions.

farmchoice

farmchoice wrote: »

absoutly of course, wonderful lives full of love and happiness, joy and all the other human emotions.

So the human experience can indeed be complete without children?

Don't have kids, don't feel particularly paternal but get the "you'd be a great Dad" speel off many married/coupled up ladies.

Wouldn't rule it out, what will be will be etc.

fits

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

I spent my 20s saying I wanted kids, but not til I was in my 30s. Now I'm in my 30s, still don't want them. Its mainly my selfishness. I like the idea of being a father, but I'm not enthralled with the way they seem to take over people's lives. I'm spoiled rotten, I do what I like, when I like. If I want to lie in bed til 11 on a Sunday, I do it. I was talking to a woman I work with who has 3 kids between the ages of about 6 and 12, and she was talking about their upcoming holiday abroad, and the whole holiday is set up around the kids and what they want to do (and rightly so). That doesn't sound like a holiday to me. Selfish, I know, but that's how I feel.

I haven't had four hours of continuous sleep since December and I'm up around 6:30 most days. We holidayed in ireland this year as anything else is pointless. I haven't been On plane in a year and I had frequent flyer status up until then. It's just different now. I really don't miss my time before much at all. I spent a lot of weekends in my apartment in Finland looking for things to do and I was often bored. Not a problem now lol! No. life is not perfect now but it's pretty good. I've never been poorer, fatter - or happier. My husband is a great father too.

eviltwin

Kids do impact on your life but it's not forever. They do grow up. One of my favourite things about parenthood is my relationship with my 20 yr old. It's completely different to the relationship I have with my 7 yr old and something I really value. It's great to have that closeness on a more equal footing.

andekwarhola

To be honest, even though I wouldn't change the kids for the world, it's natural to sometimes miss the freedom of my life before then. Although, if I'm being completely honest, that life was getting a bit boring, especially as I hit my mid thirties.

Plus a lot of friends were settling down and becoming less and less available.

Now I have time with the kids, which I love, but also The Me time I have is even more enjoyable as it's bookended by the responsibility time.

Just my experience obviously. I don't think how I feel is Right or better than anybody else's.

Dial Hard

farmchoice wrote:

in my adult life i have experienced profound loss and have had loved ones go through cancer treatment etc and i would say that infertility and all that goes with it is right up there with the very worst things that someone can go through.

For people who want children That's the point you seem to be missing. If I found out I was infertile tomorrow it would probably come as a relief, to be honest. It could have saved my marriage, in fact.

Having children changed your life for the better. That's great. For you. But it doesn't entitle or qualify you to be the arbiter of all things child-related for everyone else. I've already mentioned one person who wouldn't have children if she was given the choice again. Another friend's mother happily admits that she loves her husband more than my friend and her brother. You'll dimiss them as outliers but the point remains that not every person feels the same way about being a parent as you do.

Deep Thought

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I couldn't do that and I don't think it's right. Down at the 10 year olds sports day at nearly 50, that's near grandad age. Even maybe seeing your kid married and being in your 60's maybe close to 70. Doesn't sit right.[/quote]

I'll be 55 when my son is 10. What you said is irrelevant, to my son I am his dad, age is of no consequence to him.

Dial Hard

Sleepy wrote:

Was waiting for these responses tbh. People often react badly to reality.

I actually thanked your first post making the point that the more "productive" demographics are having far fewer children than others, I could see and agree with that point, as distasteful as some will no doubt find it.

But saying that we should force them to feel morally obliged to reproduce isn't far off saying we should force the opposite end of the spectrum to stop having children. And that's just a bit too close to social engineering for me.

Hellrazer

My story is completely opposite to a fair few peoples in this thread.
I was lets just say a bit mad in my late teens and the thoughts of having kids neer crossed my mind at all.Then I met "the one" whom Im still married to after 21 years.

Bought a house at 20,married at 21,had our first daughter at 23.

Im 42 now.My oldest is 19,my youngest of 4 is 9.And honestly the best thing Ive ever done was had them young.I still have the energy to keep up with them---the two of us go out to clubs with our 19 year old,Ive recently taken up horse riding with the two younger ones(hate to go off topic but Im sitting here with crutches after breaking a toe on my second lesson).. I suspect that our 19 year old only puts up with us because bank of daddy buys the drink!!!!A poor student in Maynooth couldnt afford to be visiting nightclubs now.

Id hate to have had a teenager in my 50s never mind a younger child.

This is my experience and Im not getting involved in the whole best age to have kids argument.Its worked for us but we really are in the minority.
Plus we have 2 built in baby sitters for when we want to relive our 20`s...and thats becoming more often than not these days!!!!

farmchoice

Deleted User wrote: »

So the human experience can indeed be complete without children?

in my opinion no, you can have all those emotions and experiences but when you have children they are experienced in a different way.

now you could argue that that is the case for loads of things that i have not experienced but in my opinion reproducing is such a fundamental part of the human experience that it trumps everything else in regard to the depth of emotion and feeling that it engenders in us.

this is my opinion based on what has been my experience, no more, but it has influenced my thinking on the subject, and i find that in general its the way that other parents feel.
its also influenced by the nature of human existence. what drives all life on earth is the overwhelming desire of the members of species to reproduce. it tops almost everything else.
humans in general also have an overwhelming desire to nurture and raise their young.

Pawwed Rig

The over riding goal of all animals is to ultimately reproduce. To not have that in your life is, of course, diminishing the human experience. People are quite entitled to make that choice but to think that you get the full human experience while ignoring the primary reason for our existence is absurd.

fits

Agree. But of course you can have a fulfilling life without having children too. .