PPL options

ToniB

Hi all,

I'm looking to get my PPL and obviously want to find the cheapest reasonable option to do that in Ireland as this is where I'll be flying most. I currently live in Naas and was wondering if anyone knew of any decent clubs nearby that I could join?

Also does anyone know if there's a time limit for getting the PPL? I'm not sure I'll have the money to pay for it all in one year or less.

Thanks for any help
Toni

martinsvi

Hi Toni, your best value for money will probably be Trim flying club, currently based in Weston Airport. NFC would be a more popular option at Weston, but they are expensive bunch. Navan airfield isn't exactly too far from Naas either, not entirely sure if they are currently doing PPL training, but you can give them a ring anyway, Kellett's are a lovely bunch of people to deal with. Any other options are just too far away from you.

as for the time limits, the only real limit is the theory exam validity, which is 2 years since your last pass.. basically you need to "lift" your PPL within 2 years from when the last written exam was passed.

Most importantly - before spending any money, do your class 2 medical and remember to enjoy your training!

martinsvi

without knowing what your plans are for your PPL, might be also worth mentioning Dublin Gliding Club who operate out of Gowran Grange, very close to Naas

Stovepipe

Forget the Dublin Gliding Club unless you want to be a dogsbody! Go to the UK or USA if you want a PPL in a year or less. lots of very good organisations in both countries....

martinsvi

Stovepipe wrote: »

Forget the Dublin Gliding Club unless you want to be a dogsbody! Go to the UK or USA if you want a PPL in a year or less. lots of very good organisations in both countries....

as for the UK/USA, read the first comment, I think OP stated quite clearly (s)he wants to train where (s)he wants to fly.. I think that's an excellent mindset and taking finances in perspective, please do not echo the century lasting stereotypes that UK/US is somehow cheaper.. UK is BS by default, US will work out cheaper only if you have cash at hand and you're aiming for an FAA licence/CPL modular..

as for the Dublin Gliding Club, I have never really flown with them, I got involved with some of the people purely by accident, I was flying over Wicklow mountains in a SEP, trying to get to Kilrush - as you know - gliders have the right of way.. I ended up cutting in front of one or two, they were very cool about it, we met on the ground, shared some laughs and quite frankly, I never had the impression that there might be some sort of hierarchy between the people as you're trying to suggest.. If you have any first hand experiences that suggest otherwise, please share, otherwise it might be very damaging to the club that already has very little recognition, and with the technology being what it is - we can assume your post will come up somewhere on top 5 google searches for the club shortly..

Dingle_berry

Like Martin said, cheapest route in Ireland is to join a club that is a registered training facility (listed as such on IAA website).
Doing your medical first isn't essential but it's wise. If you can't pass the medical any money you've spent on lessons is wasted. Medical examiners are listed on the IAA website too. A class 2 is all that's needed for a PPL.
Also, when you start getting lessons have a logbook and log each lesson immediately.

If you're taking it up as a hobby and you're only going to fly locally then learning locally makes sense. You get to know the landmarks etc when you have an instructor with you.
If you're aimed at commercial/transport piloting then getting up to ATPL faster by going to the U.S. is cheaper and faster. You'll get a licence within one Florida summer.

ToniB

Thanks for all the help everyone. I'm just interested in the PPL for a hobby. I hadn't realised there was a club list on the IAA website. I'll search through it. Also good to know about getting a medical.

Thanks

martinsvi

ToniB wrote: »

Thanks for all the help everyone. I'm just interested in the PPL for a hobby. I hadn't realised there was a club list on the IAA website. I'll search through it. Also good to know about getting a medical.

Thanks

IAA website can be a bit of a pain sometimes, you need to know exactly what you're looking for to find it..

here's the list of Registered Training Facilities:
https://www.iaa.ie/general-aviation/flight-training-1/registered-training-facilities

and here's your list of docs:
https://www.iaa.ie/personnel-licensing/aero-medical-section/examiners

smurfjed

You'll get a licence within one Florida summer.

When I was young and naive i went to fly in Florida in the summer, rapidly discovered that Cessna's don't have freon air conditioning and that the propeller didn't supply cool air.... it was an absolute nightmare.
As for the Dublin Gliding Club, long time since i flew there (once or twice), but the concept was that everyone had to help out, so you spent the day moving gliders around the ground helping others as you expected others to help you (general dogsbody). Booking schedules were flexible due to the nature of the flying, so you could spend the whole day there for little flying. The club mentality is therefore different to a powered flying club, i found the place extremely friendly but as my goal was to move onwards with a flying career, gliding wasn't for me.

ned14

As someone who just recently completed my PPL as a hobby only... I completed it over 3 years whenever I had some cash available to make up a few more hours. Joined a club, got to know all the members, got involved in the club activities and played my part to help the club develop and grow. Overall a great experience.
Here are the main things to be conscious of during your training, echoing some go the above;
Get your medical early into training if not before starting.
Plan your ground school and exams around half way through training. At that point, you already have a good grasp of the fundamentals of what you're doing and what to be aware of. It then allows you to put your knowledge into practice in the second half of your training. Be aware of ground school availability and exam dates which aren't very frequent.

martinsvi

smurfjed wrote: »

As for the Dublin Gliding Club, long time since i flew there (once or twice), but the concept was that everyone had to help out, so you spent the day moving gliders around the ground helping others as you expected others to help you (general dogsbody). Booking schedules were flexible due to the nature of the flying, so you could spend the whole day there for little flying. The club mentality is therefore different to a powered flying club, i found the place extremely friendly but as my goal was to move onwards with a flying career, gliding wasn't for me.

I don't think much has changed in this regard, people still help each other out, I'm not sure if dogsbody is the correct term to use in this regard. As for the flying, probably a lot of it depends on the day - if the lift is there, you might fly for hours, if it's not - do a circuit and back you go pushing gliders..

on another note - would also like to mention microlights. If there's no plan to fly commercially, that's the way to go in my opinion..

Stovepipe

I did my PPL in the US, Texas to be exact, in 1991, after having done the rounds in Ireland; Weston on Rallyes, tried the DGC and a few other places. At the Gliding Club, I quickly discovered a full Saturday and a full Sunday of hauling and pushing acting as dogsbody, unpaid didn't even get me a basic intro flight, despite me wanting to give them money to teach me to fly. That was a ratio I wasn't prepared to sustain,so, I took myself away from there. I went to Weston and found that paying for flight training got me 45 minutes of being shouted at by angry instructors in tatty old Rallyes with no headsets. I was already being shouted at for free in the Air Corps and the concept of flying behind a roaring Continental with no headset for what seemed like endless hours didn't appeal to me. I did 5.5 hrs on the Rallyes before quitting Weston. After trying some of the other schools, I elected to follow a steady stream of friends who were getting the US PPL and coming back and converting and went to Texas, having sat and completed the Irish Writtens before I went. All of had pretty much the same story: dire warnings that the American license was ****e, their tuition substandard, their aircraft crap and we wouldn't be able to navigate back home, etc ,etc...In the US, we found a large fleet of well-kept Cessnas in the school, good instructors, good weather and a brisk and open attitude to flying and we had some great adventures and it was a real pleasure to fly there. I came home with my US PPL, joined a Club in Weston and did a few hours conversion. i soon found that none of the dire warnings were true; American tuition was excellent, both for ground school and flight; the aircraft were always available and mostly worked as advertised; the navigation tuition was good and the experience of navving in Texas was excellent and it stood to me when I got home. Texas weather can vary widely and we got plenty of experience in it, as well as instrument flight training that didn't exist on the Irish syllabus. In terms of navigating in Ireland, it wasn't that hard to convert by doing a few navexs with an experienced pilot. Ireland is green, Texas is mostly brown and Ireland is considerably smaller. One navex I did as a student was a three leg 650 mile trip, because Texas is so big. It boggled me because here was a navex that was the equivalent of flying the entire length of Ireland and a bit more.
Subsequently, I did my Commercial ME-IR at a school in Florida that was approved by the IAA in 2000, aiming at a commercial cockpit. To keep current, I did virtually all my renewals in the UK because it was quicker and cheaper than in Irish schools. I never did get the big cockpit job (got a small Commercial job for a year) that I yearned for, despite much effort, but I still keep my Commercial going. I fly Permit Group A aircraft and microlight aircraft as often as possible, as that keeps the cost down, as the cost of hiring from schools here is outrageous....I made a few forays to the Gliding Club, just to see if it was any better than it was in 1991. Sadly, it wasn't. Having travelled fairly widely in GA aircraft around Europe, since 2001, I have discovered that Irish gliding (because of certain cliques and local politics) is a pale shadow of what it could be, compared to any European country and it is thriving anywhere except here, even in Northern Ireland, which has two gliding schools. I have seen gliding in France, Sweden, Hungary, the US and the UK and they are working wonderfully, encouraging the next generation to fly cheaply and get a start in aviation. At least, microlighting is doing well in Ireland, as is Permit aviation, while the GA clubs are finding it tough. I'd encourage any new starter to give every type of flying a shot and try it in as many countries as possible.

martinsvi

Stovepipe, I generally agree to most, if not all of what you said, the only problem is, not everyone has cash at hand to go out and shop for a PPL in the nicest place possible. I got my PPL in Ireland within a year by spending whatever was left from my paycheck at the end of the month, and I can assure you I wasn't the only one doing this. Would you think I would not fancy taking a month or two off from work, going to a nice place abroad and get everything done in a heart beat? Simple reality is, your job comes first. Your family depends on you to be there for them. If you're a young bachelor who's doing well for yourself, or maybe someone with wealthy parents, congratulations, go enjoy your Florida sun.. it doesn't work out that way for many of us, and what I can gather from the OP post, it probably wont work for him/her also..

Prices in US/UK are no longer what they were in 1991, you can get an FAA PPL for around 7-8kEur + flights + accommodation, car rental + whatever else.. some schools advertise cheap PPLs but do read the small print, as many now charge extra for insurance and other misc items.. hardly any savings to be had.. As for the UK, I challenge you to find a cheaper place for PPL than Waterford!

I can assure you that no flight school in Ireland will let you off without a head set and no one will be shouting at you.. Fleet is not what it was in 1991 also - Waterford and Coonagh have really nice and cheap to run Tecnams, AFTA have a couple of G1000 C172's, Navan has a really nice Robin, to name a few..

Stovepipe

good points: I borrowed to pay for my PPL and used up all my leave to go and do it, which obviously not everyone can do....I know full well that the aircraft of today's schools are in better shape; Waterford and Coonagh are great clubs and I have friends in both and have flown the aircraft concerned and would happily do my PPL in either place; AFTA is more geared to Commercial students and is very busy, more luck to them. The OP is in Naas so he could also consider Birr, bit of a journey but worth it; Abbeyshrule to fly Sambas with Ultraflight; Midland Microlight Centre near Urlingford (if they are still going?), or NFC or the Clubs in Weston. Again, availability of instructors during weekdays is patchy unless you use NFC or AFTA. He could always do his ground school before going near the schools or clubs.

CMurphyDZL

Hi Toni!

Colm Murphy here from Ultraflight Flying Club in Abbeyshrule.

We are always open to new members. Costs are €150 per hour (including instructor, fuel, insurance and use of headset!) and students can go for the PPL(Microlight) or the PPL(A).

Class G airspace and nearly 2,000 feet of tarmac runway.

Call into us some, or give me a call on zero eight seven 7111800.

Best of luck.

Colm

smurfjed

Can anyone say that the PPL costs are in the various clubs/airfields?

Dingle_berry

smurfjed wrote: »

Can anyone say that the PPL costs are in the various clubs/airfields?

€150/hr (aircraft, fuel, instructor) seems standard to me with clubs (regardless of aircraft....)

Clubs with access to hard surfaced runways instead of airfields fly more often which roughly correlates with less hours before test?

Those that do groundschool try to batch their students. Otherwise attend NFC or AFTA. So that cost is highly variable.

55 hours at €150/hr = 8250
+ landing fees for touch & go (if app.) ?
+ extra hours ?
Groundschool in NFC (for example) 650+materials
IAA PPL theory exam ?
IAA PPL flight test ?
(Headset if required €800)

Almost certainly between 10 and 15K for a PPL

deaddonkey15

Dingle_berry wrote: »

€150/hr (aircraft, fuel, instructor) seems standard to me with clubs (regardless of aircraft....)

Clubs with access to hard surfaced runways instead of airfields fly more often which roughly correlates with less hours before test?

Those that do groundschool try to batch their students. Otherwise attend NFC or AFTA. So that cost is highly variable.

55 hours at €150/hr = 8250
+ landing fees for touch & go (if app.) ?
+ extra hours ?
Groundschool in NFC (for example) 650+materials
IAA PPL theory exam ?
IAA PPL flight test ?
(Headset if required €800)

Almost certainly between 10 and 15K for a PPL

What?

Irish Steve

That price for the headset is a bit tasty, unless it's for an active noise cancelling headset, if so, then that's about right. I used one for several years when flying light twins, and it did help with the clarity of the audio on both the intercom and R/T, but that's very much a personal preference thing, a "standard" headset will be half that price, or less if you can get one second hand, even allowing for putting new gel covers on it.

Dingle_berry

Irish Steve wrote: »

That price for the headset is a bit tasty, unless it's for an active noise cancelling headset, if so, then that's about right. I used one for several years when flying light twins, and it did help with the clarity of the audio on both the intercom and R/T, but that's very much a personal preference thing, a "standard" headset will be half that price, or less if you can get one second hand, even allowing for putting new gel covers on it.

My mistake! I'm in clubs that has a few headsets for club use left so haven't bought any. Say knock €500 off the €10-15k estimate for a PPL in Ireland.

deaddonkey15

A groundschool really isn't necessary for PPL theory.

phonypony

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

A groundschool really isn't necessary for PPL theory.

Has this not been mandated by EASA?

deaddonkey15

phonypony wrote: »

Has this not been mandated by EASA?

Has it? My mistake then if it has. Certainly wasn't mandatory when I did the exams.

martinsvi

AMC1 FCL.210; FCL.215 says 100 hours theoretical tuition needs to be provided, but some of that might be done via distance learning/slides/videos and other media.

As for the "Clubs with access to hard surfaced runways instead of airfields fly more often which roughly correlates with less hours before test?" - are there statistics for this or is this a guess? I generally agree that grass runways do have some issues but couple of wet weekends don't typically mean your training will drag on. I finished mine on grass within a year with 47 hours in the book and I am by no means an ace..

150 eur an hour probably is true only if you're buying bulk hours from the training provider (generally a risky thing to do, but I did it and got away with it). If you are "pay as you go", 190-200 eur/h is closer to truth. But then again 55 hours is very generous. I'd say most students get it done around 50 mark

to sum it all up, the 10-12k figure is what I would go for

zuutroy

Flight test is €350 and I think the theory exams are €40 each.

Dingle_berry

Guys it was only an estimate!

No stats on airfields and time to completion that I know of but it depends on precipitation, drainage and aircraft. A short light summer shower once a day could make a poorly drained airfield unusable for a C172 but ok for a glider or microlight. Versus a better drained airfield, different rainfall, etc etc etc etc etc.
If you don't get out as often as YOU need to keep your skills current and progress you will need more time. It's personalised to each student. Conditions at an airfield are more likely to prevent you getting out. Surely you don't need assistance from the science of lies to see that?

3 clubs that I know of charge €150/hr that includes aircraft instructor fuel and a landing. Dunno where is charging €190/hr?

martinsvi

Dingle_berry wrote: »

Guys it was only an estimate!

No stats on airfields and time to completion that I know of but it depends on precipitation, drainage and aircraft. A short light summer shower once a day could make a poorly drained airfield unusable for a C172 but ok for a glider or microlight. Versus a better drained airfield, different rainfall, etc etc etc etc etc.
If you don't get out as often as YOU need to keep your skills current and progress you will need more time. It's personalised to each student. Conditions at an airfield are more likely to prevent you getting out. Surely you don't need assistance from the science of lies to see that?

3 clubs that I know of charge €150/hr that includes aircraft instructor fuel and a landing. Dunno where is charging €190/hr?

don't worry, I'm not trying to disprove you or anything...

can you let us know which clubs charge 150ph? Sounds good value

logie101

martinsvi wrote: »

don't worry, I'm not trying to disprove you or anything...

can you let us know which clubs charge 150ph? Sounds good value

Trim Flying Club is one. €150 dual, €130 solo. (Wheels up to wheels down)
Although €35 per month membership fee.

Dingle_berry

martinsvi wrote: »

don't worry, I'm not trying to disprove you or anything...

can you let us know which clubs charge 150ph? Sounds good value

1:

CMurphyDZL wrote: »

Hi Toni!

Colm Murphy here from Ultraflight Flying Club in Abbeyshrule.

We are always open to new members. Costs are €150 per hour (including instructor, fuel, insurance and use of headset!) and students can go for the PPL(Microlight) or the PPL(A).

Class G airspace and nearly 2,000 feet of tarmac runway.

Call into us some, or give me a call on zero eight seven 7111800.

Best of luck.

Colm

2:

logie101 wrote: »

Trim Flying Club is one. €150 dual, €130 solo. (Wheels up to wheels down)
Although €35 per month membership fee.

3:
Wexford membership €25/month

~20% of the aeroplane RTFs listed on the IAA website.
Of course membership fees also apply (and yes they weren't included in that estimate!) but if you fly 4 times a month thats a different cost per lesson than if you fly once a month so its not accurate to tag membership onto lesson fee.

martinsvi

1) that would be a microlight licence
2) I don't think Trim do that cheap anymore, last time I heard it was 180, and I don't even know what Weston charge them for landing fees.. but would be glad to be wrong, logie101, when did you get that price?
3) Wexford's 150 eur ph is on a motorglider, you can't do PPL(A) training on it. Group A aircraft is TB9 for 190 eur ph

logie101

martinsvi wrote: »

1) that would be a microlight licence
2) I don't think Trim do that cheap anymore, last time I heard it was 180, and I don't even know what Weston charge them for landing fees.. but would be glad to be wrong, logie101, when did you get that price?
3) Wexford's 150 eur ph is on a motorglider, you can't do PPL(A) training on it. Group A aircraft is TB9 for 190 eur ph

The prices I stated for Trim Flying Club are correct and the current prices. (I think the Airport Flying Club charge €180 per tach hour).

Yes a €10 landing fee and €5 touch/go fee apply.