Neighbours not paying management fees.

gebbel

Graham wrote: »

I've never heard of the Director/member of an OMC getting a fee. Is this happening somewhere?

It's not common but it happens. And once it's openly discussed and agreed at AGM time, then there is no problem. Smaller Management Companies (complexes with less than 20 units for example) usually don't employ a Managing Agent as it doesn't make sense. All it takes is one or two enthusiastic and conscientious owners to assume the role of Director and carry it out. In such cases it may make sense to sanction a payment of, say, a few hundred euro for their time and effort. But only once agreed at AGM.

caviardreams

LionelNashe wrote: »

There could be a storage space somewhere, but your bin would have the number of your apartment on it, and there would be a lock on it.

That would be a nightmare in a block with 50+ apartments which is very common.

In a well managed development, management fees and the OMC structure actually work quite well. For example, bins for each apartment in my development work out about €70 which is good value imo. There are also economies of scale with things like cleaning, other aspects of maintenance etc. The management agent received a set fee per apartment per year, and has to get three quotes for all services which ensures competitive prices for services, so there is no risk of them adding additional fees etc. or "creaming" off profits like some suggest.

Problems arise with developments when they are badly run, and when owners often don't even understand the set-up/situation, their rights and responsibilities. It really amazes me that so many people seem to buy property in such developments without understanding what they have signed up for - expecting to be able to negotiate discounts or just pay for specific parts of the service charge that they might personally use, rather than the set fee.

Tigerandahalf

caviardreams wrote: »

Problems arise with developments when they are badly run, and when owners often don't even understand the set-up/situation, their rights and responsibilities. It really amazes me that so many people seem to buy property in such developments without understanding what they have signed up for - expecting to be able to negotiate discounts or just pay for specific parts of the service charge that they might personally use, rather than the set fee.

But is that the buyer's fault or the fault of the system that allows people to buy units without having any knowledge of what they are getting into. Let's face it. 10 or 15 years ago nobody had heard of mgt companies and leases. People just assumed you bought a house and owned it.

Someone mentions above about smaller complexes and 1 or 2 people stepping forward as directors. Yet why should these people be expected to do all that work without getting paid for it.

Calling to solicitors to get legal advice, getting quotes off of different contractors, ringing insurance and refuse companies for quotes before renewal. Not to mention any potential problems that might crop up.

Why should ordinary people step up and not be financially compensated for such work?

The hourly rate of pay must be peanuts and then others in the development can complain and live off of their good work.

It is a crazy system.

As for some unit owners not wanting to pay for some services - this is a tricky grey area as not all contracts state what should or shouldn't be paid for. Some units in a development may not use a lift so should they pay for its use? They might need to use it if a repair is being done to the roof of a complex and workmen might need to use the lift - so are they then getting use out of it?

caviardreams

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

But is that the buyer's fault or the fault of the system that allows people to buy units without having any knowledge of what they are getting into. Let's face it. 10 or 15 years ago nobody had heard of mgt companies and leases. People just assumed you bought a house and owned it.

Sorry, but I feel that if you are spending €100k+ on something it's personal responsibility to do your research/due diligence. It is really not that complicated with a couple of hours of research. Nobody would buy a car without knowing if it takes petrol or diesel, or a new phone without some basic research into how it works (e.g. operating system etc.)

ClubDead

I want to make it clear that in MY estate everyone knew what they where getting into before buying. Every property was required to sign a contract, agreeing to pay fees towards the management of the estate and insurance. But some landlords/owners decided not to pay, and have never paid. It has never been a case of "oh I didn't know", its 100% "oh I can get away with not paying".

I knew I would be required to pay fees. I DID my homework. I've paid every year for 10 years. And I've been f €€€€d over by my neighbours. All the homework in the world won't help when people decide to act like selfish a $$holes.

caviardreams

ClubDead wrote: »

I want to make it clear that in MY estate everyone knew what they where getting into before buying. Every property was required to sign a contract, agreeing to pay fees towards the management of the estate and insurance. But some landlords/owners decided not to pay, and have never paid. It has never been a case of "oh I didn't know", its 100% "oh I can get away with not paying".

I knew I would be required to pay fees. I DID my homework. I've paid every year for 10 years. And I've been f €€€€d over by my neighbours. All the homework in the world won't help when people decide to act like selfish a $$holes.

Hi ClubDead - my comments were not aimed at you at all, just a general point, and aimed at those who don't pay because they "claim" they don't understand the system or what they got themselves into - as you say - everyone has to sign a lease/contract agreeing to pay the fees so it is personal responsibility at the end of the day.

Tigerandahalf

ClubDead wrote: »

I want to make it clear that in MY estate everyone knew what they where getting into before buying. Every property was required to sign a contract, agreeing to pay fees towards the management of the estate and insurance. But some landlords/owners decided not to pay, and have never paid. It has never been a case of "oh I didn't know", its 100% "oh I can get away with not paying".

I knew I would be required to pay fees. I DID my homework. I've paid every year for 10 years. And I've been f €€€€d over by my neighbours. All the homework in the world won't help when people decide to act like selfish a $$holes.

They might have signed the contract but I highly doubt that they read the whole contract and even if they did they would need a good solicitor to fully understand what was in it.

Remember this is in an environment where people are being told to buy quickly before prices go up.

Again I go back to my point about people not being fully educated before signing up and the system certainly didn't help people.

No wonder people are pissed then down the line when they are asked to pay for something as they don't fully understand the ins and outs of what they got into.

Also what will happen when another recession hits. Will Joe pay his yearly mgt fee or put food on the table after his pay has been reduced.

It is a system that will cause even more problems down the line.

Paulw

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

As for some unit owners not wanting to pay for some services - this is a tricky grey area as not all contracts state what should or shouldn't be paid for.

It's not a tricky grey area at all. It's actually black and white. You are contracted to pay management fees at the rate described in your contracts. It's not rocket science. You pay the fees, no matter what services you do or don't use. The amount you pay is set in the contracts.

Again, it's ignorance and lack of understanding of what you are contracted to pay for, that people claim they shouldn't pay.

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

They might have signed the contract but I highly doubt that they read the whole contract and even if they did they would need a good solicitor to fully understand what was in it.

It's actually in English. Not too hard to read. I read mine, and still have a copy, which I use from time to time. It doesn't take a law degree, just a basic understanding of english. If people can't read and understand what they are doing, then they shouldn't buy a property.

brendan86

I have a property in the UK management fees £1,600 yearly, what they do over there is if you don't pay its written it contract they go after your mortgage lender and add balance to mortgage. The bank can then send in a receiver and pay the bill if you won't settle it yourself.

This is common practice I think with management fees in UK. I'm surprised they haven't brought it in over here.

AmberGold

I have a couple of RIPS, didnt pay management fees a few years back as was skating on thin ice at the time. The management company reacted quickly with a solicitors letter from one of the main firms in Dublin.

That sorted me out quickly, also had to pay €400 in solicitor fees.

CollyFlower

Can the Management Company give the name and address of the non-paying owners to the paying owners?

Synthol

Why the hell would I want some random ''management company'' manage my property??? I paid for the house and it is my house, I manage it however the hell I want. Who are you to tell me that I need to hand over my hard earned cash for some useless service. I pay my tax and if you are not happy then leave your company out and council will have no choice and will take care of it WITHOUT EXTORTIONING cash from your OWN HOUSE!!!
Some people look for authority in the most ridiculous places.

Markcheese

Synthol wrote:

Why the hell would I want some random ''management company'' manage my property??? I paid for the house and it is my house, I manage it however the hell I want. Who are you to tell me that I need to hand over my hard earned cash for some useless service. I pay my tax and if you are not happy then leave your company out and council will have no choice and will take care of it WITHOUT EXTORTIONING cash from your OWN HOUSE!!! Some people look for authority in the most ridiculous places.

Well don't buy a house in a managed estate then... Simple...

Paulw

Synthol wrote: »

Why the hell would I want some random ''management company'' manage my property???

It's not a "random management company". It's YOUR management company. You are part of the company. It's a company you agree to join and agree to pay annual fees to.

When you buy, you sign a number of documents; contracts. One is agreeing to join the management company and pay your annual fees.

If you don't like that idea, then don't buy in a managed development. Very simple really.

You can't buy and then decide not to pay. That will, eventually, end up in court, with an easy win for the management company, and then legal costs against you.

ClubDead

CollyFlower wrote: »

Can the Management Company give the name and address of the non-paying owners to the paying owners?

Unfortunately no, data protection and all that Not that it would affect the house owners, they proudly stated on social media that they don't and won't pay. Fighting the man in there opinion.

ClubDead

Synthol wrote: »

Why the hell would I want some random ''management company'' manage my property??? I paid for the house and it is my house, I manage it however the hell I want. Who are you to tell me that I need to hand over my hard earned cash for some useless service. I pay my tax and if you are not happy then leave your company out and council will have no choice and will take care of it WITHOUT EXTORTIONING cash from your OWN HOUSE!!!
Some people look for authority in the most ridiculous places.

I agree with what the others. Also as for the service and price charged by the management company I've never had a complaint. They do all the things they are contracted to do. Where they ARE failing is going after non payers.

ClubDead

brendan86 wrote: »

I have a property in the UK management fees £1,600 yearly, what they do over there is if you don't pay its written it contract they go after your mortgage lender and add balance to mortgage. The bank can then send in a receiver and pay the bill if you won't settle it yourself.

This is common practice I think with management fees in UK. I'm surprised they haven't brought it in over here.

Oh how I wish that was used here

Homer

brendan86 wrote: »

I have a property in the UK management fees £1,600 yearly, what they do over there is if you don't pay its written it contract they go after your mortgage lender and add balance to mortgage. The bank can then send in a receiver and pay the bill if you won't settle it yourself.

This is common practice I think with management fees in UK. I'm surprised they haven't brought it in over here.

In effect that is what happens here, in that if you don't pay your management fees, you cannot sell your property so it gets tacked on at the end! I know that doesn't help the current situation of lack of funds to have bins collected, but as someone who pays their fees in a complex where a LOT of owners do not I have comfort at least that they will not be able to get away with it forever!

ClubDead

Homer wrote: »

In effect that is what happens here, in that if you don't pay your management fees, you cannot sell your property so it gets tacked on at the end! I know that doesn't help the current situation of lack of funds to have bins collected, but as someone who pays their fees in a complex where a LOT of owners do not I have comfort at least that they will not be able to get away with it forever!

It is somewhat good to know that they will not get away with it forever. No it doesn't help now but its good to know that there smug "above the rules" attitudes won't be so happy when they get a bill for thousands when they eventually move. :cool:

Markcheese

What happens when a lift or a roof needs to be replaced? Do the guys on the ground floor say not my problem...someone else should fix it Joe...

ClubDead

Markcheese wrote: »

What happens when a lift or a roof needs to be replaced? Do the guys on the ground floor say not my problem...someone else should fix it Joe...

Catch 22....the real kick in the guts....non payers can still claim off block insurance. If my neighbours duplex flooded they could claim on the insurance even though they don't pay fees.

.......

This post has been deleted.

ClubDead

....... wrote: »

No - no insurance claims are entertained from non payers in mine - unless they pay what they owe the managing agent just wont deal with them.

Well I'm talking about my estate were this is the case unfortunately.

.......

This post has been deleted.

ClubDead

....... wrote: »

But the management company should not allow this!

How are you even going to be able to sell your property if the place is in the condition you describe?

Hope for the best, what else can I do?!

Homer

ClubDead wrote: »

It is somewhat good to know that they will not get away with it forever. No it doesn't help now but its good to know that there smug "above the rules" attitudes won't be so happy when they get a bill for thousands when they eventually move. :cool:

I'd actually like to see these people hit with interest and penalties too :mad:
Probably the same people who will complain that the place looks rundown and complain about the bins not being collected but have never contributed to the service charges!

daheff

CollyFlower wrote: »

Can the Management Company give the name and address of the non-paying owners to the paying owners?

There is a way around this though. In my last estate we had the mgmt agent send out window stickers (different colors each year). People stuck them up in their front window. Was pretty obvious very quickly who had not paid up. Only problem was most of those were rented and didnt give a flying fck

ClubDead

Homer wrote: »

I'd actually like to see these people hit with interest and penalties too :mad:
Probably the same people who will complain that the place looks rundown and complain about the bins not being collected but have never contributed to the service charges!

Definitely, they are the 1st to go online or stop me in the street to complain about how the grass isn't been cut or the janitor is coming around as much.

ClubDead

daheff wrote: »

There is a way around this though. In my last estate we had the mgmt agent send out window stickers (different colors each year). People stuck them up in their front window. Was pretty obvious very quickly who had not paid up. Only problem was most of those were rented and didnt give a flying fck

Thats a really great and cheap idea!

Paulw

Homer wrote: »

I'd actually like to see these people hit with interest and penalties too :mad:

We do that. There is a clause in the contract that says interest can be applied up to 5% per annum. So, we add interest each year, and then any legal fees (for solicitor letters, etc). It adds up.

But, when it comes to selling up, we make them pay BEFORE they can close the sale.

For a sale, the buying solicitors require a specific set of documents signed by the management company, to show the state of the company plus that there are no outstanding fees. Many companies are happy to get the full fees upon sale (money from the sale price), but we insist on payment in advance. We had one couple who hadn't paid fees for 6 years, and we demanded payment in advance. They argued and argued, but we stuck to our position. In the end, they paid up, but just after that, the buyers decided that they waited too long and pulled out of the sale. At least we got all our money.