Impact of Luas Cross City

LeinsterDub

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/luas-may-make-areas-of-dublin-inaccessible-to-cyclists-1.3141052


This report doesn't make for good reading from a cycling point of view.

Busy areas of Dublin city such as Henry Street may become virtually inaccessible to cyclists when Luas Cross City starts operating, according to a National Transport Authority (NTA) draft report.
The NTA has assessed the possibility for cycling along the new Luas corridor and concluded that substantial areas of the city would become largely inaccessible to cyclists unless interventions were made at certain points.
The report also says that areas including parts of St Stephen’s Green, Nassau Street, Lower Grafton Street, O’Connell Street, Parnell Street and Dominick Street will end up being completely off-limits to cyclists when the new line becomes operational.....

The fact they've had 10 years to consider the impact on cycling and now it's a dash to the finish line is a disgrace.

tomasrojo

These problems have been in the public realm for quite a while. irishcycle.com covered them in some detail last year, I think. No effort has been made to facilitate cycling.

Funnily enough, cycling is more important, not just than the Luas, but than rail in total, according to recent data. 50% higher modal share.
https://twitter.com/HanneyDP/status/881529097666654209

That's nationally. Not sure what restricting focus to Dublin would do: both rail and cycling would be a bigger proportion.

ED E

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LAW SUIT!

OleRodrigo

A couple of signs placed around warning motorists to give enough space and cyclists to be careful of the tracks, should be enough.

When you have made a journey once its straightforward to repeat.

carltonleon

It will be a nightmare.

If you are travelling from GPO up past the Rotunda you have to cross 4 different set of tracks including 2 that will run almost parallel to you. It is going to be very dangerous in the wet when the LUAS is running. It's awkward enough now as it is with the cars

tomasrojo

I thought it was interesting in the IT article that it was mentioned that if they don't provide a usable route for cyclists, cyclists will make their own route from what's available, and to the detriment of pedestrians, or whoever. It's a good point, I think. It's easier to create something that induces desired behaviour in the first place than try to punish undesired behaviour into perpetuity.

ED E

tomasrojo wrote: »

I thought it was interesting in the IT article that it was mentioned that if they don't provide a usable route for cyclists, cyclists will make their own route from what's available, and to the detriment of pedestrians, or whoever. It's a good point, I think. It's easier to create something that induces desired behaviour in the first place than try to punish undesired behaviour into perpetuity.

The Finns manage it pretty well, bit beyond DCC.

Mercian Pro

Cian Ginty's excellent summary and analysis of the draft NTA report is at http://irishcycle.com/2017/07/06/cycling-and-luas-cross-city-report-to-be-finalised-next-month/#comments
I am not sure if many of the thousands of commuter cyclists who regularly cross the city centre realise how many restrictions are proposed in this report. These include whole sections of road that will be closed to cycling, use of box turns at junctions where presumably you will have to pull into the left and wait for lights to change before turning right, and use of bike pelican crossings at other junctions. No doubt many cyclists will find ways of ignoring these restrictions but, if they do, will have no basis for a claim if they seriously injure themselves on the tracks.
This is my comment on IrishCycle.com:
"What an unmitigated disaster, but why am I surprised? If you allow the designers of the Cross City route to totally ignore the needs of cyclists, if the NTA fail to represent those needs at the design consultation stage and if you only consider those needs when the route is laid and cast in concrete, of course you will end up with a report that recommends closing off major through routes for cyclists in the city centre.
I had foolishly thought that cycling was now recognised as a significant mode of transport in Dublin but this debacle clearly indicates we are at the bottom of the pile and only tolerated if we don’t get in the way."

CramCycle

ED E wrote: »

The Finns manage it pretty well, bit beyond DCC.

Reminds me of the LUAS bridge in Dundrum. There is a back and forth path at the Joe Daly side of the bridge. Maybe 15m in total, whereas, they could have made a 3m one straight to the road. The desire line appeared within a week or two of it being opened.

Annie get your Run

Is it too late to still do something about it? I can't understand why they didn't (and possibly still could?) build a cycle track alongside the Luas, in particular down the quays. I walked in that way this morning on a beautiful quiet road while the usual chaos and mayhem ensued on the Quays parallel to me. It's baffling. The argument about not upsetting motorists wouldn't come into it as you're already re-routing them for the Luas. What is wrong with the city planners/engineers and designers in this country?!! Surely some of them cycle or have family members that cycle?!

tomasrojo

I guess if everyone else is treating cycling as an afterthought in organisations, it takes an unusually strong-minded person to counter that.

The way I see it (with no professional insight at all, so might well be wrong) is that if you look as if you're inconveniencing public transport or private motorised transport, you will face hostility from both your colleagues and the affected parties. If you inconvenience cyclists and pedestrians, you will face a lot less pushback, and in your mind you can dismiss it as the ravings of a bunch of dirty/well-meaning hippies.

IrishLad90

This new Luas line shall be absolute chaos, it can be dodgy enough walking acrss roads in that part of town and these lines are proving a serious threat to ppl, BUT as a cyclist crossing them is a dreaded experience, dont get me wrong its gas craic stood at a stop and some lad comes off at a slow pace (no one injured) due to the fact its one road to not go down..
It has happened to me (unNoticed i hope)
My issue withall these changes will come in when they try to cross cyclists from the inside of the quay storefronts over onto the boardwalk and then back again 2 sets of traffic lights up :O

Leroy42

SUrely it is not beyond the wit of man to come up with a solution to open train tracks on the road?

As the Luas moves pretty slowly it shouldn't be that difficult.

The traffic issues we will get used to. They manage in other cities mixing trams and bikes and cars etc, no reason why it can't be achieved here.

From my limited, and totally unprofessional viewpoint, it seems that they could have made things easier, but then there are such a myriad of issues to deal with I am sure for every change in route etc that would throw up similar problems

tomasrojo

I think even from a limited point of view (didn't attend design meetings, am not a civil engineer or town planner, etc.) it's pretty clear what happened. They didn't factor in cycling at all. And it's a deliberate omission (they were made aware several years ago of the trouble the cross-city works would cause if they proceeded as planned, and there is a substantial corpus of work existing on how to accommodate cyclists that they could have consulted).

They just didn't want to trouble their beautiful minds.

OleRodrigo

Today I rode right on to Eden Quay from O'Connell St bridge, followed around on to Parnell Street, turned on to Parnell Square West by the Rotunda and went down Dominick Street. There are no issues at any point that weren't there with the first Luas tracks.

Honestly, I don't know what all the fuss is about.

I'd imagine cycling is an afterthought - if that is the case, I don't see any evidence to that effect - because prioritizing public transport is a sound strategy to reduce motor traffic. Prioritizing cycling over public transport is about as realistic as wishing for world peace.

Weepsie

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Today I rode right on to Eden Quay from O'Connell St bridge, followed around on to Parnell Street, turned on to Parnell Square West by the Rotunda and went down Dominick Street. There are no issues at any point that weren't there with the first Luas tracks.

Honestly, I don't know what all the fuss is about.

I'd imagine cycling is an afterthought - if that is the case, I don't see any evidence to that effect - because prioritizing public transport is a sound strategy to reduce motor traffic. Prioritizing cycling over public transport is about as realistic as wishing for world peace.

It's not that it should be prioritized, rather it should have been included and heavily. It should always be included, because when it's added in much later it costs a hell of a lot more.

Similar to cross city, so what if businesses objected, the cost would have been significantly lower over all had cross city been done first time around, or if it was done as a circular route serving the city centre with linear routes to serve suburbs etc.

It's the complete and utter lack of joined in thinking that is commonplace in Irish planning.


That and there are very basic, and not too costly methods of making the tram lines much safer to cross as has been done in numerous places all over the world.

tomasrojo

What usually happens when cycling is neglected is it means both walking and cycling are made worse; either by officially encouraging to use or unofficially tolerating cyclists using pedestrian routes.

Funnily enough, the chair of the UK Road Danger Reduction Forum has explicitly said on a number of occasions that the Netherlands encourages cycling over public transport. It was in the context of reducing car journeys; he was arguing that increases in cycling in NL were likely to reduce public-transport journeys rather than private-car journeys.

buffalo

Some good things happening amidst the chaos: http://www.cycledublin.ie/blog/index.php/2017/07/new-segregated-cycle-track-at-college-green/



Now, who wants to start the pool for first pic of a taxi stopped in it?

uck51js9zml2yt

I cycle down o Connelly at every morning and then over the bridge between the quays and Hawkins st. Go back over o Connelly bridge and up Parnell sq.
A bit of careful cycling and it's doable with all the road works. Shouldn't be any worse with the luas running.
Would prefer not to be wrecking my wheels crossing tracksbut it's faster than driving into work.

Mercian Pro

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know what all the fuss is about.

The fuss is not about the current situation which is bad enough but about the restrictions on cycling being considered by the NTA as a result of cyclists not being considered or consulted when the Cross City route was being designed. Have a read of the draft report at http://irishcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/LCC_Cycling_Report_Final_Draft.pdf
Much of the limited route you describe will no longer be possible if this plan is not successfully opposed.

Slydice

buffalo wrote: »

Some good things happening amidst the chaos: http://www.cycledublin.ie/blog/index.php/2017/07/new-segregated-cycle-track-at-college-green/



Now, who wants to start the pool for first pic of a taxi stopped in it?

I cycled on it.

I swear the experience was so refreshing... even if only 30 seconds max!

I had to turn around and just say how great it felt to another cyclist who was stopped at the traffic lights at the end. He agreed!

Arcade_Tryer

Mercian Pro wrote: »

The fuss is not about the current situation which is bad enough but about the restrictions on cycling being considered by the NTA as a result of cyclists not being considered or consulted when the Cross City route was being designed. Have a read of the draft report at http://irishcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/LCC_Cycling_Report_Final_Draft.pdf
Much of the limited route you describe will no longer be possible if this plan is not successfully opposed.

NTA - "Get off the road! Cyclists don't even pay road tax!"

OleRodrigo

Weepsie wrote: »

with linear routes to serve suburbs etc.

It's the complete and utter lack of joined in thinking that is commonplace in Irish planning.

.

As the fella says, for every inefficiency in public administration there's a cushy job with a comfortable pension

OleRodrigo

Mercian Pro wrote: »

The fuss is not about the current situation which is bad enough but about the restrictions on cycling being considered by the NTA as a result of cyclists not being considered or consulted when the Cross City route was being designed. Have a read of the draft report at http://irishcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/LCC_Cycling_Report_Final_Draft.pdf
Much of the limited route you describe will no longer be possible if this plan is not successfully opposed.

I don't see that as a problem. Rerouting from Marlborough St or Dominick Street isn't a significant change of direction. They aren't proposing to make drastic changes from what I can see.

Likewise for Dawson St - nobody could go down it for quite a while anyway. They still managed to ride across the centre by detouring on to Georges Street around the back of the College of Surgeons, or cutting across to Merrion Sq and on to Pearse St.

Once there remains a route through the centre cyclists will adapt.

Kaisr Sose

The new cycle lane opened sometime Friday. Can't wait to try it. No more busses and taxis (generally) trying to squeeze through on the bend - even though the likelihood is they have to stop at beginning of Westmoreland St or at the Quays.

OleRodrigo

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

The new cycle lane opened sometime Friday. Can't wait to try it. No more busses and taxis (generally) trying to squeeze through on the bend - even though the likelihood is they have to stop at beginning of Westmoreland St or at the Quays.

I came down it earlier. It was full of drunks who couldn't/ wouldn't walk on the path.

Kaisr Sose

OleRodrigo wrote: »

I came down it earlier. It was full of drunks who couldn't/ wouldn't walk on the path.

Only in Ireland!! might even become a sulkie track too

Mercian Pro

Weepsie wrote: »

That and there are very basic, and not too costly methods of making the tram lines much safer to cross as has been done in numerous places all over the world.

Examples?

I checked out flange fillers a few years ago and couldn't find any example where they successfully worked. Both Goodyear and a Swiss company had developed products but they were shredded by the weight of the trams. If there is a product that last more than a few weeks, it would be good to know.

Kaisr Sose

Having worked in a Swiss city that had loads of cyclists and tram lines, I seen no devices fitted that made them easier to cross.

OleRodrigo

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Only in Ireland!! might even become a sulkie track too

Might have been the warm weather and the Coldplay concert but it does highlight the problem with separated cycling paths in Ireland; if its possible to skate, walk, loiter, park, dog walk, lie down in a drunken sprawl, stop and have a chat, RLJ or jog in it - people will.

tomasrojo

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Having worked in a Swiss city that had loads of cyclists and tram lines, I seen no devices fitted that made them easier to cross.

Yeah, I worked in Basel, admittedly a long time ago, and I don't recall any devices like that. You weren't directed across the tracks at oblique angles though, as far as I recall.

I'm willing to believe that the decision against using the track fillers was in good faith, and that they aren't really used much anywhere else. It does sound plausible.