Pistol for dual purpose

CZ455Mad

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MOD NOTE

Split this off from this thread so as not to disrupt the info the OP is looking for.

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Hack12 wrote: »

can only use the pistol at the range for target shooting.

Not trying to be an ass just trying to be correct but as I recently learned from a certain mod on here there is absolutely not law or rule stopping you from applying for hunting as well as range for a pistol on your application and once it is granted you can use it to hunt as far as my understanding is

Luckysasha

I'm sure you can apply to have a pistol for hunting but good luck getting a super To sign off on it. I was however surprised when I got my pistol grant letter and nowhere did it state that the pistol was strictly for range use only. In fairness I only put range use as my reason for licensing the pistol. I wonder if I had also put hunting on it would there have been mention of it on the grant letter. I haven't put multiple uses on either of my gun licenses so maybe it does stipulate what your being granted the license for. The flip side of that is for my .22lr rifle I put " pest control on the farm" as my reason so does that mean strictly speaking I can't take it to the range with me ?

CZ455Mad

Misinterpreted that the point I was making is that you do have to have a range membership, however when you are filling in your form and have provided the range membership, when you are ticing the use of firearm part you can tick both authorised range use and hunting and IF you get granted then you will have the use of the pistol for both range and hunting purposes

CZ455Mad

Luckysasha wrote: »

The flip side of that is for my .22lr rifle I put " pest control on the farm" as my reason so does that mean strictly speaking I can't take it to the range with me ?

To the letter of the law if you only put hunting on your licence then hunting is all you have been licenced to do with that firearm.

Personally I got my rifle for the same reason varminting. But as I have every intention of going to the range I am re-applying for my licence (also adding a mod) so that I can legally do both hunt and range. Most people would do both or ignore the fact and you probably 99times out of 100 get away with it but I consider myself an unlucky sod so I do everything by the book

Hack12

Pistols are only allowed on ranges as per below act.

3. Article 4(2) of the Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order
2008 (S.I. No. 21 of 2008) is amended by the substitution of the following
subparagraph for subparagraph (e)—
“(e) the following short firearms where a firearms certificate is sought
for the purpose of using a firearm for target shooting on the
premises of a rifle or pistol club or a rifle or pistol shooting range
authorised under section 4A of the Firearms Act 1925 or at such
other place as stands authorised under section 2(5) of that Act:
(i) air-operated firearms designed for use with 4.5 millimetres
(0.177 inch) calibre ammunition;
(ii) single shot firearms designed for use with 0.22 inch long rifle
rim fire percussion ammunition;
(iii) firearms which are designed for use with 0.22 inch long rifle
rim fire percussion ammunition and use magazines that have
been manufactured or modified prior to use so as to
accommodate no more than five rounds of ammunitionâ€.

Vizzy

CZ455Mad wrote: »

Misinterpreted that the point I was making is that you do have to have a range membership, however when you are filling in your form and have provided the range membership, when you are ticing the use of firearm part you can tick both authorised range use and hunting and IF you get granted then you will have the use of the pistol for both range and hunting purposes

I'd say that you can apply for a licence to "hunt" with a pistol, as the FCA1 is a generic form and covers all eventualities. In theory, using the FCA1, you could apply to hunt deer with a pistol.
But it will be refused firstly because you need more than a .22 to hunt deer and secondly because you can only use a pistol on a range.
If you applied for a pistol licence for both the range and for hunting, I would suspect that it will either be refused outright ( and this will allow you to re-apply for range use only) or it will be granted with conditions stipulating that it can only be use on a range.

Luckysasha

CZ455Mad wrote: »

To the letter of the law if you only put hunting on your licence then hunting is all you have been licenced to do with that firearm.

Personally I got my rifle for the same reason varminting. But as I have every intention of going to the range I am re-applying for my licence (also adding a mod) so that I can legally do both hunt and range. Most people would do both or ignore the fact and you probably 99times out of 100 get away with it but I consider myself an unlucky sod so I do everything by the book

That's the point I'm trying to get my head around. I have been granted a license for my .22lr for pest control. So today I decided I'm bringing it to the range and I'm stopped at a Garda checkpoint I explain I'm carrying a rifle and show him the license. How does he know that license is only for shooting rabbits on my farm. Is the Garda going to go to the trouble of trawling back through my FCA1 to see what box I ticked.

Grizzly 45

CZ455Mad wrote: »

To the letter of the law if you only put hunting on your licence then hunting is all you have been licenced to do with that firearm.

Not necessarily true either.Apply for a shotgun for hunting and it is perfectly acceptable to go clay shooting with it too at your local club.
Unless you specifically state you want it only for clay shooting,you are entitled to hunt with it too.Pending having land etc..

Hack12

I think you can use a firearm at the range even though you are granted the licence for pest control as it is a controlled environment and the licence on the range dictate what calibres can be shot at the range. E.g. you go to a range and you are allowed shoot .22 on benchrest but you would not be allowed shoot a .17 on the range depending on the licence the range has.

Special conditions may be applied on your licence by AGS but prevailing laws such as range use only (for pistols) is not as it is a given.

CZ455Mad

I'm just throwing in my two cents not saying what I'm saying is gospel but from my own INTERPRETATION is that legally speaking you are not covered. Put this question to a family member who is an inspector and she said that IF there was an incident they would go back and check form and see was the purpose what they actually stated but she said personally she hasn't seen it herself but that is not to say it hasn't happened!

Luckysasha

I agree completely. It's another one of these "its grand until something happens".

BattleCorp

Has anybody got a pistol on the basis of ticking both the target shooting and hunting boxes on the FAC1 form?

I'd seriously doubt it.

Aren't pistols only allowed to be used on authorised ranges? Isn't target shooting the only lawful reason to be granted a licence for a pistol?

I certainly wouldn't like to be caught by my local Gardaí marching across the fields with my pistol strapped to my hip.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not necessarily true either.Apply for a shotgun for hunting and it is perfectly acceptable to go clay shooting with it too at your local club.
Unless you specifically state you want it only for clay shooting,you are entitled to hunt with it too.Pending having land etc..

Clay shooting is not legally classed as target shooting hence the reason you can do both. It's why clay ranges don't have to pay the range fee and adhere to range standards. It's also why you can set up a trap with some friends in the field, bog, etc and not fall foul of the law.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Has anybody got a pistol on the basis of ticking both the target shooting and hunting boxes on the FAC1 form?

Few years back, yes. not hunting, but humane dispatch. Not recently with renewals, etc. although i did not tick both boxes.

Aren't pistols only allowed to be used on authorised ranges?

Isn't target shooting the only lawful reason to be granted a licence for a pistol?

I started this debate a few months back as something was bothering me. The law doesn't say it must be used on a range only that the applicant be a member of an authorised range.

My argument was:

Cass wrote:

As i've said it's really a topic for its own thread, but i was only thinking about it a few weeks ago and started to do some digging.

In short, because its way too long to go through it all now, the law says you must be a member of an authorised range. If you are you can apply for a pistol. If you tick hunting on the FCA1 as well as target shooting and the Super either doesn't have a problem with,doesn't see it or puts no conditions on your license and the license is granted then you get the pistol for target shooting and vermin (as you cannot hunt with a pistol).

If the Super said he wouldn't grant it for hunting, you ask why. If he says it's illegal you ask for the act, si or amendment that says so. He won't find one because other than a pistol being mentioned in the Widlife Acts as not being allowed for hunting of game (wild birds, animals, etc) there is no such restriction on rabbits, foxes, etc. It's why you can shoot them with a rifle or shotgun and why some other species (mostly game) have a specific firearm named as being needed. Also no law exists that says a pistol can only be used on a range, just that the applicant be a member of a range.

Probably shouldn't be saying all this, but if i've found it i'm sure others have too.

Battlecorp wrote:

I certainly wouldn't like to be caught by my local Gardaí marching across the fields with my pistol strapped to my hip.

In short it would require a set of conditions that may probably never happen to make it legal and even then a court case would swiftly follow or some new SI to close of any potential loophole.

It was all academic, but something i wanted others opinions on.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

I started this debate a few months back as something was bothering me. The law doesn't say it must be used on a range only that the applicant be a member of an authorised range.

My argument was:

And proably under EU law this is proably also an illegal pre condition as well.
You cannot be forced directly or indirectly to join any party,religion,group or body to obtain treatment or positions or items that would be available to others..Or words to that effevt.It's one of the challanges the East blockers are launching in the EU courts on this directive.

The prima facie point is good reason to posses.You can shoot competitions nationally once you are liscensed.You are not stuck a home club. So you could travel to matches when and wherever.Ergo ,you are fullfilling your reason to posses.The you must be a member of a club is one of these things that could be proably be challanged as again this seems to be a presumtavie pre condition

I certainly wouldn't like to be caught by my local Gardaí marching across the fields with my pistol strapped to my hip.

I would think it might also be on circumstances as well... Say for example ,you went to the range for a few hours pistol shooting and then decided to drive to your deer let for an evening stalk..Whats the wiser secureity with your firearms?Leave a desireable handgun in a locked box in your car while alarmed,you could be up to a couple of miles from it if the alarm goes off.Or take it with you without any ammo?? liscensed shooter with two firearms on him in the wilds,while "odd",Vs a potentially stolen firearm from a vechicle out in nowhereville?? Be an intresting one all right.

Wadi14

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I would think it might also be on circumstances as well... Say for example ,you went to the range for a few hours pistol shooting and then decided to drive to your deer let for an evening stalk..Whats the wiser secureity with your firearms?Leave a desireable handgun in a locked box in your car while alarmed,you could be up to a couple of miles from it if the alarm goes off.Or take it with you without any ammo?? liscensed shooter with two firearms on him in the wilds,while "odd",Vs a potentially stolen firearm from a vechicle out in nowhereville?? Be an intresting one all right.

Im guessing the Garda would say both are wrong, you should have taken it home first

Grolschevik

I clicked into this hoping it was a misspelling of 'duel'...

1349

Hack12 wrote: »

3. Article 4(2) of the Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order
2008 (S.I. No. 21 of 2008) is amended by the substitution of the following
subparagraph for subparagraph (e)—
“(e) the following short firearms where a firearms certificate is sought
for the purpose of using a firearm for target shooting on the
premises of a rifle or pistol club or a rifle or pistol shooting range
authorised under section 4A of the Firearms Act 1925 or at such
other place as stands authorised under section 2(5) of that Act:
(i) air-operated firearms designed for use with 4.5 millimetres
(0.177 inch) calibre ammunition;
(ii) single shot firearms designed for use with 0.22 inch long rifle
rim fire percussion ammunition;
(iii) firearms which are designed for use with 0.22 inch long rifle
rim fire percussion ammunition and use magazines that have
been manufactured or modified prior to use so as to
accommodate no more than five rounds of ammunitionâ€.

So are .22 revolvers restricted? They are neither "single shot" nor do they "use magazines". Are these vague terms defined anywhere in the law?

juice1304

1349 wrote: »

So are .22 revolvers restricted? They are neither "single shot" nor do they "use magazines". Are these vague terms defined anywhere in the law?

you have to plug the chambers in the cylinder :rolleyes: it is silly but that is the law.

Grizzly 45

Wadi14 wrote: »

Im guessing the Garda would say both are wrong, you should have taken it home first

Sometimes not very practile,and as any legal smith will tell you there also has to be an amount of common sense applied to applying the law too.

Great pity our deer societies and hunters didnt apply this common sense to pistols in 2008,where they could have argued that they are necessary for humane dispatch,and the above would be considerd like in a few EU countries ,even in the UK as a normal part of deer hunting kit.

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sometimes not very practile,and as any legal smith will tell you there also has to be an amount of common sense applied to applying the law too.

Great pity our deer societies and hunters didnt apply this common sense to pistols in 2008,where they could have argued that they are necessary for humane dispatch,and the above would be considerd like in a few EU countries ,even in the UK as a normal part of deer hunting kit.:(

Revolvers are modified on mainland UK to TWO shots only by rendering the other chambers solid by welded plugs, or by the provision of two-round only chambered cylinders custom-made.

Self-loading pistols have two-shot magazines, permanently altered as such.

Alteration of either type of firearm to allow the loading of more than two rounds - if it were possible - would likely earn you up to a five-year stretch for illegal possession of a Section 5 firearm.

One stalker arrived unannounced on our range one Saturday to 'try out' his .357Mag Taurus humane despatch revolver on targets, in direct contravention of the terms of his FAC. Having been refused access by one of the range officers, he was spotted by one of the members who is an FEO. We learned later that that little episode cost him his FAC and all his guns pending criminal charges being brought against him.

It's a hard ould world over here.

tac