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Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 207 km

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    #152
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    MPFGLB wrote: »
    was he though...sigh

    What are your sighing for? Are you saying Sagan had a nervous tick at that exact moment?

    Take the two personalities out of it, Cav and Sagan, and I don't think you'd have this clutching of straws trying to find an exact frame in a video trying to exonerate Sagan.


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    #153
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,507 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Itziger wrote: »
    Why do you think he was 'going into the barrier'? For a bit of a laugh, maybe? C-mon folks, open your eyes.

    Because he picked a crap line when another 4 cyclists around him had boxed him in. It wasn't Sagan alone that had Cavendish that far over the road. Cavendish chose that line, when there was no space to get through in the first place.

    If Sagan goes the other way it's possible that more than 1 rider is taken out.


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    #154
    at1withmyself
    Registered Users Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭at1withmyself


    Did Sagan actually "elbow" Cav or was he pushing his head off his arm? Me it looks like he was pushing his head off his arm which is what i would have done at 70km/hr.

    As others have said its not black & white and I don't think anyone can really make a comment stating "X is 100% at fault" as different footage shows different scenarios.

    IMO I don't think it was Sagans fault from what i see so far and the DSQ was ridiculous!


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    #155
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    pelevin wrote: »
    That is by far the most important footage of the incident & shows the dq of Sagan is wrong.

    How is it more important than the actual unedited live, and slow mo, full video of the actual incident?
    Weepsie wrote: »
    Because he picked a crap line when another 4 cyclists around him had boxed him in.

    His line was fine.


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    #156
    MPFGLB
    Registered Users Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭MPFGLB


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    What are your sighing for? Are you saying Sagan had a nervous tick at that exact moment?

    Take the two personalities out of it, Cav and Sagan, and I don't think you'd have this clutching of straws trying to find an exact frame in a video trying to exonerate Sagan.

    I am not clutching at any straws .... look at ITV analysis ...points clearly to Demare being equally at fault and its about riders crossing their lines

    And you are suggesting I am biased becasue of the personalities involved.....
    idiot comment that has not read anything I wrote but assumed bias for no good reason


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    #157
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    MPFGLB wrote: »
    I am not clutching at any straws .... look at ITV analysis ...points clearly to Demare being equally at fault and its about riders crossing their lines

    And you are suggesting I am biased becasue of the personalities involved.....
    idiot comment that has not read anything I wrote but assumed bias for no good reason

    I'm suggesting there's certainly bias, yes, from several people. What was the whole point of your sponsors post?

    Try argue the point instead of insinuating I'm an idiot though.


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    #158
    Itziger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,016 ✭✭✭Itziger


    Weepsie wrote: »
    Because he picked a crap line when another 4 cyclists around him had boxed him in. It wasn't Sagan alone that had Cavendish that far over the road. Cavendish chose that line, when there was no space to get through in the first place.

    If Sagan goes the other way it's possible that more than 1 rider is taken out.

    Watch the overhead and tell me he picked a crap line!! He followed the eventual winner through. His only problem is his relative lack of speed left a small gap between them and Sagan veers into it.
    http://www.steephill.tv/players/720/twitter/?title=Overhead+angle+of+the+Stage+4+finish&dashboard=tour-de-france&id=LeTour/status/882260461185642496&yr=2017


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    #159
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    How is it more important than the actual unedited live, and slow mo, full video of the actual incident?

    Because different angles and cameras can show things better. Why do you think across many sports they will use different cameras to try to discern whether a try has been scored, a catch in cricket been clean, a ball went through posts or not? Are you somehow saying the footage in that video doesn't count? I see you've said "I don't agree with people saying Cav was on his way down before the elbow." Well that video seems very much to show otherwise.


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    #160
    Einstein?
    Registered Users Posts: 378 ✭✭Einstein?


    Also why are people dishing out 70kmph? Cav was doing no more than 60


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    #161
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    pelevin wrote: »
    Because different angles and cameras can show things better. Why do you think across many sports they will use different cameras to try to discern whether a try has been scored, a catch in cricket been clean, a ball went through posts or not? Are you somehow saying the footage in that video doesn't count?

    No, but it's no more important than all the other angles in this case.

    As for your edit, you also have to ask that if people think he was on his way down at that point, why was he?


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    #162
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    MPFGLB wrote: »
    This ....and it not like cycling can aford to lose sponsors like this

    https://twitter.com/inrng/status/882290445627400192

    Commercial interest before fair play or safety? Looks like ASO have learned the tour is bigger than one rider ....


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    #163
    CantGetNoSleep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,252 ✭✭✭CantGetNoSleep


    I've no idea why people like Sagan at all, never understood this love for him


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    #164
    Lusk_Doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    Gentlemen. Relax. It happened. Nobody died. Except a few fantasy cycling teams hopes.


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    #165
    Icepick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    Ridiculous dq.
    Cav at least 50% fault there.


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    #166
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Lusk_Doyle wrote: »
    Gentlemen. Relax. It happened. Nobody died. Except a few fantasy cycling teams hopes.

    I worried it was too soon the mention the velogames but now you bring them up ..... :pac:


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    #167
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    No, but it's no more important than all the other angles in this case.

    As for your edit, you also have to ask that if people think he was on his way down at that point, why was he?

    I'm not saying Sagan is blameless though & perhaps he is guilty of veering off-line, as do though all the sprinters ahead of him. Such things very often happen in sprints though. Is it so bad as to kick him off the race? Seems totally out of sync with what I've seen the last few years.


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    #168
    Icepick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    CantGetNoSleep wrote: »
    I've no idea why people like Sagan at all, never understood this love for him
    Pretty good at, you know, cycling.


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    #169
    MPFGLB
    Registered Users Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭MPFGLB


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    I'm suggesting there's certainly bias, yes, from several people. What was the whole point of your sponsors post?

    Try argue the point instead of insinuating I'm an idiot though.


    I put the Bora comment as evidence of the impact on cycling not as evidence to not throw a dirty rider off the Tour....I made no link between that and my other comments

    You have inferred that I put it forward as evidence as to why Sagan should not be DSQ
    then you suggested I am making my comments because of the personalities involved

    I made them because of the evidence which I posted...the personalities are secondary

    I apologize for calling your comment idiotic but again did not say you were an idiot ...you are clearly not ..again a leap of inference

    However please do not imply bias when it is not the case


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    #170
    Lusk_Doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    Icepick wrote: »
    Ridiculous dq.
    Cav at least 50% fault there.

    No way was he any greater than 43.7% at fault.


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    #171
    koutoubia
    Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭koutoubia


    Its a bull**** decision.
    Cav left a gap to ADs wheel and tried a dangerous move to get back by coming on the inside. Sagan saw AD's wheel and latched on at the same time CAv was coming up on the hoardings.
    Cav is guilty of the same many times including his disgraceful behaviour towards Veelers a few years back.
    The Tdf is a farce.
    Roll on Vuelta and end of season classics!


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    #172
    Pa8301
    Closed Accounts Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Pa8301


    I think the dq is very harsh. If Sagan is bitter about it, I wonder would he consider skipping the tour in the future as a result. He has his 6 green jerseys and the numerous stage wins. Could he do a Tom Boonen on it and focus on the classics? Maybe ride the vuelta as a tune up for the worlds. Or do the commercial considerations outweigh everything else?


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    #173
    Popoutman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Popoutman


    An unfortunate result, a harsh but ultimately fair decision. There's absolutely no doubt that Sagan veered off line in the final sprint, and dangerously cut off Cavendish. That change of line is expressly set out as forbidden in the rules, and while not rigidly enforced all of the time the rule is there and must be abided by.

    Cav did nothing wrong in this one, he was holding his line, and got sideswiped. Sagan's trajectory into Cav's sprint line for the sprint is what the punishment is about. It's irrelevant whether Cav was falling before the elbow or not, or whether there was contact with the elbow, as Sagan had already left Cav with absolutely nowhere to go - it was that the raised elbow that sealed Sagan's fate there and it meant Sagan could no longer claim a pure racing incident.

    For Sagan, the fact it was not the first time this week that he did something like this was probably well known to the commissaires, and it cannot be condoned to have top riders being seen to ride dangerously and continually get away with it.

    Sagan did need to receive some form of sanction for the swerve and contact, there's no doubt about that. As for whether the disqualification was appropriate, that's a hard one to call, but that was the call made by the people who are best placed to make that decision.

    A pity that Sagan chose to ride like that, as there's no winner from this. The Tour loses a top rider to an injury, loses another top rider for the sanction, and the fans are denied an opportunity to see better racing this year.

    I hope Cav recovers quickly from another shoulder injury. Maybe he can limp along in the peloton if nothing is actually broken, but I haven't yet seen any damage reports from the medical assessments.


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    #174
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    In an interview on ITV there other injuries aside Cav questioned his ability to break safely with his fingers in their current condition and that if he felt he'd be a hazard because if it he wouldn't race.


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    #175
    MPFGLB
    Registered Users Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭MPFGLB


    Here si someone who clearly knows the score

    https://twitter.com/AndreGreipel/status/882320977719427074


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    #176
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 30,536 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Honestly I don't know whether DQ as a punishment fit the offence... I do know it would have been wrong for the race comissaires to overlook an offence just because it was a star like Sagan. And even if Cav has crossed the line in the past, an offence is an offence, if what Sagan did was wrong - well imagine it was Sam Bennett not Cav on the receiving end...

    What I do know is that it is a tragedy for the Tour to lose two exciting riders like Sagan and Cav :(

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #177
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    pelevin wrote: »
    I'm not saying Sagan is blameless though & perhaps he is guilty of veering off-line, as do though all the sprinters ahead of him. Such things very often happen in sprints though. Is it so bad as to kick him off the race? Seems totally out of sync with what I've seen the last few years.

    Yeah, but maybe it's just race organisers cracking down on such things. We always have such 'racing incidents' (ironically often involving Cav as the offender) and there's calls for him to be DQ'd.

    In this thread alone we had people posting old videos asking why was there no DQ then. Well this race we have and people ask why when there was none in such and such an instance.

    Case in point
    koutoubia wrote: »
    Cav is guilty of the same many times including his disgraceful behaviour towards Veelers a few years back.
    The Tdf is a farce.


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    #178
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,513 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    Sagan definately made him fall. Pity to see him kicked off the tour but he was at fault.


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    #179
    iwillhtfu
    Registered Users Posts: 6,372 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    RoboKlopp wrote: »
    Sagan definately made him fall. Pity to see him kicked off the tour but he was at fault.

    Cav going into a gap that was clearly closing is what made him fall. A BS decision and Cav has some neck to be looking for sympathy or explanation.

    A racing incident that was dealt with far to harshly.


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    #180
    Somedude9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭Somedude9


    Whilst I don't condone Sagan's actions, this sets a dangerous precedent i.e. they'll be no sprinters left by the end of the Tour.


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    #181
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,513 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    iwillhtfu wrote: »
    Cav going into a gap that was clearly closing is what made him fall. A BS decision and Cav has some neck to be looking for sympathy or explanation.

    A racing incident that was dealt with far to harshly.


    Going into a gap doesn't deserve an elbow.

    Sagan was in the wrong here, not Cav.


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