Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 207 km

Raam

Free Peter Sagan.

iwillhtfu

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Going into a gap doesn't deserve an elbow.

Sagan was in the wrong here, not Cav.

Cav didn't receive any elbow.

Do you honestly expect Sag to sit back and hope Cav doesn't take both of them out of it. Don't be silly

wexandproud

cavandish's fault , he was first to make contact trying to create a gap . just as they go under the tree and as they come out from under it he is clearly after making contact and is on his way down before the elbow comes out

MPFGLB

But the point is if there had to be in this instance a penalty then loss of 80 points ( which would mean the green jersey for the Tour ) , relegation to last and a fine would have sufficed

the evidence is clearly not clear cut and other riders in that sprint contributed to the incident , especially Demare ...plus I believe there was no intent on Sagan's part ... ( I believe he didn't bring down Cavandish with his elbow but setting that aside and concentrating on the punishment )

Disqualification was over the top and ridiculous

And I would have said this no matter who fell

ThisRegard

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Cav didn't receive any elbow.

Do you honestly expect Sag to sit back and hope Cav doesn't take both of them out of it. Don't be silly

Crash, what crash?

Cav himself said he wanted to talk with Sagan about the elbow, he could put being cycled upon as down to racing. I don't think he watched any TV replays to realise the elbow was flicked out. Although I do acknowledge Cav might have been leaning in to hold his line, which might be reason for an appeal

Bobeagleburger

wexandproud wrote: »

cavandish's fault , he was first to make contact trying to create a gap . just as they go under the tree and as they come out from under it he is clearly after making contact and is on his way down before the elbow comes out

So he can probably expect a ban then?..

iwillhtfu

Where was he elbowed off the bike again?

A stupid decision by Cav and he paid for it.

Raam

This elbow debate is like that blue/white dress thing from a while back.

iwillhtfu

Raam wrote: »

This elbow debate is like that blue/white dress thing from a while back.

Kind of but in this instance there'd be no dress

Moflojo

This has all the makings of cycling's Saipan. We'll be arguing about this for years to come!

If anyone has yet to make up their mind on this, I suggest they do so as soon as possible. Fence-sitters will not be tolerated.

#TeamCav

Macy0161

Really think some people are being swayed by the personalities blaming cav equally tbh.

Sagan is one of my favourite riders but I think he was by far the main rider at fault.

However, I think the original sanction was sufficient.

wexandproud

RoboKlopp wrote: »

So he can probably expect a ban then?..

well they blamed sagan and sent him packing so something should be cavandish. i have just had time to look back through thread and the post from einstein [ i think] shows it clearly

ThisRegard

Watching Eurosport now, and it was suggested by a team manager earlier (Lotto I think), Sagan is being blamed for the first crash by some when he forced his way through two FDJ riders, which can be seen by the helicopter shot.

Somedude9

Perjaps it's for consistently acting the maggot? Yet the jerk-off officials aren't answering any questions, so we can't gain any clarification on the matter.

Bobeagleburger

wexandproud wrote: »

well they blamed sagan and sent him packing so something should be cavandish. i have just had time to look back through thread and the post from einstein [ i think] shows it clearly

Einstein's post clearly shows's Sagan is at fault imo.

Lusk_Doyle

Somedude9 wrote: »

Maybe it's for consistently acting the maggot?

Seriously? Not on your nelly.

All My Stars Aligned

I'm not sure who was or was not at fault but what I don't understand is why the TDF/ASO officials are getting such grief. Surely the less controversial/easiest option would have been to stick with the first punishment? Does this decision at least show that they are trying to put the safety and welfare of the riders above commercial interests (and most folks fantasy TDF teams)?

Somedude9

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Seriously? Not on your nelly.

I'm not saying he has been nor that he should be booted for such, just that perhaps that's why. There's talk of him causing the first crash today, also he clearly and unnecessarily barged Greipel in an intermediate sprint yesterday.

ThisRegard

Moflojo wrote: »

This has all the makings of cycling's Saipan. We'll be arguing about this for years to come!

Although if Keane is to be believed the ground Cav crashed into was noticeably softer than the ground the Irish players might have stumbled onto at their training pitch.

MPFGLB

Moflojo wrote: »

This has all the makings of cycling's Saipan. We'll be arguing about this for years to come!

If anyone has yet to make up their mind on this, I suggest they do so as soon as possible. Fence-sitters will not be tolerated.

#TeamCav

I knew a couple in Clare ...quite elderly ...who had each other up by the neck over Saipan ....not sure they even liked football

Weepsie

Itziger wrote: »

Watch the overhead and tell me he picked a crap line!! He followed the eventual winner through. His only problem is his relative lack of speed left a small gap between them and Sagan veers into it.
http://www.steephill.tv/players/720/twitter/?title=Overhead+angle+of+the+Stage+4+finish&dashboard=tour-de-france&id=LeTour/status/882260461185642496&yr=2017

He picked a crap line, he wasn't getting through there ever. Sagan was ahead of him the entire time and was already moving across, Cavendish was never getting through that unless he was ahead of Demare

Weepsie

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Going into a gap doesn't deserve an elbow.

Sagan was in the wrong here, not Cav.

There was no gap big enough to go into. Cavendish was behind him. Sagan was moving across at at least the same right. Cavendish tried getting in somewhere that he couldn't have anyway. It was a racing incident, doesn't deserve a DQ

Beasty

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

Surely the less controversial/easiest option would have been to stick with the first punishment? Does this decision at least show that they are trying to put the safety and welfare of the riders above commercial interests (and most folks fantasy TDF teams)?

On the first point any appeal has to be done independently from an initial sanction/decision. It should be viewed objectively with absolutely no regard for the individuals involved until you get to the stage of deciding what sanction, if any, to impose (when prior history may have a relevance)

On the safety point, this must be paramount. Cav looks very lucky not to have been more seriously injured. Crashing at 60 km/h is always likely to result in some injury. In this case the fact he crashed sideways into the advertising hoardings may have saved him from more serious injury (if there had been metal railings there for example, or if he had gone over the board and into the crowd). The guys flying over him were also lucky.

Sagan was completely reckless in my view putting himself and others in serious and unnecessary danger

flatty

I like Sagan, and wouldn't be a huge fan of Cav, but this was a dangerous and aggressive shut down of a line that cavendish wat perfectly entitled to be on, and tbh, I think a DQ is reasonable enough in the circumstances. Sagan has, to all intents and purposes, ended the tour for a fellow top sprinter, and potentially caused a serious injury.

Diarmuid

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a change of mind by the commisaire before the start tomorrow...

Weepsie

Beasty wrote: »

Sagan was completely reckless in my view putting himself and others in serious and unnecessary danger

I would say Cavendish was also reckless. He went for a space that was never ever there. One of them was going to go down. Unless Sagan has an Owl like head he can't really see that there is another rider trying to occupy the space that he is already on course to occupy

recedite

Karma comes back to bite Cavendish in the ass. He has done this often enough to other riders. And he is probably the main reason Sagan thought it was OK to do it in the TDF.
TDF organisers sometimes reverse a decision the next day, but Sagan should be sanctioned in some way if he is let back into the race.

robyntmorton

For those in posts 13-33 today, talking about the snoozefest. You got the action you were after, and this will be talked about for years to come probably.

#TeamSag

pelevin

Tobh I don't feel like watching anymore of this race. I think a dq is simply unjustified, particularly after footage has shown the elbow to the barriers to be not the case at all. Every sprinter veered off line. Ok, penalise Sagan if seen fit but to dq fully would require certainty of his malicious intent, otherwise the organisers have suddenly decided to officiate totally differently than cycling up to now.

If not for Dan Martin, I think i'd probably find it pretty easy to jump ship as a viewer. People can disagree if they want, but this is my emotional response & reality for me.

Is it certain that Team Dimension Data pushed for Sagan's expulsion? If so pretty revealing a tweet from Roger Hammond of that team where he wrote: "elbows fellow competitor in the head 300 meters... can only result in one decision." Well, footage has proved that the elbow to the head which was Hammond's prime focus didn't happen. That says plenty imo.

Einstein?

Sorry but being 2 meters behind a rider doesn't make it your line. Sagan is a very skilled rider and always waits to jump on the back of someone accelerating at around 200 m from the line. On the other hand Cav could have and should have gone left around Sagan instead of trying to squeeze between Sagan's buttocks and the railings at speed, which he smashed into causing him to lose balance. The elbow was a twitch move from Sagan in response to feeling someone's face smacking his buttocks, and never actually made contact with Cav.