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Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 207 km

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    #212
    Icepick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    The spin regarding the incosequential elbow - to Cav anyway - is a thing to behold.


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    #213
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,310 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    Cavendish out of the Tour - broken shoulder


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    #214
    Decuc500
    Registered Users Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭Decuc500


    DQ a bit harsh on Sagan but I do think it was his fault. It was a reckless manoeuvre at best. Flicking out the elbow maybe made up the judges minds and turned it into more than just a sprinting incident that we see all the time.

    A shame because it takes away from a great victory for the French champion.


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    #215
    selwyn froggitt
    Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭selwyn froggitt


    https://twitter.com/TeamDiData?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor


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    #216
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    Article in Velonews on this: http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/commentary/jury-wrong-sagans-dsq_442744

    "Why the jury is wrong on Sagan’s DSQ"


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    #217
    Einstein?
    Registered Users Posts: 378 ✭✭Einstein?


    The fact that Dimension Data is the TDF main technology sponsor has nothing to do with the decision at all.:rolleyes:


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    #218
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Einstein? wrote: »
    The fact that Dimension Data is the TDF main technology sponsor has nothing to do with the decision at all.:rolleyes:

    I doubt it, TDF would have little trouble attracting others, CA technologies for starters.


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    #219
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    pelevin wrote: »
    Article in Velonews on this: http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/commentary/jury-wrong-sagans-dsq_442744

    "Why the jury is wrong on Sagan’s DSQ"

    They start off saying it happened at 70kph, and yet one of their arguments is that Cav unclipped at this speed because the crash was imminent? He's that good?


    And we also have conspiracy theories starting now because of sponsors, despite Sagan being a massive draw?

    It's really jumped shark now.


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    #220
    sin_26
    Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭sin_26


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    They start off saying it happened at 70kph, and yet one of their arguments is that Cav unclipped at this speed because the crash was imminent? He's that good?


    And we also have conspiracy theories starting now because of sponsors, despite Sagan being a massive draw?

    It's really jumped shark now.

    Yes he is and you are wrong


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    #221
    Djoucer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 620 ✭✭✭Djoucer


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I doubt it, TDF would have little trouble attracting others, CA technologies for starters.

    To be fair. A team paying/receiving from TDF is a conflict of interest.


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    #222
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    On my fist to 21st viewing it doesn't look like a DQ. Cavendish had no right to space coming from behind. It was only a bit of an elbow, dock Sagab some points.

    But if he caused both crashes, different story.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #223
    1bryan
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    Djoucer wrote: »
    To be fair. A team paying/receiving from TDF is a conflict of interest.

    To be fair, this isn't anything new. Festina, CSC-Tiscali, are 2 I can think of off the top of my head that were both race sponsors and part of the race logistics, as DD are this year.

    There are a lot of angles you could come at if you're looking for a conspiracy theory - Demare (ie: a French rider) for green? Cavendish being a brit, cookson, etc. But it's a waste of energy.

    To be honest, if the original punishment had stood (relegation/points penalty) I think people would be talking about how that was unjust. Sagan did nothing wrong here. Cavendish, of all people, should be the first to realise that. He should also come out and publicly state that. All I've seen from him are comments to the effect of, 'we're no longer friends'. Cavendish is a great competitor, and will be remembered as such. On a human level, not so much.


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    #224
    Steve SilverMint
    Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭Steve SilverMint


    I'm no expert but that seems a very harsh decision to disqualify Sagan.


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    #225
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    1bryan wrote: »
    Cavendish, of all people, should be the first to realise that. He should also come out and publicly state that. All I've seen from him are comments to the effect of, 'we're no longer friends'. Cavendish is a great competitor, and will be remembered as such. On a human level, not so much.

    Immediately after the race he did acknowledge it was part of racing, apart from the elbow which he'd like to ask Sagan about. In the heat of the moment I thought that was pretty human, he was pretty calm and measured given all that just happened and the pain he would have been in.

    It wasn't him that said they're no longer friends, it was Greipel.


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    #226
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,081 ✭✭✭buffalo


    I see recent enough posts mentioning 'the elbow'; it's a red herring - https://twitter.com/dwuori/status/882304141078482946
    Cav's brake hood runs up under Sagan's arm. Looks here like he lifts to disentangle - not an elbow


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    #227
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    1bryan wrote: »
    All I've seen from him are comments to the effect of, 'we're no longer friends'. Cavendish is a great competitor, and will be remembered as such. On a human level, not so much.
    All I saw last night he was pretty much saying it was a racing incident and he and Sagan got one well, but he'd like an explanation of the elbow. About as "bad" as I saw him say was when told of the DQ he went with "the jury has to make it's own decision". I thought he was a lot more reasonable than I might have been with a broken shoulder, due to pain levels rather than a "human level".

    As has been pointed out, it was Griepel who said they were no longer friends. I haven't seen any thing from Cav himself that anyone could have an issue with tbh! Everything I saw was "these things happen"/ "it's racing", but I guess people only see what they want to see to confirm their prejudice!


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    #228
    1bryan
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Immediately after the race he did acknowledge it was part of racing, apart from the elbow which he'd like to ask Sagan about. In the heat of the moment I thought that was pretty human, he was pretty calm and measured given all that just happened and the pain he would have been in.

    It wasn't him that said they're no longer friends, it was Greipel.

    ah, apologies. Crossed wires. In fairness to Greipel, he retracted that afterwards.


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    #229
    cython
    Registered Users Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭cython


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    All I saw last night he was pretty much saying it was a racing incident and he and Sagan got one well, but he'd like an explanation of the elbow. About as "bad" as I saw him say was when told of the DQ he went with "the jury has to make it's own decision". I thought he was a lot more reasonable than I might have been with a broken shoulder, due to pain levels rather than a "human level".

    As has been pointed out, it was Griepel who said they were no longer friends. I haven't seen any thing from Cav himself that anyone could have an issue with tbh! Everything I saw was "these things happen"/ "it's racing", but I guess people only see what they want to see to confirm their prejudice!

    And as has also been pointed out, Greipel took to twitter to basically retract that on viewing the footage in full after the race, and conceded he was wrong in his original assessment.


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    #230
    johny33
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭johny33


    Wasn't it Dimension Data who put in the protest after initial jury decision which was then changed to disqualification?


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    #231
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    johny33 wrote: »
    Wasn't it Dimension Data who put in the protest after initial jury decision which was then changed to disqualification?

    The team, not the company.


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    #232
    equivariant
    Registered Users Posts: 966 ✭✭✭equivariant


    It comes down to the elbow really. If Sagan's elbow hadn't moved, no one would have even suggested DQ - Cav just went for a gap that wasn't there. I can't believe that people are suggesting that Sagan 'didn't hold his line' - its not a club league sprint ffs. If that rule was applied then half the field would be DQ'ed on every single TDF bunch sprint. Demare's swerve across Bouhanni (I think?) was 10 times more dangerous than anything Sagan did in terms of not holding his line. No one is suggesting that Demare be DQ'ed. To me it seems like Sagan moved his elbow as a reaction to contact from Cav - to keep his own balance. I think that the DQ is an incredibly harsh punishment. Its quite comparable to the Bouhanni Matthews incident in Paris-Nice last year (http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/paris-nice-2016/stage-2/results/). Bouhanni was relegated to third in that case. I can't believe that what Sagan did was even as bad as what Bouhanni did in that sprint.


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    #233
    dogsears
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭dogsears


    Presume any result from Sagan's appeal against the DQ would need to be available pretty soon so that he would make the start line today if successful?


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    #234
    johny33
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭johny33


    Weepsie wrote: »
    The team, not the company.

    I know... that was meant as a reply to post saying that Cavendish didn't see anything behind it except an elbow (which looks like it never hit him...)


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    #235
    Keeks
    Registered Users Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭Keeks


    equivariant wrote: »
    Demare's swerve across Bouhanni (I think?)

    To me it looked like the reason Sagan "did not hold his line" was because of this move by Demare, resulting in in Sagan squeezing Cav out, Cav then hitting Sagan and Sagan Flexing his Shoulders and Elbows in a attempt to keep balance.


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    #236
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    dogsears wrote: »
    Presume any result from Sagan's appeal against the DQ would need to be available pretty soon so that he would make the start line today if successful?
    Think it's a late start today, as a short stage. Noon our time?


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    #237
    Finnrocco
    Registered Users Posts: 604 ✭✭✭Finnrocco


    MPFGLB wrote: »
    I knew a couple in Clare ...quite elderly ...who had each other up by the neck over Saipan ....not sure they even liked football

    Is that the pair out of Father Ted?


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    #238
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    johny33 wrote: »
    I know... that was meant as a reply to post saying that Cavendish didn't see anything behind it except an elbow (which looks like it never hit him...)
    But even if the team did appeal, it was hardly Cavendish himself driving it, as he was in the medical room getting stitches/ x rays. ITV coverage had him being told of the DQ on the steps of the medical truck.


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    #239
    oflahero
    Registered Users Posts: 765 ✭✭✭oflahero


    Is there any historical precedent for an appeal overturning a DQ before the next day's race start? While Sagan definitely deserved his initial sanction, the DQ was down to the 'phantom elbow'. Surely cooler heads looking at it now might take a more ambiguous view.


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    #240
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    oflahero wrote: »
    the DQ was down to the 'phantom elbow'.

    Isn't that an assumption people are making, has the official reason been released? Like I said yesterday, immediately after the race there was at least one team manager saying he believed it was Sagan that caused the first crash too, before anyone would have had time to review the helicopter footage. Eurosport then reviewed it later that evening.


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    #241
    cython
    Registered Users Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭cython


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Isn't that an assumption people are making, has the official reason been released? Like I said yesterday, immediately after the race there was at least one team manager saying he believed it was Sagan that caused the first crash too, before anyone would have had time to review the helicopter footage. Eurosport then reviewed it later that evening.

    Well seeing as the jury president said he knew nothing about the earlier crash and that it was down to the manoeuvre in the sprint, no, it's not really an assumption:
    “The jury decided to disqualify Peter Sagan because of the very serious manoeuvre in the sprint. I didn’t know anything about the first crash [at 1.5km out], it’s only about this crash,” Marien continued.


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