Quantity of .22LR Ammo

Cass

Captainaxiom wrote: »

Lads this is some place for creating problems where none exist. If your in any doubt why not just ring the firearms policy unit and get an answer from the source, Instead of this fiction story your all co-writing here.

It's called debate/discussion and it's the sole purpose of the forum. If one person spoke and everyone listened without debate it'd stop being a forum and become a blog.

This topic comes up from time to time and never has a right answer been given because with all the debate and points on both sides only one person can decide it. Not the FPU, but a judge.

It's another one of those pieces of law that is so open to interpretation that i can only see a court case as being the final decider.

I've argued before that your allowance is what is stated on your individual licenses even if you have more than one license of the same caliber. The same arguments above were made to me and while i debated my position i had to cede that it's possible if you were stopped with say 1,000 rounds and had 500 on your rifle and 500 on your pistol that it'd be a hard case for a Garda to prove you were over your limit.

Your license allows you to have the amount of ammo specified on it in your possession. It doesn't say you have to have the firearm with you and it definitely doesn't assign a specific type of round to a license. IOW pistol orientated ammo doesn't have to be for a pistol only and can be used in your rifle if both are .22lr and vice versa.

I would imagine any Garda worth his/her salt would know this and would know that while their interpretation of the law may be different to how you see it bringing it to court would be a loosing battle. Even if the judge thought the limit on your license was specific to the firearm (IOW if you have 500 on pistol and 500 on rifle and were caught out with only the rifle and 1,000 rounds) how would he find you guilty of an offense if you have another license to cover the other 500?

I have multiple licenses in the same caliber so i know the dilemma but frankly i don't even give it a second thought. I have a large enough allowance on all licenses that i've never actually be in possession of the full amount of one license let alone a couple of them. Someone with a lower limit would still be mostly covered. It's only when you get down to the lowest allowance on a license and in a cheap ammo that it might be an issue. I mean how many actually carry thousands of rounds at a time? However a limit of 100 would bring this issue to the fore.

Lastly, and in keeping with what i was talking about on this thread, if people think this would never go to court then think again as it has been. The situation was slightly different, but the charge was breach of license conditions cause they had far more than their license allowed.

Vizzy

Cass wrote: »

I have a large enough allowance on all licenses that i've never actually be in possession of the full amount of one license let alone a couple of them. Someone with a lower limit would still be mostly covered. It's only when you get down to the lowest allowance on a license and in a cheap ammo that it might be an issue. I mean how many actually carry thousands of rounds at a time? However a limit of 100 would bring this issue to the fore.

Lastly, and in keeping with what i was talking about on this thread, if people think this would never go to court then think again as it has been. The situation was slightly different, but the charge was breach of license conditions cause they had far more than their license allowed.

Cass,
I suppose the bit I have bolded above is the important issue i.e. if you have a limit of say 1000 on one particular licence, and you never have the full allwance in your possession ( be that in your bag or in the safe at home), then happy days.
But if, as I mentioned above, you have 2 licences, one with a limit of say 200 and another with a limit of 500,could a Garda interpret that you are limited to the higher limit (500 in this case) or can you "combine" the allowances so that your total allowance is 700 rounds ?.
Must admit, I have been operating on the combined allowances although it would be seldom that I would have more than the allowance on my "largest" licence, but now I'm not so sure.

Luckysasha

The reason I brought up combining licences was because it gives a bit of buying power when buying 1000 rather than 500. I haven't come across any issues with RFDs selling on combined licences. So is it another one of these "it's grand until something goes wrong"

alan0387

As per my original post however what is a reasonable number to put down on a first time license, ignoring the issues of auto issuing 100 rounds?

Sparks

A reasonable number? Depends on what you want to do. I've seen target shooters with tens of thousands of rounds and shotgun wildfowlers with 100 be equally happy with things.

As to definitive answers by the way, nobody in the Gardai - including the FPU - and nobody in the DoJ either - are legally empowered to give you the kind of authoritative answer that people here are looking for. They can tell you what's written in the legislation and they can give you their opinion on what what's in the law means (and some of them wrote it so they have a unique insight on the original intent of the law) but, that's not legally any more authoritative than what you'd read on t'interweb (and some of the people giving opinions there also wrote bits of the law as well).

Yes, if the Garda says "I think it says X" you ought to listen, but that's because he has the legal authority to arrest you on suspicion of having broken the law. And then you go to court and then and only then do you get the 100% absolute, overrules-everybody-else opinion, from the judge (and even then you'd have to take the matter to the supreme court to get a truly final final opinion).



But a wise person would think that they had such a fun hobby in shooting that they didn't need to pick fights with The Man for amusement and they'd just ask for what they needed to get on with that hobby instead of wondering how close to the line they need to come. So if you're doing ISSF air rifle shooting and batch testing ammo, ask for ten thousand rounds, and when your local garda wonders if you're planning world war three, go talk to her and show her an air rifle pellet, an (empty) air rifle tin and the (empty) sleeve it comes in, and point out that batch testing this stuff means a minimum order of ten thousand or so. And if all else fails, buy the ten thousand, have it held by your friendly neighbourhood RFD for a small surcharge and take it out from there in batches of however many thousand your local garda finally comes to peace with having on your licence.

And every year after that, put in an FCA2 to upgrade your limit. And keep doing that.

Cass

Vizzy wrote: »

...... as I mentioned above, you have 2 licences, one with a limit of say 200 and another with a limit of 500,could a Garda interpret that you are limited to the higher limit (500 in this case) or can you "combine" the allowances so that your total allowance is 700 rounds ?.

As i said above i cannot you give a definitive answer only my interpretation.

The law says your license is your lawful permission to have that caliber of ammo in "X" quantity in your possession (ignore how that possession takes form). So you have one license with 200 and another 500 and both are for .22lr ammunition. Now if you use that ammo, in the pistol or rifle is irrelevant. Your intent of it's use is not an issue only that you are legally covered to have said amount in that caliber.

Now for your scenario. You are stopped by a Garda. He sees you have 700 rounds and asks for your license(s). You hand him the pistol one with say 200 on it and the rifle one with say 500 on it. It's all the same caliber and the total amount is in keeping with the total amount of both licenses. He asks you where the rifle is as you only have the pistol with you. You explain it's at home. He ask why you have 700 when the license you "intend to use" (being the pistol one) only allows you to have 200. You explain the other license allows you to have 500 rounds for the rifle in your possession but the law does not make having the firearm the ammo is for in your possession, a prerequisite.

Now the Garda has o weigh up his options. So far you have broken no law. You are within the allowance of your licenses, the law does not say you have to have the gun AND ammo with you (IOW always together) and if he brings this to court will the judge see it your way or will the judge deem that having the ammo for the rifle when you don't have the rifle somehow breaks the "spirit" of the licenses and is in fact a loophole method for getting around a lower allowance on your pistol.

Now it's in the judges hands.

............... but now I'm not so sure.

You're not alone.

The scenario i played out above screams, to me, that you are legally entitled to do that very thing. However as i said in my post earlier today it's all about interpretation and the FPUs, mine, and yours don't count for spit. Only a judge's.

Cass wrote:

This topic comes up from time to time and never has a right answer been given because with all the debate and points on both sides only one person can decide it. Not the FPU, but a judge.

alan0387 wrote: »

As per my original post however what is a reasonable number to put down on a first time license, ignoring the issues of auto issuing 100 rounds?

For atrget shooting i'd ask for 1,000 and for hunting about 500 to 750.

The reason most get the 100 is for two reasons:
A clerical mistake by the processing Garda

1. Not supplying a letter of support to explain why you need the amount you request.

If you follow number 2 and explain why you want it i cannot see why you would be given less except in the case of number 1.

BattleCorp

One thing to note when looking for a large ammo allowance is not to just stick down a figure on the form. Put in a letter with the application stating the reasons why you need x amount of ammo.

My application forms are the size of novels with all the paperwork I include and I've gotten reasonably close to the large ammo amounts that I requested.