Tailgating and Undertaking on Motorways

Henry Ford III

Again a UK link (I know I know) but at least it shows they are serious with dealing with poor lane discipline and careless driving.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/86203/police-stop-over-5000-drivers-lane-hogging-and-tailgating

pablo128

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Again a UK link (I know I know) but at least it shows they are serious with dealing with poor lane discipline and careless driving.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/86203/police-stop-over-5000-drivers-lane-hogging-and-tailgating

Good for them. If our Traffic corps took the same approach, there would be no need to undertake.

Henry Ford III

pablo128 wrote: »

Good for them. If our Traffic corps took the same approach, there would be no need to undertake.

Ah the old "lane hogger forced me to do it" nugget

First Up

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Ah the old "lane hogger forced me to do it" nugget

That being the point. Lane hoggers preventing motorways from being used properly create dangerous situations and leave others with difficult choices.

Blame the culprit, not the victim.

Sean Kinvarra

magentis wrote: »

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

What Do the Words Must and should in the UK Highway Code Mean?
UK Highway Code Wording is explained in the introduction of Highway Code. Still, test takers often have a vague idea about what the words in the official UK Highway Code actually mean.

Understand that some words are more important than others. Pay special attention to rules where the word mustmust and must not are more likely to show up on your UK driving theory test.

It amazes me the amount of people that don't have an idea what the wordings mean. Do Not does NOT mean Must Not.

Seriously.

Please DO NOT and you MUST NOT try and apply the "highway code"in IRELAND as it means NOTHING here.

You are spot on there. Those words mean nothing here yet are clearly explained in the Introduction to Rules of the Road.

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

That being the point. Lane hoggers preventing motorways from being used properly create dangerous situations and leave others with difficult choices.

Blame the culprit, not the victim.

The culprit being the one who passed on the left when it was not legal to do so?

I agree.

First Up

GreeBo wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

That being the point. Lane hoggers preventing motorways from being used properly create dangerous situations and leave others with difficult choices.

Blame the culprit, not the victim.

The culprit being the one who passed on the left when it was not legal to do so?

I agree.

Agree with yourself all you want. The culprit is the person who causes the problem. Eliminating that sorts everything else. Or do you think papering over cracks is a good idea too?

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

Agree with yourself all you want. The culprit is the person who causes the problem. Eliminating that sorts everything else. Or do you think papering over cracks is a good idea too?

Its not papering over cracks, its enforcement of the traffic laws, for both of the people who are breaching them in the example.

If you kill a burgler who is otherwise no thread to you what happens to you?
You dont get a free hand to do what you want just because they broke the law first.

micks_address

GreeBo wrote: »

Its not papering over cracks, its enforcement of the traffic laws, for both of the people who are breaching them in the example.

If you kill a burgler who is otherwise no thread to you what happens to you?
You dont get a free hand to do what you want just because they broke the law first.

I don't agree with lane hogging but is it lane hogging if you doing 105km on the m50 overtaking traffic and someone behind you is obviously charging up behind you at 120? Average speed cameras on the m50 like what's in the port tunnel would sort out a lot of this behaviour

GreeBo

micks_address wrote: »

I don't agree with lane hogging but is it lane hogging if you doing 105km on the m50 overtaking traffic and someone behind you is obviously charging up behind you at 120? Average speed cameras on the m50 like what's in the port tunnel would sort out a lot of this behaviour

Its not lane hogging if you are overtaking someone.
It is lane hogging if you could safely pull in and let the other person overtake you, irrespective of what speed they are doing.

First Up

GreeBo wrote: »

Its not papering over cracks, its enforcement of the traffic laws, for both of the people who are breaching them in the example.

If you kill a burgler who is otherwise no thread to you what happens to you?
You dont get a free hand to do what you want just because they broke the law first.

I'm not advocating breaking the law.

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

I'm not advocating breaking the law.

You are advocating passing lane hoggers on the left.
Thats against the Road Traffic Act.

First Up

GreeBo wrote: »

You are advocating passing lane hoggers on the left.
Thats against the Road Traffic Act.

Not always, as has been carefully (and repeatedly) explained to you.

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

Not always, as has been carefully (and repeatedly) explained to you.

Likewise.
If you are passing a single or even a couple of cars you are breaking the law.
None of the exceptions apply.

I'm not going to go over it again, but queuing and slow-moving traffic have been explained multiple times.

First Up

GreeBo wrote: »

Likewise.
If you are passing a single or even a couple of cars you are breaking the law.
None of the exceptions apply.

I'm not going to go over it again, but queuing and slow-moving traffic have been explained multiple times.

That's not what I've been explaining. Maybe do an advanced driving course and you might understand.

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

That's not what I've been explaining. Maybe do an advanced driving course and you might understand.

Sure you haven't. I dont know how I took that from your post below.:rolleyes:

First Up wrote: »

That being the point. Lane hoggers preventing motorways from being used properly create dangerous situations and leave others with difficult choices.

Blame the culprit, not the victim.

I'm still waiting on that link to show any advanced driving course which advocates breaking the law btw.

plodder

I think three lane motorways like the M50 weren't really anticipated when the law was formulated. The interpretation of "slow moving traffic" as "stop/start" seems out of date as well. You can have three lanes moving reasonably smoothly on the M50, but for various reasons the speed in each lane goes up and down, with the result that (according to some people) all traffic in the left lane would be breaking the law, if they end up passing the traffic to their right, on occasion. This could easily be happening at >50km/h. It might be better to redefine the exception to the no undertaking rule in terms of congestion rather than speed.

First Up

GreeBo wrote: »

Sure you haven't. I dont know how I took that from your post below.:rolleyes:



I'm still waiting on that link to show any advanced driving course which advocates breaking the law btw.

Advanced driving courses teach you assess situations, anticipate outcomes and take the quickest and safest action in the circumstances. Good drivers know to do this anyway but in your case, I recommend a beginners course.

First Up

plodder wrote: »

I think three lane motorways like the M50 weren't really anticipated when the law was formulated. The interpretation of "slow moving traffic" as "stop/start" seems out of date as well. You can have three lanes moving reasonably smoothly on the M50, but for various reasons the speed in each lane goes up and down, with the result that (according to some people) all traffic in the left lane would be breaking the law, if they end up passing the traffic to their right, on occasion. This could easily be happening at >50km/h. It might be better to redefine the exception to the no undertaking rule in terms of congestion rather than speed.

Nobody (well not me anyway) is invoking the stop/start situation. On a busy (say M50 at rush hour) road, the overtake/undertake description doesn't apply. On a crowded motorway I am also happy for people to use the middle or even third lane to avoid tailbacks approaching exits. That is just common sense and road sense.

The undertake issue arises when someone is sitting in the middle lane at an unreasonably slow speed, preventing the road from being used in the intended way. This leads to traffic being backed up in Lanes 1 and 2, forcing more cars into Lane 3 than is safe, resulting in more lane changes than is wise and causing bad decisions or bad judgement resulting in accidents. In those circumstances, the option of continuing in the driving lane at a speed faster than the lane hogger is sometimes the right one.

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

In those circumstances, the option of continuing in the driving lane at a speed faster than the lane hogger is sometimes the right one.

But never the legal one.

First Up

GreeBo wrote: »

But never the legal one.

Please go to a driving school.

Sean Kinvarra

GreeBo wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

In those circumstances, the option of continuing in the driving lane at a speed faster than the lane hogger is sometimes the right one.

But never the legal one.

You are saying it's illegal to undertake, then why isn't it illegal for bikers to lane filter?

Sean Kinvarra

GreeBo wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

In those circumstances, the option of continuing in the driving lane at a speed faster than the lane hogger is sometimes the right one.

But never the legal one.

You are saying it's illegal to undertake, then why isn't it illegal for bikers to lane filter?

Grolschevik

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

You are saying it's illegal to undertake, then why isn't it illegal for bikers to lane filter?

Because filtering (is supposed to only) occur(s) in stopped, queued, or slow-moving traffic, which are allowable conditions for passing on the left.

Sean Kinvarra

plodder wrote: »

I think three lane motorways like the M50 weren't really anticipated when the law was formulated. The interpretation of "slow moving traffic" as "stop/start" seems out of date as well. You can have three lanes moving reasonably smoothly on the M50, but for various reasons the speed in each lane goes up and down, with the result that (according to some people) all traffic in the left lane would be breaking the law, if they end up passing the traffic to their right, on occasion. This could easily be happening at >50km/h. It might be better to redefine the exception to the no undertaking rule in terms of congestion rather than speed.

Happens when bus lanes are not in use and you'll see buses and taxis passing slower moving traffic that stay in outside lane. Where are the Gardai if its illegal?

Sean Kinvarra

Grolschevik wrote: »

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

You are saying it's illegal to undertake, then why isn't it illegal for bikers to lane filter?

Because filtering (is supposed to only) occur(s) in stopped, queued, or slow-moving traffic, which are allowable conditions for passing on the left.

RSA; Response on filtering in Ireland

I e-mailed the RSA last week to ask what was the official stance on filtering. This is the response.

Dear Mike,

Motorcycle Lane Filtering should only be carried out by trained and
experienced motorcyclists and should never be attempted by novices or
newcomers.

It requires intense concentration and awareness, high levels of
observation, machine handling and anticipatory skills and should be done
in a considerate manner.

While there is no legal definition of filtering in the Road Traffic Act,
motorcycle riders may be prosecuted under the Road Traffic Act for:-
Riding a motorcycle in a dangerous manner, riding without due care and
attention to other road users, *breaking the speed limit while filtering*
etc. It would be at the discretion of an Garda at the time, as to what
section of the road traffic act, the rider may be prosecuted under.


Regards

Patricia McAloon
Secretariat
Note it says a biker may be prosecuted "while breaking the speed limit while filtering". It says nothing about stopped traffic or slow moving traffic.

Grolschevik

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

RSA; Response on filtering in Ireland

I e-mailed the RSA last week to ask what was the official stance on filtering. This is the response.

Dear Mike,

Motorcycle Lane Filtering should only be carried out by trained and
experienced motorcyclists and should never be attempted by novices or
newcomers.

It requires intense concentration and awareness, high levels of
observation, machine handling and anticipatory skills and should be done
in a considerate manner.

While there is no legal definition of filtering in the Road Traffic Act,
motorcycle riders may be prosecuted under the Road Traffic Act for:-
Riding a motorcycle in a dangerous manner, riding without due care and
attention to other road users, *breaking the speed limit while filtering*
etc. It would be at the discretion of an Garda at the time, as to what
section of the road traffic act, the rider may be prosecuted under.


Regards

Patricia McAloon
Secretariat
Note it says a biker may be prosecuted "while breaking the speed limit while filtering". It says nothing about stopped traffic or slow moving traffic.

And further on in the discussion you googled it says

Re: RSA; Response on filtering in Ireland

Well, it's funny you say that.
I asked that question as well.

This was the response.
Motorcycles are not permitted by Law to use Bus Lanes during the hours
of operation, stated on the information signs posted at the beginning of
each bus lane. They may be used outside of the hours posted, however
motorcyclist should be aware that they must remain within the speed
limit at all times when using bus lanes.[/quote]

the only difference between us n cages is we can hop back into a line of traffic out of a buses way, if we somehow manage to ever get in its way in the first place, not likely. thats the only reason some gards might overlook but taking from that its fairly clear it's as illegal to do as any other road users bar buses and taxis


When bus lanes are not in operation, all traffic can use them. Doesn't mean that passing traffic on the left is suddenly legal.

GM228

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

RSA; Response on filtering in Ireland

I e-mailed the RSA last week to ask what was the official stance on filtering. This is the response.

Dear Mike,

Motorcycle Lane Filtering should only be carried out by trained and
experienced motorcyclists and should never be attempted by novices or
newcomers.

It requires intense concentration and awareness, high levels of
observation, machine handling and anticipatory skills and should be done
in a considerate manner.

While there is no legal definition of filtering in the Road Traffic Act,
motorcycle riders may be prosecuted under the Road Traffic Act for:-
Riding a motorcycle in a dangerous manner, riding without due care and
attention to other road users, *breaking the speed limit while filtering*
etc. It would be at the discretion of an Garda at the time, as to what
section of the road traffic act, the rider may be prosecuted under.


Regards

Patricia McAloon
Secretariat
Note it says a biker may be prosecuted "while breaking the speed limit while filtering". It says nothing about stopped traffic or slow moving traffic.

Actually it says "....while breaking the speed limit while filtering etc", the part in bold is important - their list is not exhaustive.

Sean Kinvarra

Grolschevik wrote: »

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

RSA; Response on filtering in Ireland

I e-mailed the RSA last week to ask what was the official stance on filtering. This is the response.

Dear Mike,

Motorcycle Lane Filtering should only be carried out by trained and
experienced motorcyclists and should never be attempted by novices or
newcomers.

It requires intense concentration and awareness, high levels of
observation, machine handling and anticipatory skills and should be done
in a considerate manner.

While there is no legal definition of filtering in the Road Traffic Act,
motorcycle riders may be prosecuted under the Road Traffic Act for:-
Riding a motorcycle in a dangerous manner, riding without due care and
attention to other road users, *breaking the speed limit while filtering*
etc. It would be at the discretion of an Garda at the time, as to what
section of the road traffic act, the rider may be prosecuted under.


Regards

Patricia McAloon
Secretariat
Note it says a biker may be prosecuted "while breaking the speed limit while filtering". It says nothing about stopped traffic or slow moving traffic.

And further on in the discussion you googled it says

Re: RSA; Response on filtering in Ireland

Well, it's funny you say that.
I asked that question as well.

This was the response.
Motorcycles are not permitted by Law to use Bus Lanes during the hours
of operation, stated on the information signs posted at the beginning of
each bus lane. They may be used outside of the hours posted, however
motorcyclist should be aware that they must remain within the speed
limit at all times when using bus lanes.

the only difference between us n cages is we can hop back into a line of traffic out of a buses way, if we somehow manage to ever get in its way in the first place, not likely. thats the only reason some gards might overlook but taking from that its fairly clear it's as illegal to do as any other road users bar buses and taxis


When bus lanes are not in operation, all traffic can use them. Doesn't mean that passing traffic on the left is suddenly legal.[/quote]
Buses overtake on left when lane not in use every day on every road in Dublin. Have you ever come across a bus being pulled in for this?

GreeBo

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

Buses overtake on left when lane not in use every day on every road in Dublin. Have you ever come across a bus being pulled in for this?

Seriously, you haven't a clue mate.

When the bus lane is not in use for regular traffic...its...wait for it....not a regular traffic lane!

Hence, the bus is not overtaking illegally, its on an entirely separate carriageway.

Night Falls

GreeBo wrote: »

Seriously, you haven't a clue mate.

When the bus lane is not in use for regular traffic...its...wait for it....not a regular traffic lane!

Hence, the bus is not overtaking illegally, its on an entirely separate carriageway.

To be fair I'm not sure that was what he was saying. When a bus lane is not in operation (i.e. it's a bus lane only between, say, 07:00 - 19:00 rather than a 24 hour bus lane) it is a regular lane of traffic and the usual rules around "undertaking" should apply. Whether those rules in practice are actually applied or not is a different question, but that could be argued of any number of different issues and still doesn't make it right.

Edit, this is assuming that traffic in the normal lane is free-flowing.

GM228

GreeBo wrote: »

Hence, the bus is not overtaking illegally, its on an entirely separate carriageway.

Bus lanes are not separate carriageways, they are just seperate lanes.

Also to note is that the rules for overtaking do not depend on there being separate lanes or carriageways.

Sean Kinvarra

GreeBo wrote: »

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

Buses overtake on left when lane not in use every day on every road in Dublin. Have you ever come across a bus being pulled in for this?

Seriously, you haven't a clue mate.

When the bus lane is not in use for regular traffic...its...wait for it....not a regular traffic lane!

Hence, the bus is not overtaking illegally, its on an entirely separate carriageway.

No its not a separate carriageway. When its not in use it becomes an extra lane for all traffic. You certainly don't drive if you think it's a seperate carraigeway.

GreeBo

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

No its not a separate carriageway. When its not in use it becomes an extra lane for all traffic. You certainly don't drive if you think it's a seperate carraigeway.

When its in use its effectively a separate carriage, regular traffic is not allowed to use it, hence buses etc are not overtaking.

Isambard

wow, are you still feeding him?

Sean Kinvarra

GreeBo wrote: »

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

No its not a separate carriageway. When its not in use it becomes an extra lane for all traffic. You certainly don't drive if you think it's a seperate carraigeway.

When its in use its effectively a separate carriage, regular traffic is not allowed to use it, hence buses etc are not overtaking.

I said "WHEN IT'S NOT IN USE" . Don't be trying to get out of this one. I suppose you'll say most of Thomas St is a triple carraigeway.

Sean Kinvarra

GreeBo wrote: »

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

No its not a separate carriageway. When its not in use it becomes an extra lane for all traffic. You certainly don't drive if you think it's a seperate carraigeway.

When its in use its effectively a separate carriage, regular traffic is not allowed to use it, hence buses etc are not overtaking.

What about the Long Mile Rd, I suppose you'll tell us that's a quadruple carraigeway? Think your best before date has long gone!

GreeBo

Isambard wrote: »

wow, are you still feeding him?

Some people also feed pigeons!

Sean Kinvarra

Isambard wrote: »

wow, are you still feeding him?

Yes, peanuts!

Dravokivich

GreeBo wrote: »

When its in use its effectively a separate carriage, regular traffic is not allowed to use it, hence buses etc are not overtaking.

No it isn't. It's just a lane I'm not permitted to use within it's allocated times.

Sean Kinvarra

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Irish Steve wrote: »

The simplest solution would be to use the same concept as the Americans do, I don't read regularly of mega crashes on their freeways, and they take the line of least resistance, pass on either side if there's a vehicle moving slowly. At least if it was official. people should be prepared for changes either side of them.

+1
Not just the US, same operates here in NZ on multi lane roads, though there is a general keep left rule as well.

You don't have to go that far away. That rule applies to the whole of the UK. Also Poland. Hungary, Germany.

First Up

Listening to AA traffic reports in the past few days, I've noted a number of motorway accidents - all in the right lane. That ought to help people join the dots.

Sean Kinvarra

First Up wrote: »

Listening to AA traffic reports in the past few days, I've noted a number of motorway accidents - all in the right lane. That ought to help people join the dots.

Have to laugh at some of the commenters on here. They say its legal and safe to drive alongside a hogger on your right, But its illegal and dangerous to move a few mtrs ahead where the hogger wouldl have a clear view of you.

Dakota Dan

First Up wrote: »

Listening to AA traffic reports in the past few days, I've noted a number of motorway accidents - all in the right lane. That ought to help people join the dots.

There was a young fella driving a 2005 corolla on the m7 yesterday, driving in the overtaking lane and s few miles on he was in the driving lane doing 30kph while he was eating a sandwich :rolleyes:

Sean Kinvarra

Dakota Dan wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Listening to AA traffic reports in the past few days, I've noted a number of motorway accidents - all in the right lane. That ought to help people join the dots.

There was a young fella driving a 2005 corolla on the m7 yesterday, driving in the overtaking lane and s few miles on he was in the driving lane doing 30kph while he was eating a sandwich :rolleyes:

The traffic must have been "very very slow moving"

Sean Kinvarra

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Irish Steve wrote: »

The simplest solution would be to use the same concept as the Americans do, I don't read regularly of mega crashes on their freeways, and they take the line of least resistance, pass on either side if there's a vehicle moving slowly. At least if it was official. people should be prepared for changes either side of them.

+1
Not just the US, same operates here in NZ on multi lane roads, though there is a general keep left rule as well.

You don't have to go that far away. That rule applies to the whole of the UK. Also Poland. Hungary, Germany.

...also Switzerland!

Sean Kinvarra

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Irish Steve wrote: »

The simplest solution would be to use the same concept as the Americans do, I don't read regularly of mega crashes on their freeways, and they take the line of least resistance, pass on either side if there's a vehicle moving slowly. At least if it was official. people should be prepared for changes either side of them.

+1
Not just the US, same operates here in NZ on multi lane roads, though there is a general keep left rule as well.

You don't have to go that far away. That rule applies to the whole of the UK. Also Poland. Hungary, Germany.

...also Switzerland!