Tailgating and Undertaking on Motorways

Irish Steve

Undertaking is NOT legal in the UK and NI if a lane change is needed to perform it, when congested, remaining in the lane and passing slower traffic on the right is acceptable, but changing lanes or weaving lanes is not. The same basic rule of overtake on the right still applies

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/motorways-253-273,

http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/answers/can-you-overtake-on-the-nearside-of-another-vehicle

flaneur

I suspect that first link from NI Direct is very rarely visited, if my last trip up north was anything to go by!

Also, what is with the NI habit of passing then pulling in almost on your bonnet with no indicator use?!?

This island in general needs a LOT more traffic enforcement in both jurisdictions.

BeardySi

flaneur wrote: »

Also, what is with the NI habit of passing then pulling in almost on your bonnet with no indicator use?!?.

It comes with the accent. That's why it never happens anywhere else. Ever....

TBH the standard of motorway driving is just as bad in NI as the rest of the island. As is the lack of training and enforcement.

Both are better in GB as there's more enforcement on the motorways (cameras and police vehicles) and generally you get some training on motorway driving in lessons as there are many dual carriageway A roads that are close to motorway spec and legal for L drivers (albeit at a max of 55mph).

Sean Kinvarra

Irish Steve wrote: »

Undertaking is NOT legal in the UK and NI if a lane change is needed to perform it, when congested, remaining in the lane and passing slower traffic on the right is acceptable, but changing lanes or weaving lanes is not. The same basic rule of overtake on the right still applies

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/motorways-253-273,

http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/answers/can-you-overtake-on-the-nearside-of-another-vehicle

Had you read the Introduction and Wordings of the Highway Code you would have noticed that the words used in Rule 268 states you "Do Not". These words are only advisory. For it to be mandatory the words *MUST NOT" have to be used, and nowhere will you see those words used.
https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/undertaking-is-not-illegal/

Sean Kinvarra

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

Irish Steve wrote: »

Undertaking is NOT legal in the UK and NI if a lane change is needed to perform it, when congested, remaining in the lane and passing slower traffic on the right is acceptable, but changing lanes or weaving lanes is not. The same basic rule of overtake on the right still applies

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/motorways-253-273,

http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/answers/can-you-overtake-on-the-nearside-of-another-vehicle

Had you read the Introduction and Wordings of the Highway Code you would have noticed that the words used in Rule 268 states you "Do Not". These words are only advisory. For it to be mandatory the words *MUST NOT" have to be used, and nowhere will you see those words used.
https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/undertaking-is-not-illegal/

BTW it has been legal to undertake in UK since 1972.

Sean Kinvarra

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

Irish Steve wrote: »

Undertaking is NOT legal in the UK and NI if a lane change is needed to perform it, when congested, remaining in the lane and passing slower traffic on the right is acceptable, but changing lanes or weaving lanes is not. The same basic rule of overtake on the right still applies

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/motorways-253-273,

http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/answers/can-you-overtake-on-the-nearside-of-another-vehicle

Had you read the Introduction and Wordings of the Highway Code you would have noticed that the words used in Rule 268 states you "Do Not". These words are only advisory. For it to be mandatory the words *MUST NOT" have to be used, and nowhere will you see those words used.
https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/undertaking-is-not-illegal/

BTW it has been legal to undertake in UK since 1972.

Sean Kinvarra

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

Irish Steve wrote: »

Undertaking is NOT legal in the UK and NI if a lane change is needed to perform it, when congested, remaining in the lane and passing slower traffic on the right is acceptable, but changing lanes or weaving lanes is not. The same basic rule of overtake on the right still applies

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/motorways-253-273,

http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/answers/can-you-overtake-on-the-nearside-of-another-vehicle

Had you read the Introduction and Wordings of the Highway Code you would have noticed that the words used in Rule 268 states you "Do Not". These words are only advisory. For it to be mandatory the words *MUST NOT" have to be used, and nowhere will you see those words used.
https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/undertaking-is-not-illegal/

BTW it has been legal to undertake in UK since 1972.

Sean Kinvarra

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

Irish Steve wrote: »

Undertaking is NOT legal in the UK and NI if a lane change is needed to perform it, when congested, remaining in the lane and passing slower traffic on the right is acceptable, but changing lanes or weaving lanes is not. The same basic rule of overtake on the right still applies

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/motorways-253-273,

http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/answers/can-you-overtake-on-the-nearside-of-another-vehicle

Had you read the Introduction and Wordings of the Highway Code you would have noticed that the words used in Rule 268 states you "Do Not". These words are only advisory. For it to be mandatory the words *MUST NOT" have to be used, and nowhere will you see those words used.
https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/undertaking-is-not-illegal/

BTW it has been legal to undertake in UK since 1972.

Isambard

nonsense nonsense nonsense nonsense.

their rules are much the same as ours.....congested conditions etc....

The Highway code is not Law

Sean Kinvarra

Isambard wrote: »

nonsense nonsense nonsense nonsense.

their rules are much the same as ours.....congested conditions etc....

The Highway code is not Law

I assume your comment is in response to mine. If so then it is a perfect example of what I was saying about people not reading the Wordings and understanding the Rules on driving. Most of the rules in the HC are not law but advice, ie Rule 268. You don't seem to understand the difference between "do not" and "must not" Can you tell me what law in the RTA that says it's illegal to pass on inside, and what offence is it under? Where the highway code uses the words "Must/Must Not" it IS law. And as you said" their rules are much the same as ours"

Isambard

can you show me where it says it is legal?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

GreeBo wrote: »

That leads to frequent, abrupt lane changes, over-breaking and then gridlock.
The most economical use of lanes is for slower traffic to stay on the left, faster traffic on the right and everyone to drive in the driving lane unless overtaking.

wtf is a driving lane?

Charles Babbage

Ayleen Damp Saltshaker wrote: »

wtf is a driving lane?

The lane you should be driving in, unless overtaking.

First Up

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Ayleen Damp Saltshaker wrote: »

wtf is a driving lane?

The lane you should be driving in, unless overtaking.

I.e the left or inside lane.

Cookie_Monster

GreeBo wrote: »

By that logic any car on a single lane carriageway is blocking other drivers.
You are free to drive in the driving lane as long as you are travelling at or above the minimum speed limit for the road.

of which we have none.

However there is a rule about maintaining sufficient progress, just zero enforcement of it.

Sean Kinvarra

Isambard wrote: »

can you show me where it says it is legal?

I've sent this link already. You should have read it.
https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/undertaking-is-not-illegal/
I have also explained the use of the words in the HC. For a rule to be advisory the words "Do Not" are used. For it to be law the words "Must Not" are used. Read the rule that deals with overtaking on the left, Rule 268 and tell me what words are used??? But before you do you should read the Introduction and Wordings of the Highway Code. Jesus, this is not rocket science!

Sean Kinvarra

GreeBo wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Yet you are doing something exactly because of someone else.

An important part of good driving is being aware of how your actions impact others. If you insist on blocking Lane 1 because someone is also slowing Lane 2, then you are contributing to a situation that will cause more manouvers than necessary and thereby increase the risk of accidents.

Its impossible to block the driving lane by driving in it, there are 1 if not 2 over taking lanes.

First Up wrote: »

I'm not talking about switching into lane 1 to undertake but it is legal for traffic in Lane 1 to move faster than traffic in Lanes 2 or 3. If all three lanes are full there nothing inherently dangerous or wrong about continuing in Lane 1 at a faster pace than Lane 2.

Its illegal to overtake on the left unless traffic is "slow moving".
Moving slower is not the same as slow moving.

Whether or not you were always in lane 1 or switched into lane 1 is irrelevant.
Its often incorrectly brought up to defect overtaking on the left but its hogwash.

Overtaking is passing someone, what lane you do it in or what lane you started in has zero bearing.

"Slow moving traffic" Up to what speed. on a 120kmh motorway is that? 10kmh? 20, 30, 60, 100kmh? Normal speed is the speed limit. So until there is a legal interpretation of SMT, like the UK it is legal. If you are being passed by another driver to your left then along with hogging, which in a criminal offence, you are moving too slow for that lane, which it the same as slow moving.

Dravokivich

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

of which we have none.

However there is a rule about maintaining sufficient progress, just zero enforcement of it.

There are roads with a minimum maximum speed. I think this is what they were talking about.

flaneur

The two most dangerous issues I encounter here are (in order of risk).

1. Inability to merge properly. There are still a small % of drivers out there who will attempt to join a motorway as if there's no merge lane at all. They crawl hesitantly out and stop then turn into the driving lane when they see a gap and look absolutely terrified (and rightly so given what they're doing!). That skill needs to be taught with a public information campaign, as it's clearly lost on a small % of drivers.

2. No lane discipline. People driving along in the overtaking lane wondering why there are cars building up behind them. I don't know what's going on in their heads to think that they should be in that lane in the first place, if they're not overtaking. Then they get stuck as cars give up and undertake them.


Followed by less common but dangerous :

3. Tailgating - There's often inexcusable stuff where people will drive just far too close at speed or drive up close instead of overtaking. Keep your distance and pass if you want to.

4. Being unaware of merging traffic.

GreeBo

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

"Slow moving traffic" Up to what speed. on a 120kmh motorway is that? 10kmh? 20, 30, 60, 100kmh? Normal speed is the speed limit. So until there is a legal interpretation of SMT, like the UK it is legal. If you are being passed by another driver to your left then along with hogging, which in a criminal offence, you are moving too slow for that lane, which it the same as slow moving.

That's some fine logic there Ted.

Slow-moving is not a relative term, so the speed limit or speed of other cars is irrelevant.

moving without much speed; moving very slowly

GreeBo

Ayleen Damp Saltshaker wrote: »

wtf is a driving lane?

How on earth do you not know what a driving lane is?

Dravokivich

GreeBo wrote: »

How on earth do you not know what a driving lane is?

You've given the same lane 2 distinct labels in your comment. (on Left / Driving lane) He's challenging that.

GreeBo

Dravokivich wrote: »

You've given the same lane 2 distinct labels in your comment. (on Left / Driving lane) He's challenging that.

No, he is asking "what is a driving lane"

In any case, I only label one lane, the driving lane.

I do state that slower traffic should be left and faster traffic to the right, that's not defining or choosing a single lane as in both cases you could be in the middle lane.

plodder

Irish Steve wrote: »

The simplest solution would be to use the same concept as the Americans do, I don't read regularly of mega crashes on their freeways, and they take the line of least resistance, pass on either side if there's a vehicle moving slowly. At least if it was official. people should be prepared for changes either side of them.

If we had more 3 or 4+ lane DCs then that would happen. The idea of a single "driving lane" in that scenario is absurd. The same applies on the M50 when it's busy. There are three driving lanes in that situation, whether people want to accept that or not, it's the case.

The problem is that most of our motorway network is 2x2 lane and not particularly busy. In that situation, it's harder to justify changing the current rule of keeping left and only overtaking on the right. When these two lane motorways do get busy, that's when the dangerous tail-gating starts. Everyone basically wants to overtake everyone else. So, all traffic ends up in the right lane, until you get a few horsing up the left lane because it's empty and you get the tailgaters then making sure the vehicles in the left lane can't get in. Even without the rule breakers in the left lane, the desire to get past everyone else, tends to cause tailgating.

Personally, I think the answer is proper speed enforcement. On the M50, the problem will disappear as soon as they bring in variable speed limits and automated avg speed enforcement. The latter works very well in the port tunnel. I don't see why it wouldn't work on the rest of the motorway network as well. Put cameras at every junction and a few other places. That'd sort it out quick enough.

Sean Kinvarra

siobhan08 wrote: »

So been working in Dublin for the first time the last week, so I have been up and down the motorways. I've really noticed how fond drivers are of tailgating other drivers and undercutting them if they don't move in fast enough.

Happened to me twice and seen it happen to a few other drivers.

The two drivers who did it do me both tried to get in front of me when coming up to the express lane at the toll by moving over early and going over the white lines at the very start of the lane while I waiting until the arrow that directs you to move over.

After the toll I stayed in the overtaking lane as I was overtaking a few other cars and both were so far up my back that If I braked suddenly It would have caused a serious crash. I was going a good bit over the speed limit and it still wasn't good enough for them.

When I was finished overtaking and intended to move over they didn't give me a chance and just flew up on my inside. Only saw them when I looked in my wing mirror to check the distance from the car I had just overtaken before starting to move over.

One was a van and other was car, the van in particular was going so fast I wouldn't be suprised if he wasn't too far off 180km when they went by me. They would have killed themselves or somebody else going the speeds they were if they crashed.

Is this a common occurance around commuting time?

Was shocked at the risks drivers took simply becase they were impatient.

If cars are undercutting you, I assume you mean undertaking you, then you are committing the offence of lane hogging.

degsie

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

If cars are undercutting you, I assume you mean undertaking you, then you are committing the offence of lane hogging.

And an admission of speeding to-boot! :eek:

Sean Kinvarra

GreeBo wrote: »

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

"Slow moving traffic" Up to what speed. on a 120kmh motorway is that? 10kmh? 20, 30, 60, 100kmh? Normal speed is the speed limit. So until there is a legal interpretation of SMT, like the UK it is legal. If you are being passed by another driver to your left then along with hogging, which in a criminal offence, you are moving too slow for that lane, which it the same as slow moving.

That's some fine logic there Ted.

Slow-moving is not a relative term, so the speed limit or speed of other cars is irrelevant.

moving without much speed; moving very slowly

Then tell me why is this term "slow moving traffic" used in the Irish Statute Book?
Correct in saying the speed of other cars is irrelevant. If a vehicle to my right is moving slower than me I will undertake. Not only on motorways but on any multi lane road.

Sean Kinvarra

GreeBo wrote: »

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

"Slow moving traffic" Up to what speed. on a 120kmh motorway is that? 10kmh? 20, 30, 60, 100kmh? Normal speed is the speed limit. So until there is a legal interpretation of SMT, like the UK it is legal. If you are being passed by another driver to your left then along with hogging, which in a criminal offence, you are moving too slow for that lane, which it the same as slow moving.

That's some fine logic there Ted.

Slow-moving is not a relative term, so the speed limit or speed of other cars is irrelevant.

moving without much speed; moving very slowly

Then tell me why is this term "slow moving traffic" used in the Irish Statute Book?
Correct in saying the speed of other cars is irrelevant. If a vehicle to my right is moving slower than me I will undertake. Not only on motorways but on any multi lane road.

Dravokivich

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

Then tell me why is this term "slow moving traffic" used in the Irish Statute Book?
Correct in saying the speed of other cars is irrelevant. If a vehicle to my right is moving slower than me I will undertake. Not only on motorways but on any multi lane road.

Is 80 km/h slow?

GreeBo

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

Then tell me why is this term "slow moving traffic" used in the Irish Statute Book?
Correct in saying the speed of other cars is irrelevant. If a vehicle to my right is moving slower than me I will undertake. Not only on motorways but on any multi lane road.

Why wouldn't it be used, it's meaning is clear, you are misinterpreting it to mean slower.

TheChizler

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

If cars are undercutting you, I assume you mean undertaking you, then you are committing the offence of lane hogging.

Or just leaving proper space between them and the cat they've just overtaken, instead of dangerously cutting in. 2 second rule and all that.

degsie

TheChizler wrote: »

Or just leaving proper space between them and the cat they've just overtaken, instead of dangerously cutting in. 2 second rule and all that.

Thinking formula 1 style "meeeeaaaaaowwwww"

Cookie_Monster

Dravokivich wrote: »

There are roads with a minimum maximum speed. I think this is what they were talking about.

A what? Where?

Dravokivich wrote: »

Is 80 km/h slow?

yes

First Up

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Dravokivich wrote: »

There are roads with a minimum maximum speed. I think this is what they were talking about.

A what? Where?

Dravokivich wrote: »

Is 80 km/h slow?

yes

In the inside lane, its your own business. Anywhere else, its everyone else's.

Dravokivich

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

A what? Where?



yes

50 km/h is the minimum maximum speed for a vehicle on motorways in Ireland.

80 km/h is not slow.

Sean Kinvarra

Dravokivich wrote: »

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

A what? Where?



yes

50 km/h is the minimum maximum speed for a vehicle on motorways in Ireland.

80 km/h is not slow.

So you come across some idiot in lane 4 doing 80kmh on a 120kmh motorway on an almost empty motorway. A car enters from a sliprosd and builds up speed sticking to lane one and is catching up on the hogger who is still in a world of his own still. In lane four. Eventually lane one reaches 110kmh and decides to pass the hogger. Are you saying that the driver who is driving in the proper lane would be committing a criminal offence by simply passing on left? Don't know whether you know this or not but lane hogging IS a criminal offence, passing on inside (undertaking() like in UK is not!

trellheim

In fairness I had to drive back from Cork to Dublin on a bicycle tyre spare , max 80k on the M20/M7 some time ago

it was slow lane all the way in a car, but no-one honked or flashed, I thought I'd have been beeped out of it but everyone was fine.

First Up

trellheim wrote: »

In fairness I had to drive back from Cork to Dublin on a bicycle tyre spare , max 80k on the M20/M7 some time ago

it was slow lane all the way in a car, but no-one honked or flashed, I thought I'd have been beeped out of it but everyone was fine.

Because you were in the correct lane and weren't causing anyone a problem.

Did you pass anyone in Lane 2?

mfceiling

Dravokivich wrote: »

50 km/h is the minimum maximum speed for a vehicle on motorways in Ireland.

80 km/h is not slow.

It is dangerously slow if you come up behind someone tooting along in the overtaking lane at that speed.

Seth Brundle

trellheim wrote: »

it was slow lane all the way in a car, but no-one honked or flashed, I thought I'd have been beeped out of it but everyone was fine.

ya wha?

Baralis1

If I'm in the overtaking lane, driving at the speed limit, lets say 120 kph for motorways, and traffic in the left hand lane is moving more slowly than me, I'll stay in the overtaking lane. 
I may not be overtaking something but there is usually something up ahead that I will need to overtake in the next few mins. 
If someone tailgates me, or overtakes me on the left, they are the people breaking the law, not me as they are travelling over 120 kph. As long as I am at the speed limit, they should not be able to catch up with me legally. 
People should only be in the overtaking lane if you are actually overtaking or travelling at the speed limit and moving faster than the left hand lane.
It's time the speeders and tailgaters are named and shamed. They are causing accidents on the road and should be made resit their tests to learn how to drive safely.

GreeBo

mfceiling wrote: »

It is dangerously slow if you come up behind someone tooting along in the overtaking lane at that speed.

Its dangerous if you are driving in the overtaking lane and not paying attention to the speed of the traffic you are catching.

The person driving at 80km/h is not the one causing the problem there...

If you are expecting everyone on the road to be driving at the same speed you are then you need to rethink your approach to driving.

GreeBo

Baralis1 wrote: »

If I'm in the overtaking lane, driving at the speed limit, lets say 120 kph for motorways, and traffic in the left hand lane is moving more slowly than me, I'll stay in the overtaking lane. 
I may not be overtaking something but there is usually something up ahead that I will need to overtake in the next few mins. 
If someone tailgates me, or overtakes me on the left, they are the people breaking the law, not me as they are travelling over 120 kph. As long as I am at the speed limit, they should not be able to catch up with me legally. 
People should only be in the overtaking lane if you are actually overtaking or travelling at the speed limit and moving faster than the left hand lane.
It's time the speeders and tailgaters are named and shamed. They are causing accidents on the road and should be made resit their tests to learn how to drive safely.

Your speed is irrelevant, you should *only* be in the overtaking lane(s) if you are overtaking.
They are not called the "speed limit lanes".

You are not charged with controlling the speed of other drivers, so unless you are overtaking someone, pull in.
Even if you only pull in for 10s, pull in and stop holding up traffic and hogging the incorrect lane.

Baralis1

GreeBo wrote: »

Baralis1 wrote: »

If I'm in the overtaking lane, driving at the speed limit, lets say 120 kph for motorways, and traffic in the left hand lane is moving more slowly than me, I'll stay in the overtaking lane. 
I may not be overtaking something but there is usually something up ahead that I will need to overtake in the next few mins. 
If someone tailgates me, or overtakes me on the left, they are the people breaking the law, not me as they are travelling over 120 kph. As long as I am at the speed limit, they should not be able to catch up with me legally. 
People should only be in the overtaking lane if you are actually overtaking or travelling at the speed limit and moving faster than the left hand lane.
It's time the speeders and tailgaters are named and shamed. They are causing accidents on the road and should be made resit their tests to learn how to drive safely.

Your speed is irrelevant, you should *only* be in the overtaking lane(s) if you are overtaking.
They are not called the "speed limit lanes".

You are not charged with controlling the speed of other drivers, so unless you are overtaking someone, pull in.
Even if you only pull in for 10s, pull in and stop holding up traffic and hogging the incorrect lane.

the speed limit is not irrelevant and I'm sick of other drivers flaunting the rules of the road, flying along like they are in a grand prix and intimidating other drivers. It's illegal to drive over the speed limit and I will hold the road as long as I am travelling at the speed limit and not holding up other drivers driving legally at the speed limit.

TherapyBoy

Baralis1 wrote: »

the speed limit is not irrelevant and I'm sick of other drivers flaunting the rules of the road, flying along like they are in a grand prix and intimidating other drivers. It's illegal to drive over the speed limit and I will hold the road as long as I am travelling at the speed limit and not holding up other drivers driving legally at the speed limit.

Then you are part of the problem.

GreeBo

Baralis1 wrote: »

the speed limit is not irrelevant and I'm sick of other drivers flaunting the rules of the road, flying along like they are in a grand prix and intimidating other drivers. It's illegal to drive over the speed limit and I will hold the road as long as I am travelling at the speed limit and not holding up other drivers driving legally at the speed limit.

So your ignoring of the ROTR is somehow magically less bad than theirs?

Gotcha!

Baralis1

GreeBo wrote: »

Baralis1 wrote: »

the speed limit is not irrelevant and I'm sick of other drivers flaunting the rules of the road, flying along like they are in a grand prix and intimidating other drivers. It's illegal to drive over the speed limit and I will hold the road as long as I am travelling at the speed limit and not holding up other drivers driving legally at the speed limit.

So your ignoring of the ROTR is somehow magically less bad than theirs?

Gotcha!

If they weren't breaking the law, there wouldn't be an issue.

TherapyBoy

Think about it this way Baralis:

You unfortunately don't have much control over what other people using the road around you do, so it's important to keep yourself as safe as possible. If you consider that anyone who exceeds the speed limit, undertakes or drives in any sort of manner you consider to be a threat to your safety around you is a 'reckless driver', wouldn't it be better for you (& the other occupants of your car) to let them past you. If they are speeding & tailgating someone else a mile or two up the road when they crash due to their recklessness, you'll have time to react & avoid any nasty incidents.

magicbastarder

Baralis1 wrote: »

I'll stay in the overtaking lane. 
I may not be overtaking something
...
People should only be in the overtaking lane if you are actually overtaking or travelling at the speed limit and moving faster than the left hand lane.

you've managed to contradict yourself in your own post.

Baralis1

TherapyBoy wrote: »

Think about it this way Baralis:

You unfortunately don't have much control over what other people using the road around you do, so it's important to keep yourself as safe as possible. If you consider that anyone who exceeds the speed limit, undertakes or drives in any sort of manner you consider to be a threat to your safety around you is a 'reckless driver', wouldn't it be better for you (& the other occupants of your car) to let them past you. If they are speeding & tailgating someone else a mile or two up the road when they crash due to their recklessness, you'll have time to react & avoid any nasty incidents.

You're probably right TherapyBoy. I'm just so annoyed sometimes at some of the absolute assholes on the road putting me and other drivers at risk. I see it on a daily basis.
Maybe I should try and move in as soon as someone tailgates and just report their reg number to the Gardai.