Subtenant rights

Ciarantriguy12 · 07-07-2017 1:34pm #1

Hi guys,

Was renting a room in a house for the past 6 months and been given 1.5 months notice to leave, as they are keeping the house but replacing me with another person.
Was not told it was a sublet from the beginning (although I may have guessed from not signing a lease).
They are arguing I knew from the beginning I knew the tenancy was just until the end of next month. But I have asked on three previous occasions would the lease be renewed at the end of next month and they said they were not sure, so obviously they knew that I didn't know.
As a student I feel they've used me to pay for summer months and their friend will move in next month.
The issue now is they will make me pay for next month even though I'm not there.

Do I have any rights? Can I contact the ptrb to bring me into contact with the owner/letting agency? Another option I feel I could do is stay longer and they wouldn't really be able to force me to leave? I assume as a subtenant I don't have much in the way of legal protection?

Michael D Not Higgins · 07-07-2017 1:37pm

You have no tenancy rights. The RTB will not hear your case and you have no contract with the landlord. They can force you to leave as you are only a licensee, little more than a paying guest.

You do not have to pay for any time you are not there.

Ciarantriguy12 · 07-07-2017 1:40pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You have no tenancy rights. The RTB will not hear your case and you have no contract with the landlord. They can force you to leave as you are only a licensee, little more than a paying guest.

You do not have to pay for any time you are not there.

They are subletting without informing the landlord. It is meant to be 3 in the house and there is 4. If I were to contact the ptrb would they lose the house?

Michael D Not Higgins · 07-07-2017 1:41pm

Ciarantriguy12 wrote: »

They are subletting without informing the landlord. It is meant to be 3 in the house and there is 4. If I were to contact the ptrb would they lose the house?

No, the RTB wouldn't do anything. The landlord may not like them subletting without his permission but you can't force them to let you stay and you have no legal right after they ask you to leave.

Graham · 07-07-2017 1:42pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You have no tenancy rights. The RTB will not hear your case and you have no contract with the landlord. They can force you to leave as you are only a licensee, little more than a paying guest.

You do not have to pay for any time you are not there.

Is there anything to stop the OP claiming his part 4 rights now he's completed 6 months as a licensee?

Michael D Not Higgins · 07-07-2017 1:44pm

Graham wrote: »

Is there anything to stop the OP claiming his part 4 rights now he's completed 6 months as a licensee?

The notice to leave they've been given, I would say. And the fact that the landlord likely doesn't even know they're there and they have no contact details for the landlord to request it in the first place.

Mr. Incognito · 07-07-2017 1:45pm

This is quite an interesting legal question.

They don't have a right to sub-let I suspect which is standard in most leases.

There's nothing to stop you contacting the Landlord and regularising your position and having yourself added to the lease.

Ciarantriguy12 · 07-07-2017 1:46pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

No, the RTB wouldn't do anything. The landlord may not like them subletting without his permission but you can't force them to let you stay and you have no legal right after they ask you to leave.

Do they have the legal right to ask me to leave? What happens should I decide to stay. I feel the letting agency would terminate the contract if they found out about the subletting so I could call their bluff?

Ciarantriguy12 · 07-07-2017 1:47pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

The notice to leave they've been given, I would say. And the fact that the landlord likely doesn't even know they're there and they have no contact details for the landlord to request it in the first place.

Would there be anyway to get contact details for the letting agency? By contacting the ptrb would they disclose those details?

Mr. Incognito · 07-07-2017 1:47pm

They have a legal entitlement to be in the property.

You do not. So go get one.

Graham · 07-07-2017 1:47pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

The notice to leave they've been given, I would say. And the fact that the landlord likely doesn't even know they're there and they have no contact details for the landlord to request it in the first place.

I'm not sure but after reading the RTB notes on the subject, I'm still not sure

Chapter 6 of Part 4 contains the rules governing the operation of Part 4 in cases of multiple occupants. In some instances the multiple occupants will all be tenants but in other instances they will be a mixture of tenants and licensees. A tenancy becomes a Part 4 tenancy on the earliest date at which one of the tenants has been in occupation for 6 months. During the existence of a Part 4 tenancy any lawful licensee of the tenant/s may request the landlord to be allowed to become a tenant of the tenancy. The landlord may not unreasonably refuse such a request and must give his/her acceptance in writing. All the rights, restrictions and obligations of a tenant will then apply to the former licensee except that the protection of the Part 4 tenancy will not apply until the former licensee has completed 6 months of continuous occupation counting time spent as a licensee and as a tenant.

If the OP had been given notice with the notice ending before the 6 months are up I would agree the OP has no rights.

If it was considered OK to give notice prior to establishing Part 4 rights with notice period ending after the acquiring of those rights, you could effectively circumvent Part 4 rights by giving extended notice. That doesn't sound logical to me either.

Added: if the landlord doesn't know about the OP, there may be an argument he is not a lawful licensee.

davo10 · 07-07-2017 1:59pm

Can a tenant give you tenancy rights without permission from the property owner? Chances are the LL has never heard of you unfortunately. If you paid the deposit to the other tenant and you are paying rent to the other tenant, it's hard to see how you are anything other than a licensee.

From a practical viewpoint, do you really want to share a house with people who obviously want you out? I suspect that would be a bit of a nightmare. Time to move on op, they are arses and you will be better off somewhere else.

davindub · 07-07-2017 1:59pm

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

This is quite an interesting legal question.

They don't have a right to sub-let I suspect which is standard in most leases.

There's nothing to stop you contacting the Landlord and regularising your position and having yourself added to the lease.

I think it would be very hard to do this against the wishes of the other tenants. They would also have to agree to the modification of the lease.

Ciarantriguy12 · 07-07-2017 2:00pm

Graham wrote: »

I'm not sure but after reading the RTB notes on the subject, I'm still not sure

If the OP had been given notice with the notice ending before the 6 months are up I would agree the OP has no rights.

If it was considered OK to give notice prior to establishing Part 4 rights with notice period ending after the acquiring of those rights, you could effectively circumvent Part 4 rights by giving extended notice. That doesn't sound logical to me either.

Added: if the landlord doesn't know about the OP, there may be an argument he is not a lawful licensee.

To clarify, I was told after 5.5 months that I was to vacate by 7-7.5 months. Once I have been living there continuously for 6 months will that part 4 apply to me?

Will it at least enable me to make contact with the letting agency via contact with the ptrb?

Ciarantriguy12 · 07-07-2017 2:03pm

davindub wrote: »

I think it would be very hard to do this against the wishes of the other tenants. They would also have to agree to the modification of the lease.

They are illegally subletting. Do they really have any leg to stand on?
My hunch would be eviction, the current rent they pay is cheap for the area and they would easily replace those in it. They don't keep the house in good condition and there have been complaints from the neighbours about their noise in the past.

Ciarantriguy12 · 07-07-2017 2:05pm

davo10 wrote: »

Can a tenant give you tenancy rights without permission from the property owner? Chances are the LL has never heard of you unfortunately. If you paid the deposit to the other tenant and you are paying rent to the other tenant, it's hard to see how you are anything other than a licensee.

From a practical viewpoint, do you really want to share a house with people who obviously want you out? I suspect that would be a bit of a nightmare. Time to move on op, they are arses and you will be better off somewhere else.

I don't want to live with them but legal rights would give me a stronger negotiating standpoint to get my deposit back (ie threaten them with possible eviction, or that I'll stay on unless I get the money).

Graham · 07-07-2017 2:05pm

davindub wrote: »

I think it would be very hard to do this against the wishes of the other tenants. They would also have to agree to the modification of the lease.

I don't see anything to suggest the permission of the other tenants is required for a licensee to request/be-granted his part 4 rights.

Graham · 07-07-2017 2:07pm

Ciarantriguy12 wrote: »

I don't want to live with them but legal rights would give me a stronger negotiating standpoint to get my deposit back (ie threaten them with possible eviction, or that I'll stay on unless I get the money).

I take it your aim is to leave the property before the end of the notice period with your deposit repaid?

Marcusm · 07-07-2017 2:12pm

Ciarantriguy12 wrote: »

I don't want to live with them but legal rights would give me a stronger negotiating standpoint to get my deposit back (ie threaten them with possible eviction, or that I'll stay on unless I get the money).

After 6 months occupation, you have the right to ask the landlord (actual landlord, not your fellow tenants) for recognition of your part 4 entitlements. The objections of your fellowctenants might be reasonable grounds for him to refuse. If you genuinely plan on leaving then I would focus on recovering your deposit. Perhaps by asking them to return it now as they are able to monitor your damage on a daily basis. If not, I guess you should consider applying to the landlord for recognition of your part 4 rights. While this remains open they would find it difficult to force you out.

Michael D Not Higgins · 07-07-2017 2:13pm

Ciarantriguy12 wrote: »

They are illegally subletting. Do they really have any leg to stand on?
My hunch would be eviction, the current rent they pay is cheap for the area and they would easily replace those in it. They don't keep the house in good condition and there have been complaints from the neighbours about their noise in the past.

You can't be evicted straight away for a breach of obligation or term within a lease. You must first be given a chance to remedy the situation and a suitable time period to do so. If you were trying to get the tenants in trouble with the landlord it would only expedite your eviction.

07-07-2017 2:13pm

Ciarantriguy12 wrote: »

What happens should I decide to stay.

You need to be careful with this as you have no rights so the other housemates could simply leave your stuff outside the door and lock you out. Its unlikely but it is a possibility.

Graham wrote: »

I'm not sure but after reading the RTB notes on the subject, I'm still not sure

If the OP had been given notice with the notice ending before the 6 months are up I would agree the OP has no rights.

If it was considered OK to give notice prior to establishing Part 4 rights with notice period ending after the acquiring of those rights, you could effectively circumvent Part 4 rights by giving extended notice. That doesn't sound logical to me either.

Added: if the landlord doesn't know about the OP, there may be an argument he is not a lawful licensee.

They have to request to be added to the lease and the LL has to agree to it. The op hasn't requested nor has the LL accepted it so I can't see how there could be any doubt that they are a licensee.

Samuel T. Cogley · 07-07-2017 2:16pm

I have this in the buffer from the previous thread so:

50.—(1) Subsection (2) applies unless the multiple tenant concerned benefits, by virtue of the preceding Chapters of this Part, from the protection of the Part 4 tenancy on its coming into existence.

(2) A multiple tenant who was in occupation of a dwelling immediately before the coming into existence of a Part 4 tenancy in respect of it shall, on his or her having been in occupation of the dwelling for a continuous period of 6 months (and that tenancy still subsists), benefit from the protection of that tenancy; accordingly the rights, restrictions and obligations under this Part shall, on and from the expiry of that period of 6 months, apply in relation to that multiple tenant as they apply in relation to the multiple tenant whose continuous occupation gave rise to the Part 4 tenancy's existence.

(3) Any person who the landlord accepts as a tenant of a dwelling on, or subsequent to, a Part 4 tenancy coming into existence in respect of it, shall, on his or her having been in occupation of the dwelling for a continuous period of 6 months (and that tenancy still subsists), benefit from the protection of that tenancy; accordingly, the rights, restrictions and obligations under this Part shall, on and from the expiry of that period of 6 months, apply in relation to that person as they apply in relation to the multiple tenant whose continuous occupation gave rise to the Part 4 tenancy's existence.

(4) The reference in subsection (3) to a landlord's accepting a person as a tenant is a reference to his or her accepting a person as a tenant—

(a) whether as a replacement for any of the existing multiple tenants or as an additional tenant to them, and

(b) whether or not the person was immediately before that acceptance a licensee in occupation of the dwelling.

(5) For the purpose of reckoning the continuous period of occupation referred to in subsections (2) and (3), any period of continuous occupation by the person concerned of the dwelling as a licensee (whether that period begins before, on or after the Part 4 tenancy came into existence) may be counted with any continuous period of occupation by that person of the dwelling as a tenant that follows on immediately from it.

(6) For the purpose of, amongst other things, ensuring that the distinction that exists between licences and tenancies does not operate to frustrate the objectives of this Part in cases to which this Chapter applies, subsections (7) and (8) are enacted.

(7) A person who is lawfully in occupation of the dwelling concerned as a licensee of the tenant or the multiple tenants, as the case may be, during the subsistence of a Part 4 tenancy may request the landlord of the dwelling to allow him or her to become a tenant of the dwelling.

(8) The landlord may not unreasonably refuse to accede to such a request; if the request is acceded to—

(a) an acknowledgement in writing by the landlord that the requester has become a tenant of the landlord suffices for the purpose,

(b) the requester shall hold the dwelling—

(i) on the same terms, or as appropriately modified, as those on which the existing tenant or multiple tenants hold the dwelling (other than terms comprising the rights, restrictions and obligations which arise by virtue of a Part 4 tenancy being in existence in respect of the dwelling),

(ii) upon (if such be the case) subsection (3) being satisfied in respect of the requester, subject to the same rights, restrictions and obligations as those subject to which the multiple tenant whose continuous occupation gave rise to the Part 4 tenancy's existence holds the dwelling.

So contact the LL as suggested above by Mr. Incognito and try and sort the situation that way. The LL cannot 'unreasonably' refuse the request. The notice you've been given I would argue is at least voidable by the LL, assuming no right to sublet.

All that said do you really want to live somewhere you're not wanted?

07-07-2017 2:17pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I have this in the buffer from the previous thread so:

So contact the LL as suggested above by Mr. Incognito and try and sort the situation that way. The LL cannot 'unreasonably' refuse the request. The notice you've been given I would argue is at least voidable by the LL, assuming no right to sublet.

All that said do you really want to live somewhere you're not wanted?

The LL can simply say the op was never allowed live there in the first place so his request is refused. A perfectly valid reason I would think. He would also need to get the LL details which won't be easy.

As an aside its a crazy rule that a licencee of a tenant can even request part4 rights after 6 months they should be considered the same as a licensee of an owner occupier and remain a licensee regardless of how long they are in the property.

Michael D Not Higgins · 07-07-2017 2:18pm

Leon Thousands Megaphone wrote: »

They have to request to be added to the lease and the LL has to agree to it. The op hasn't requested nor has the LL accepted it so I can't see how there could be any doubt that they are a licensee.

I think we're all agreed the OP is a licensee. What the discussion is surrounding is if they have the ability to now become a tenant in line with Section 50.

Graham · 07-07-2017 2:20pm

Leon Thousands Megaphone wrote: »

They have to request to be added to the lease and the LL has to agree to it. The op hasn't requested nor has the LL accepted it so I can't see how there could be any doubt that they are a licensee.

I don't see anything suggesting they have to be added to the lease just that the licensee has to request their part 4 rights.

As the OP is planning on moving anyway, the best thing the OP can do here is come to a mutual agreement with whoever is holding their deposit.

I can't see how the other tenants can have is all ways by claiming the OP is an unofficial licensee with no rights while simultaneously claiming the OP should see out a 'lease/tenancy'.

07-07-2017 2:22pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I think we're all agreed the OP is a licensee. What the discussion is surrounding is if they have the ability to now become a tenant in line with Section 50.

But as they are currently a licensee they can can be asked to leave more or less on the spot thus preventing them even trying to become a tenant.

My point is really that I think the op would be far better off to but their effort into looking for alternative accommodation with the time they have left rather than rock the boat and possibly end up getting asked to leave much sooner.

Samuel T. Cogley · 07-07-2017 2:23pm

Leon Thousands Megaphone wrote: »

The LL can simply say the op was never allowed live there in the first place so his request is refused. A perfectly valid reason I would think. He would also need to get the LL details which won't be easy.

As an aside its a crazy rule that a licencee of a tenant can even request part4 rights after 6 months they should be considered the same as a licensee of an owner occupier and remain a licensee regardless of how long they are in the property.

Perhaps, but perhaps they won't. It's not the LL the OP has an issue with. In fact I'd be tempted to allow it if it was my property in the hopes the current tenants moved out if they were doing things like this without my knowledge but I'm digressing.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I think we're all agreed the OP is a licensee. What the discussion is surrounding is if they have the ability to now become a tenant in line with Section 50.

Section 50 allows it. It's far from clear either way though. And as Nox has pointed out it seems perfectly reasonable to refuse (LL) however toss a coin as to whether they will or not.

Samuel T. Cogley · 07-07-2017 2:24pm

Leon Thousands Megaphone wrote: »

But as they are currently a licensee they can can be asked to leave more or less on the spot thus preventing them even trying to become a tenant.

My point is really that I think the op would be far better off to but their effort into looking for alternative accommodation with the time they have left rather than rock the boat and possibly end up getting asked to leave much sooner.

He's entitled to reasonable notice as a licensee and has been given 1.5 months isn't it? Surely enough time to make a phone call?

However on a practical front I could not agree more. Find something else.

07-07-2017 2:25pm

Graham wrote: »

I don't see anything suggesting they have to be added to the lease just that the licensee has to request their part 4 rights.

As the OP is planning on moving anyway, the best thing the OP can do here is come to a mutual agreement with whoever is holding their deposit.

I can't see how the other tenants can have is all ways by claiming the OP is an unofficial licensee with no rights while simultaneously claiming the OP should see out a 'lease/tenancy'.

Added to the tenancy I meant.

I agree that the other housemates have no hold over the op either and that he he/she can move out when they want an not owe any further rent. They may have to go to the small claims court for their deposit though.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

He's entitled to reasonable notice as a licensee and has been given 1.5 months isn't it? Surely enough time to make a phone call?

However on a practical front I could not agree more. Find something else.

But that notice could suddenly be shortened to a few days or less if the LLs details keep getting requested and the other housemates suspect he is up to something.

I don't even know what the RTB could do if the op was a tenant and was forced out by the housemates, the RTB deal with LL vs tenants (or 3rd party disputes against a neighbours LL etc) what could they actually do to a tenant who kicks out another tenant*?

*Genuine question by the way

Help!!!! · 07-07-2017 2:26pm

Ciarantriguy12 wrote: »

Do they have the legal right to ask me to leave? What happens should I decide to stay. I feel the letting agency would terminate the contract if they found out about the subletting so I could call their bluff?

Do you really want to live with people who will hate your guts afterwards? Best thing to do is move out, dont pay for anything you dont need to & next place make sure your on a lease

Michael D Not Higgins · 07-07-2017 2:26pm

I very much doubt a licensee who the landlord has never heard of before ringing out of the blue would be made a tenant. Nevertheless, I don't think this is the OP's aim. They want the return of the deposit.

OP, organise to get the deposit back from the person you paid it to and if you can't come to an arrangement you will have to open a case with the Small Claims Court.

Subtenant rights

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