Back in the market... again.

bear1

grogi wrote: »

Just don't buy anything that is not registered in Poland.

It is a legal minefield and I guarantee you would get screwed...

Is it? I thought it was a simple matter of paying a small fee for the plates?

bear1

colm_mcm wrote: »

I'd have the Accord. The facelift estates are tasty.

I'd love to be able to have the s version as at least it has 180bhp but they are either out of budget or wrecked.
The front looks savage but the rear of it is meh.

colm_mcm

bear1 wrote: »

I'd love to be able to have the s version as at least it has 180bhp but they are either out of budget or wrecked.
The front looks savage but the rear of it is meh.

Forget the 180bhp. It's the same story over here, the only ones within budget would be the bad ones

Don't think the rear is any more meh than a Mondeo

bear1

colm_mcm wrote: »

Forget the 180bhp. It's the same story over here, the only ones within budget would be the bad ones

Don't think the rear is any more meh than a Mondeo

The front of those estates look fantastic though, very underestimated styling.
Or maybe it's that particular one but the colour really pops on it.

bear1

Test drove another insignia today.
Actually enjoyed it this time.
The salesman was very nice and helpful which has pushed the car as our number 1 for now.
Couple of things, does anyone have any experiences from owning one?
The one we looked at was the 160 Cosmo version.
Two things I didn't like though, the seats aren't leather and I found them somewhat uncomfortable but it may be that I hadn't set.it up properly.
The second thing was that I was surprised it didn't have front fogs. You'd think theyd be standard.
But it does have bi-xenons which were a treat, heated seats, sat nav, usb slot for the child, bluetooth etc.
Price wise it's so and so. Car was originally listed as 37900 and now it's 36800 and they are willing to drop another 500.
Now just fyi 500 is feck all in euro.
Essentially the car is 9k more or less, reduced to 8.8k more or less and they are willing to drop 120e more.
So hard to negotiate here!

polan

bear, if you need a car professionally checked, I recommend you buy an autotesto report. They are a bit pricey, but you do get a man come out and check out the car in person.

Also, the ads you've linked. I've a bad feeling for all of them except for the Accord and the Insignias - they're typical fraudealer ads. Brilliant photos - crap cars.

Autlet is actually a decent enough dealership, haven't heard too many horror stories about them.

Dealerships to avoid - AAA Auto, autoauto.pl and pretty much everything in the west of Poland. On top of that, notorious fraudster auto cities in a 100km radius from Warsaw: Radom, Zwolen, Ostrow Mazowiecka

Also, haggle more, going from 37900 to 36300 is not a huge feat, make sure you've something to bargain on - new tyres, brakes, etc.

bear1

polan wrote: »

bear, if you need a car professionally checked, I recommend you buy an autotesto report. They are a bit pricey, but you do get a man come out and check out the car in person.

Also, the ads you've linked. I've a bad feeling for all of them except for the Accord and the Insignias - they're typical fraudealer ads. Brilliant photos - crap cars.

Autlet is actually a decent enough dealership, haven't heard too many horror stories about them.

Dealerships to avoid - AAA Auto, autoauto.pl and pretty much everything in the west of Poland. On top of that, notorious fraudster auto cities in a 100km radius from Warsaw: Radom, Zwolen, Ostrow Mazowiecka

Also, haggle more, going from 37900 to 36300 is not a huge feat, make sure you've something to bargain on - new tyres, brakes, etc.

Funny you should mention those 2 places, they are the ones I had the worst experience :pac:
Re the Autlet place, yes it was a very nice experience. The showroom is huge, the seller spoke English and was generally nice to deal with.
autoauto.pl I found a complete waste of time, unless you are buying something high end they don't want to listen to you.
My heart is really set on the Alfa but the Insignia pleasantly surprised me except for the seats.
If I wanted I could travel a bit further afield and get the leather and Infinity sound system so still have a bit of thinking to do.
Putting the Passat up for sale tonight

About the bargaining. The car will need a new TB and water pump which is 100% a given but I couldn't find anything else I could use as a bargaining tool.
So it's quite problematic.

polan

bear1 wrote: »

Funny you should mention those 2 places, they are the ones I had the worst experience :pac:
Re the Autlet place, yes it was a very nice experience. The showroom is huge, the seller spoke English and was generally nice to deal with.
autoauto.pl I found a complete waste of time, unless you are buying something high end they don't want to listen to you.
My heart is really set on the Alfa but the Insignia pleasantly surprised me except for the seats.
If I wanted I could travel a bit further afield and get the leather and Infinity sound system so still have a bit of thinking to do.
Putting the Passat up for sale tonight

About the bargaining. The car will need a new TB and water pump which is 100% a given but I couldn't find anything else I could use as a bargaining tool.
So it's quite problematic.

Paint depth tool, any panel over 150 microns and you can haggle, unoriginal paintwork is a b*tch when you're selling in Poland
I was able to go down 600 zl on a 2.5k car, so honestly, 1600 on almost 20 times as much isn't great :P
That said, I'm sure autotesto would find something to haggle on, their reports are incredibly detailed.

grogi

bear1 wrote: »

Is it? I thought it was a simple matter of paying a small fee for the plates?

In theory yes. But...

There are crowds of traders who made money by buying cars in Germany for export and geting VAT refund. They should pay the VAT in Poland on importation, but because you buy a car that is not registered, you won't know if the VAT is due or not. You will only find out when you want to get the plates... It is called 'wałek na VAT'. Read here for instance: http://www.akuq.pl/2013/01/08/walek-na-vat-co-to-takiego/

In general, IT IS NOT WORTH to buy imported cars in Poland. Similar cars are typically more expensive in Germany - so if the trader brings a vehicle and makes money on it, there is something wrong with it. It might be crashed and repaired for cheap east from Oder, the VAT-fraud thing etc.

Very often the trader will insist that you sign a sale contract with the previous owner in country of origin, not the trader himself. That is fraud on your side. It insulates him from any liability and puts you in very difficult situation when it is discovered that the owner for instance died a few days earlier...

To sum up - don't buy imported cars. The best bet is to buy a higher mileage car from going directly from a leasing company. Plenty of Insignias and Mondeos would be available like that, but it will be more expensive than the mints.

bear1

polan wrote: »

Paint depth tool, any panel over 150 microns and you can haggle, unoriginal paintwork is a b*tch when you're selling in Poland
I was able to go down 600 zl on a 2.5k car, so honestly, 1600 on almost 20 times as much isn't great :P
That said, I'm sure autotesto would find something to haggle on, their reports are incredibly detailed.

I tried looking up autotesto in Warsaw but gives me only a wroclaw address.
From looking at their website, I give them a link to the car plus some details and then pay.
What happens then? They send someone to look at the car and then 48 hours later I get the report?

polan

Yes, that's what they do!

polan

I have taken the liberty of translating this process:

Step 1
You choose the type of the report

Mini:
Time: 24h
Detailed technical verification of the vehicles condition
297 PLN (€70)

Standard:
Time: 48h
Detailed technical verification of the vehicle’s condition including thorough underside inspection
397 PLN (€95)

Prestige:
Time: 48h
Detailed technical verification of the vehicle’s condition including thorough underside inspection and a complete OBD scan for errors.
497 PLN (€120)


Step 2
Autotesto contacts the owner of the vehicle to arrange a meeting


Step 3
Depending on the package chosen, after 24/48 hours you will receive a thorough report of the vehicle’s condition.

bear1

I'd probably go for the most expensive one just to cover myself.
Knowing my luck I'd pay and the car is sold.

166man

€120 looks worth it to me Bear for a pretty comprehensive test.

I'd still have an Alfa 159 but not sure about the one you linked.

bear1

166man wrote: »

€120 looks worth it to me Bear for a pretty comprehensive test.

I'd still have an Alfa 159 but not sure about the one you linked.

I would be getting it for sure. I'd rather be 120 out of pocket than 9k.
Preparing the ad now for my own yoke.
If i can get that sold within the month I'd be happy.

polan

Where are you putting the ad?

bear1

polan wrote: »

Where are you putting the ad?

Allegro.
Took all the photos, they aren't the best admittedly but tried my best with the tools and time I've got.
Took a picture or all the receipts for the work done which brought a tear to my eye when I added them up plus pictures of the work done in a vw dealer in Germany.
A colleague told me I shouldn't put pictures of work done as it raises eyebrows that the car has been expensive to run but in my mind it shows that whatever it needed it got. And it gives piece of mind to the new owner what warranty he's got on parts.
Thoughts?

polan

bear1 wrote: »

Allegro.
Took all the photos, they aren't the best admittedly but tried my best with the tools and time I've got.
Took a picture or all the receipts for the work done which brought a tear to my eye when I added them up plus pictures of the work done in a vw dealer in Germany.
A colleague told me I shouldn't put pictures of work done as it raises eyebrows that the car has been expensive to run but in my mind it shows that whatever it needed it got. And it gives piece of mind to the new owner what warranty he's got on parts.
Thoughts?

OTOMOTO/Olx/Allegro combo is possible if you're buying through Otomoto as far as I remember.
Describing work done and saying receipts are available is good enough, don't take pictures though, it's just waste.

bear1

polan wrote: »

OTOMOTO/Olx/Allegro combo is possible if you're buying through Otomoto as far as I remember.
Describing work done and saying receipts are available is good enough, don't take pictures though, it's just waste.

Always thought it was nice to see proof of the work done rather than take someone's word for it.
Btw thanks for the help!
I can stick a link to the ad up when it's finished, it's obviously aimed at the Poles so if you both want to provide feedback it would be welcome

polan

Absolutely no problem, always nice to help out a fellow Boards member!
Sure, I can have a look and provide feedback

bear1

polan wrote: »

Absolutely no problem, always nice to help out a fellow Boards member!
Sure, I can have a look and provide feedback

Sound if the feedback is "to gowno" then just stay silent..

polan

bear1 wrote: »

Sound if the feedback is "to gowno" then just stay silent..

Or I'll just murmur in disbelief a very quiet "O kurwa..."

bear1

My friend does that when he sees his account balance after a night out. Never stops cracking me up that phrase.

bear1

So an update.. sort of.
We are in Italy for a few days and got a giulietta as a rental. Funny enough the wife likes it so it has been hinted as a possible candidate.
Read some reviews and if I buy a roof box then it works fine as a family car.
Got our first call today for the Passat which is brilliant considering we aren't around.
Guy said he'd call back tomorrow (which I doubt) but who knows... by Wednesday it could be gone

bear1

Passat is no more.
Came back from Italy a few hours ago and an hour after that the car was gone.
Now the search properly begins..

_Kaiser_

I'm admittedly biased but 3.0 TDI Quattro A6 in a decent spec

240bhp, tiptronic, loads of rear leg room, huge boot and that's in saloon form, comfortable, well laid out, and generally a very nice place to be.

bear1

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm admittedly biased but 3.0 TDI Quattro A6 in a decent spec

240bhp, tiptronic, loads of rear leg room, huge boot and that's in saloon form, comfortable, well laid out, and generally a very nice place to be.

Would you be referring to the c6? Generation?
It's quite hard to find the one with the criteria I have which isn't either damaged in some way or not registered.
Curiosity, how is it on servicing? Common issues?

polan

Get a 530d like I told you

_Kaiser_

bear1 wrote: »

Would you be referring to the c6? Generation?
It's quite hard to find the one with the criteria I have which isn't either damaged in some way or not registered.
Curiosity, how is it on servicing? Common issues?

Yep I've had both a 2005 c6 and my current 2010 refresh.

I do a lot of mileage and never had any real problems with either of them beyond the usual wear and tear items. Had to replace a caliper on the older car but again when you do over 1100 km a week you can't complain too much. It also had a swirl flap fault which generated a engine management light but no actual problem for over 2 years.. but then they get whatever they need and are serviced as scheduled. Only sold the first car because of the motor tax bill and because with 350k km on it the wear and tear repairs were starting to mount up.

Full 80L tank will do about 900km of motorway miles even with a heavy foot and the extra power is very welcome.

I'd definitely recommend taking one for a spin anyway.

bear1

Ok the cars have been narrowed down.

It will either be an insignia tourer 160bhp more or less fully kitted - this is the wife's preference

Or...

A 159 2.4 or a Tbi.
Tomorrow I'm viewing an end of the production line 159 tbi which checking online says it isn't too bad on fuel.

My dilemma, wtf do I do?

polan

Get a 530d, and you both don't get what you want.

Compromise, the best thing about marriage :pac:

bear1

polan wrote: »

Get a 530d, and you both don't get what you want.

Compromise, the best thing about marriage :pac:

It's a no go on the 530
Sat inside one the other day and just couldn't get comfortable and wasn't really fond of the double dash layout.
My compromise is the Alfa been waiting 5 years to have one again so I'm really hoping that's what the outcome will be.

bear1

Seems like the car my have been chosen
All going well I may be behind the wheel of a 159 Q4 2.4. Just trying to find out if the Q4 system is robust or not.

polan

Torsen system, 43/57 split. Supposedly almost identical to Audi's quattro system

colm_mcm

I think you need to get the Alfa. When the insignia calves, and calf it will as you are the grim reaper for cars, you'll wish you got the 159. At least if the Alfa shiits itself you can blame Alfa.

bear1

colm_mcm wrote: »

I think you need to get the Alfa. When the insignia calves, and calf it will as you are the grim reaper for cars, you'll wish you got the 159. At least if the Alfa shiits itself you can blame Alfa.

I had to laugh at that, it's not that I'm the grim reaper but it just seems my cars become terminal the moment I sign the ownership forms.
As it stands it's down to 2 cars, spot the one the wife wants.
2.0 Insignia sports tourer with 163bhp, heated and ventilated leather, memory seats, infinity sound system, park assist and parking sensors blah blah.
The one I'm craving, a 2.4 Q4 159 sportswagon in black with red heated leather, Xenons and parking sensors.. that's it.
I'm fully aware of the alfas weakpoints as I owned the older version of this engine so I just need to stay on top of services and replace the PAS fluid if it's the wrong one and correct the plastic expansion tank cap with a metal one.
But considering that the opel uses more or less the same engine as the 16v 159 engine then it seems to be more prone to failure.
The Alfa is also priced 2/3k less than the opel.
I also believe the Alfa would be cheaper to repair but the 2.4 is a very cramped engine to work on.

ba_barabus

colm_mcm wrote: »

I think you need to get the Alfa. When the insignia calves, and calf it will as you are the grim reaper for cars, you'll wish you got the 159. At least if the Alfa shiits itself you can blame Alfa.

This. I used the exact same reasoning buying my 159 and it never let me down more than was expected.

166man

Don't forget the gearbox rebuild needed on the Insignia whilst the 159 won't have this issue.

bear1

166man wrote: »

Don't forget the gearbox rebuild needed on the Insignia whilst the 159 won't have this issue.

Is the gearbox the same ****ty m32? The 2.4 won't have this issue and from reading on Alfa forums the q4 is a very robust system but quite heavy.

bear1

Just got back from viewing the Alfa.
My god.
So the positives.
Looked great, lovely metallic pearl like colour off of it and the red leather complimented it perfectly.
The pram surprisingly got into the boot much better whereas with the insignia it was a bit hit and miss which genuinely surprised us.
The rear legroom wasn't as bad as I read online.
The seats were just as I remembered them.. comfortable.
No warning lights, no odd sounds from engine.
Started immediately.
A.c. worked well and the xenons lit up nicely.
Dealer was happy for it to be fully inspected at a mechanics and willing to negotiate on the price.
Engine had no leaks both under or over.

Negatives.

Drivers seat is kinda worn and has a deep tear at the side which in a way confirms it's kilometres.
The bonnet opening match is broken and I had to pull the cable to open - they said it would be fixed for the sale.
The PAS fluid is red and not the green it should be which means it needs to be changed asap.
And finally the timing belt and pump were last done 2 years ago which means it needs it done now for peace of mind.

Wife is coming round to the idea of buying it.

ba_barabus

Bear if you don't mind me saying all of the cars you've looked at seem to have the clear signs of trouble written all over them.

I'm only saying this as the whole reason you've changed your past 3 or 4 cars is due to them quickly becoming money pits. Many of what you've looked at from your descriptions are pretty much being sold for the same reason.

Would it not be more prudent to buy something that is coming in better condition to begin with or from a franchised dealer even if it means not getting exactly what you want for this time and holding out till the next time?

I'm only saying it as I've been down that road before and it gets tiresome eventually, generally around the point you realise you're broke.

That Alfa for all the joy it could bring doesn't sound like a car to begin with. I'm not sure what issues the wrong oil in the steering could do but power steering pump and rack spring to mind. Then you have to ask yourself what else has been fcked around with. Add to that it's not a regular 159 to begin with.

I've owned one, I loved it but I went out of my way to start with a good one.

Just my 2 cents, I'm not trying to kill your buzz about it but maybe it might be worth stepping back and thinking about the bigger picture that has lead you to this point?

grogi

ba_barabus wrote: »

Would it not be more prudent to buy something that is coming in better condition to begin with or from a franchised dealer even if it means not getting exactly what you want for this time and holding out till the next time?

The market is very different in Poland to what we are used here. Majority of people sell their cars privately, and the used prices are absolutely horrendous.
In fairness it is only Toyota that is worth looking for second hand cars. Buying post-lease cars is the way to go really - they will be boring, they will have galactic mileage - but they are rather young and serviced regularly.

Bear1, I will repeat my advice to you - get a NEW or almost NEW car. Astra Sedan 1.4T with factory fitted LPG. You'll have years of trouble free and cheap motoring for not really that much more money. I understand your desire to drive an Alfa - but sometimes we need to grow up and face reality.

Like this one: https://www.otomoto.pl/oferta/opel-astra-sedan-1-4t-140km-mt6-z-lpg-2017-pakiet-upgrade-ii-lakier-metalik-ID6yUHez.html#502007f6bb

Or looks for some demos etc:
https://www.otomoto.pl/osobowe/opel/astra/?search%5Bfilter_float_year%3Afrom%5D=2016&search%5Bfilter_enum_fuel_type%5D%5B0%5D=petrol-lpg&search%5Bcountry%5D=

polan

Don't listen to them, I just bought a V8 7 Series myself :pac:

bear1

ba_barabus wrote: »

Bear if you don't mind me saying all of the cars you've looked at seem to have the clear signs of trouble written all over them.

I'm only saying this as the whole reason you've changed your past 3 or 4 cars is due to them quickly becoming money pits. Many of what you've looked at from your descriptions are pretty much being sold for the same reason.

Would it not be more prudent to buy something that is coming in better condition to begin with or from a franchised dealer even if it means not getting exactly what you want for this time and holding out till the next time?

I'm only saying it as I've been down that road before and it gets tiresome eventually, generally around the point you realise you're broke.

That Alfa for all the joy it could bring doesn't sound like a car to begin with. I'm not sure what issues the wrong oil in the steering could do but power steering pump and rack spring to mind. Then you have to ask yourself what else has been fcked around with. Add to that it's not a regular 159 to begin with.

I've owned one, I loved it but I went out of my way to start with a good one.

Just my 2 cents, I'm not trying to kill your buzz about it but maybe it might be worth stepping back and thinking about the bigger picture that has lead you to this point?

grogi wrote: »

The market is very different in Poland to what we are used here. Majority of people sell their cars privately, and the used prices are absolutely horrendous.
In fairness it is only Toyota that is worth looking for second hand cars. Buying post-lease cars is the way to go really - they will be boring, they will have galactic mileage - but they are rather young and serviced regularly.

Bear1, I will repeat my advice to you - get a NEW or almost NEW car. Astra Sedan 1.4T with factory fitted LPG. You'll have years of trouble free and cheap motoring for not really that much more money. I understand your desire to drive an Alfa - but sometimes we need to grow up and face reality.

Like this one: https://www.otomoto.pl/oferta/opel-astra-sedan-1-4t-140km-mt6-z-lpg-2017-pakiet-upgrade-ii-lakier-metalik-ID6yUHez.html#502007f6bb

Or looks for some demos etc:
https://www.otomoto.pl/osobowe/opel/astra/?search%5Bfilter_float_year%3Afrom%5D=2016&search%5Bfilter_enum_fuel_type%5D%5B0%5D=petrol-lpg&search%5Bcountry%5D=

Good feedback - appreciated.
But if I may....
I could go ahead and organise myself a brand new car (now to be clear I could not go out and buy myself something I'd literally enjoy) but for eg the Tipo or let's say even that Astra.
But... would I be happy? Probably not and it would sicken me to death knowing I've financed a 70k car for which I don't wan't/like leaving aside the fact it would take a sizeable chunk from my monthly salary - we also need to remember the difference in earnings. Things aren't as cheap here as people may think.
The Astra, it's a petrol and not a stationwagon.
My wife is due another baby next year and craming everything into a saloon would not work.
The Alfa, I'm fully aware of what I COULD be getting into. I have signed no agreement and it could all still go tits up - the car will need to pass an inspection which Polan gave me which will tell me everything that is wrong and or good with the car.
If it fails then it's a no go.
Tears on the drivers seat for me is not something which would cancel out interest in purchasing.
The coolant being red and not green, this was a mistake made by Alfa. They advised the incorrect fluid and a lot of people who aren't in the know continue with that fluid which can lead to rack failure.
Remedy is to replace the entire fluid with the lime green Tutela version and it should be good to go.
The Insignia... that car is going for near on 10k Euro from a respectable dealer from what I gather but that car also needs a timing belt and pump done.
The buying market here is not like in Ireland and cars are way way more expensive (second hand anyway) so you need to really plan your budget accordingly.
My budget does go up to the 10k mark but if I can get a car which puts a smile on my face, which costs me 3k less than my budget, and potentially turns out to be a good one... why wouldn't I buy it?

166man

I agree with BA's comments but what I might say is that you're clearly into your Alfa's bear given your history!

In those 159's the steering racks were an item that could go wrong alright but very little will go wrong with that 2.4 diesel if it's been looked after. Much stronger gearboxes than the M32 in the 1.9 diesels.

I think if you go for it but set aside money per month for general fixes and accept that some stuff may go wrong then go for it. As long as the engine/gearbox etc is good then you'll always be fixing stuff on second hand cars.

bear1

166man wrote: »

I agree with BA's comments but what I might say is that you're clearly into your Alfa's bear given your history!

In those 159's the steering racks were an item that could go wrong alright but very little will go wrong with that 2.4 diesel if it's been looked after. Much stronger gearboxes than the M32 in the 1.9 diesels.

I think if you go for it but set aside money per month for general fixes and accept that some stuff may go wrong then go for it. As long as the engine/gearbox etc is good then you'll always be fixing stuff on second hand cars.

Personally I think BA was talking sense.
It's very easy with these cars to get a blinkered vision and just think with your heart and not head.
But I do plan to be very thorough with it and make sure I won't be stung bad at least.
The steering rack and with the 2.4 being so heavy also suspension parts I'm expecting some snags or two.
But look at the Passat, bought from a dealer with a 6 month warranty only for it to go bang every few months the moment the warranty expired.

ba_barabus

I think you've been stung enough times in a row to deserve a break. The 159 is a lovely car and I loved mine but get as good a one as is out there I suppose is all that I mean and don't settle for one that'll make you regret the decision.

bear1

ba_barabus wrote: »

I think you've been stung enough times in a row to deserve a break. The 159 is a lovely car and I loved mine but get as good a one as is out there I suppose is all that I mean and don't settle for one that'll make you regret the decision.

Totally agree with this.
As said, the decision was made to dig deeper with this particular Alfa and see what the mechanic says.
In the case it's bought I'd change the head unit to a pioneer system, are those radios easy to replace?

166man

bear1 wrote: »

Totally agree with this.
As said, the decision was made to dig deeper with this particular Alfa and see what the mechanic says.
In the case it's bought I'd change the head unit to a pioneer system, are those radios easy to replace?

Yep very easy. Changed the one in the mothers Brera so should be the same.

I'd change the speakers too as the standard ones aren't great.

Fwiw I totally agree with BA's comments re getting the best example you can.

bear1

166man wrote: »

Yep very easy. Changed the one in the mothers Brera so should be the same.

I'd change the speakers too as the standard ones aren't great.

Fwiw I totally agree with BA's comments re getting the best example you can.

I've lined up a few, but the q4 isn't easy to find so I'm keeping it at the top of my list.
Next I've a 1.9 ti which is a bit far from me so I'll see if the 2.4 falls through and take a look.
The 2.4 in general seems to be a much more robust engine than the 1.9 and suffers more from tyre wear and the dpf.
I might be going to test drive the 2.4 tomorrow again to see what it's like further out.

RE changing the head unit. I've found a pioneer sdh touch screen system with Wi-Fi and some other stuff which seems popular with the 159 so I'm hoping it's a simple plug in.
Failing that it's off to an auto electrician.