Very poor article in The Sun paper by Rob Gill

oppenheimer1

DrPhilG wrote: »

1 - baited bollox. She was busting to overtake everyone on the road no matter what. I slowed on a bend and speeded up on the straight. Perfectly reasonable.
2 - yes I acted the prick, already admitted that it was childish. But sometimes a taste of your own medicine does you good. Maybe next time she won't be such an aggressive arsehole on the road.
3 - how would you know if it was dangerous, were you there? This was a very wide, long straight road. There were no other cars in sight apart from hers and mine. Unless she was in danger of driving into the ditch in shock at how much faster I was than her, I caused no danger whatsoever.
4 - would you ever get off your high horse and stop whinging for a change.

Nighty night.

I'm certainly no holier-than-thou type when it comes to driving. We all have slip ups and I'm quite forgiving in these cases. What is unforgivable though is speeding up to in excess of 140km/h in order to block someone you've baited into overtaking you. It is not your job to dish out any "lesson" for any slight, real or otherwise on the road. If someone is up on your ass, just get out of the way.

Go on, I'd love to see the straight where you thought driving at that speed was safe and appropriate. Overtaking is by far the most dangerous thing you can do on the road and instead of making it easier for this impatient woman you decided to ramp up the difficulty to prevent her from completing her manoeuvre - making it yet more dangerous.

Had you been witnessed by a Garda behaving like that, you'd be looking at a lengthy ban and a tasty fine.

To be clear, childish is flashing the lights and beeping your horn, what you did was dangerous.

goz83

Wibbs wrote: »

Yeah I can see the bumper car analogy alright. Maybe it's just me to be fair G. I've been out of modern cars for so long that they tend to feel numb to me. From kinda disconnected to "am I driving here?". The Leaf's steering has about as much feel as doing the wild thing wearing Durex xtra safe and a wetsuit. Over Skype. It has absolutely none. Then again and to be fair that's the case for the majority of current supermini type cars regardless of engine type. The instant torque certainly makes it feel fast alright. Initially anyway. IIRC the 0-100 time is around the ten sec mark? Again to be fair most superminis with small petrol engines require a calendar to time their 0-100 times. As I say if I was in the market for an urban runabout, a generic "Car" that got me from A to B, I'd almost certainly go for an EV. Probably a Leaf. It feels well bolted together and as it's a Nissan it'll be as reliable as the sun rise.

I hear ya with regards to modern cars. I started off in an old fiesta car van and christ it was a mule to steer. I only learned how to drive a car in it. I didn't have it out on the main roads. A couple years back, I bought, restored and sold an Austin mini 1000. Can't get much more naked than that for pure mechanics and feel of the road. While I enjoyed it, I also enjoy the ease of driving a modern car. For me, the balance was the many FTOs I drove. You were in touch with the road, but also had power steering, ABS and creature comforts. The exhaust note made my body tingle but I wouldn't go back to ICE. I would convert and FTO to EV and try to replicate the sound of it too :pac:

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'm certainly no holier-than-thou type when it comes to driving. We all have slip ups and I'm quite forgiving in these cases. What is unforgivable though is speeding up to in excess of 140km/h in order to block someone you've baited into overtaking you. It is not your job to dish out any "lesson" for any slight, real or otherwise on the road. If someone is up on your ass, just get out of the way.

Go on, I'd love to see the straight where you thought driving at that speed was safe and appropriate. Overtaking is by far the most dangerous thing you can do on the road and instead of making it easier for this impatient woman you decided to ramp up the difficulty to prevent her from completing her manoeuvre - making it yet more dangerous.

Had you been witnessed by a Garda behaving like that, you'd be looking at a lengthy ban and a tasty fine.

To be clear, childish is flashing the lights and beeping your horn, what you did was dangerous.

While I do think it was childish (which he already said so), I also think that the lady maybe needed to realise that overtaking is dangerous and she shouldn't be so aggressive in doing so.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

That it's atrocious behaviour on the road. Never mind the speed limit, forcing someone to stay on the other side whilst they are attempting an overtaking manoeuvre is downright dangerous.

How did force her to stay on the other side of the road? If he'd maintained the same speed as the overtaker, then yeah. But he was gone, and she stayed on the other side of her own accord.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Quite frankly you don't deserve to be on the road in any type of vehicle since you can't have manners.

I feel the same about you and the EV forum. You offer nothing but trolling, baiting and argument.

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

How did force her to stay on the other side of the road? If he'd maintained the same speed as the overtaker, then yeah. But he was gone, and she stayed on the other side of her own accord.



I feel the same about you and the EV forum. You offer nothing but trolling, baiting and argument.

I'm assuming he was in his leaf. While it has some zip especially at low speeds, it's not rocket ship.

No matter how much of an ass someone is behind you, once they go for the overtake you let them go as that is safest for everyone. I have no problem calling anyone out who behaves like tool on the road - even if they usually agree with what I post.

I'm no troll, and I don't bait. Maybe I bring argument but as far as I'm aware we're not all meant to agree on a forum. It would be a fairly dull place if we did.

Report my posts of you have a problem with them.

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'm assuming he was in his leaf. While it has some zip especially at low speeds, it's not rocket ship.

Drive one and you'll see

DrPhilG

Lol

Oppenwhiner knows nothing of the facts yet knows it all.

Much like his opinions in EVs.

DrPhilG

While I admit the alleged incident (which as I say is pure fantasy and hypothetical) was childish, I have no regrets.

This woman was driving aggressively and dangerously. The 2 original slow pokes that were in the way, she passed on a short bit of road where she had no business doing so.

If you think that the Leaf doesn't have sufficient poke at that speed to leave other cars for dead then you're simply wrong. I'm not sure what her car was but it was a big standard hatch, a Focus or similar size. And as soon as she pulled out I left.

This was a stretch of road probably half a mile long or more. Main road with loads of space and hard shoulders on both sides. And there wasn't a single other car ahead of me or oncoming.

But don't let that get in the way of a good moan.

Ps we're so many miles off topic now that even a Tesla would be short on range, so I'll leave it there.

oppenheimer1

DrPhilG wrote: »

Lol

Oppenwhiner knows nothing of the facts yet knows it all.

Much like his opinions in EVs.

I know what boasting about dangerous driving looks like

I know that it takes a leaf about 15 seconds to go from 55mph to 90mph on a rolling road, so about 20-25s in real life. That's about 800m travelled while you were playing high speed games.

Go on then, show us this mythical straight where it's safe to bomb along at 140km/h.

pwurple

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

ignoring the elephant in the room - that the product is not yet good enough for mass adoption.

What makes the Irish public so different from the Norwegian public, or the Californian public... that the product is not suitable? We eat, work, poop, breathe the very same as them. 37% of sales in Norway are EV. 51% if you include the hybrids.

I can't fathom how people can manage to plug in their iphones several times a day, but plugging in a car at their home twice a week overnight is akin to a horror show.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

While I admit the alleged incident (which as I say is pure fantasy and hypothetical) was childish, I have no regrets.

This woman was driving aggressively and dangerously. The 2 original slow pokes that were in the way, she passed on a short bit of road where she had no business doing so.

If you think that the Leaf doesn't have sufficient poke at that speed to leave other cars for dead then you're simply wrong. I'm not sure what her car was but it was a big standard hatch, a Focus or similar size. And as soon as she pulled out I left.

This was a stretch of road probably half a mile long or more. Main road with loads of space and hard shoulders on both sides. And there wasn't a single other car ahead of me or oncoming.

But don't let that get in the way of a good moan.

Ps we're so many miles off topic now that even a Tesla would be short on range, so I'll leave it there.

I've driven many small cars in my time and none of them match the torque and low down speed of the leaf. I would go so far as to say i have driven nothing less than 8 cylinders/without turbos that could get close to the leaf full on acceleration from a slow rolling start. To contradict that is to either (a) not have experience driving a leaf or (b) just arguing to be purposefully obtuse. I will leave it to each individual to decide whether it is the former or the latter. But i find in either scenario that I follow your "so I'll leave it there" advice as there's no point.

dubrov

I don't understand why so many EV owners are so keen to push the technology.
Once they go mainstream, you can kiss goodbye to free public charging.
Even with paid charging, the charge points will be congested.

You can forget about cheap charging at home. The government will work out some way to add a levy to electricity used for electric cars (probably a separately metered connection).

Cheap motor tax, insurance will also disappear.

oppenheimer1

pwurple wrote: »

What makes the Irish public so different from the Norwegian public, or the Californian public... that the product is not suitable? We eat, work, poop, breathe the very same as them. 37% of sales in Norway are EV. 51% if you include the hybrids.

I can't fathom how people can manage to plug in their iphones several times a day, but plugging in a car at their home twice a week overnight is akin to a horror show.

I can't speak for California, but EV's attract huge tax breaks in Norway. Norway has some of the world’s most generous incentives for electric vehicle buyers. Electric cars are exempt from VAT and purchase tax, which on average in Norway add 50% to the cost of a vehicle. They are also exempt from road tolls, tunnel-use charges, and ferry charges. And they get free parking, free charging, and the freedom to use bus lanes.

As far as I know, California fuel prices are far higher than the rest of the USA so that might account for higher EV uptake.

Orebro

dubrov wrote: »

I don't understand why so many EV owners are so keen to push the technology.
Once they go mainstream, you can kiss goodbye to free public charging.
Even with paid charging, the charge points will be congested.

You can forget about cheap charging at home. The government will work out some way to add a levy to electricity used for electric cars (probably a separately metered connection).

Cheap motor tax, insurance will also disappear.

No EV driver denies any of that. For me, I want to breath clean air in the City I live and work, and want clean air for my kids.

I wonder what the public reaction would be to a small bit of toxic chemical going into our drinking water to facilitate some other environmental thing like reducing CO2 emissions - would you drink that water? But you're breathing the air polluted with toxic fumes from ICE vehicles, diesels in particular?

I truly believe history will judge us with contempt that we allowed diesel fueled vehicles to share the same space as humans for so long - and in fact incentivised them!

ELM327

Orebro wrote: »

No EV driver denies any of that. For me, I want to breath clean air in the City I live and work, and want clean air for my kids.

I wonder what the public reaction would be to a small bit of toxic chemical going into our drinking water to facilitate some other environmental thing like reducing CO2 emissions - would you drink that water? But you're breathing the air polluted with toxic fumes from ICE vehicles, diesels in particular?

I truly believe history will judge us with contempt that we allowed diesel fueled vehicles to share the same space as humans for so long - and in fact incentivised them!

We will look back and laugh at diesel cars (ice cars in general) like we look now at leaded petrol, asbestos, scientists working in radioactive areas with no protections, the scientists with president Garfield who didnt believe in bacteria. And so on.

oppenheimer1

DrPhilG wrote: »

While I admit the alleged incident (which as I say is pure fantasy and hypothetical) was childish, I have no regrets.

This woman was driving aggressively and dangerously. The 2 original slow pokes that were in the way, she passed on a short bit of road where she had no business doing so.

If you think that the Leaf doesn't have sufficient poke at that speed to leave other cars for dead then you're simply wrong. I'm not sure what her car was but it was a big standard hatch, a Focus or similar size. And as soon as she pulled out I left.

This was a stretch of road probably half a mile long or more. Main road with loads of space and hard shoulders on both sides. And there wasn't a single other car ahead of me or oncoming.

But don't let that get in the way of a good moan.

Ps we're so many miles off topic now that even a Tesla would be short on range, so I'll leave it there.

Wouldn't that mean you also passed the slow drivers on a section of road you had no business overtaking on?

It's not about moaning, it's about calling out dangerous driving. The leaf has lots of poke but its no racer and would take significant time and distance to do what you did. The way you behaved wasn't childish but reckless.

Just because there's no cars in front or coming towards you doesn't mean something can't pull out in front of you. Had something come out on the nearside you'd have pushed her off the road.

A street view link of the straight will do just fine.

Wibbs

ELM327 wrote: »

I would go so far as to say i have driven nothing less than 8 cylinders/without turbos that could get close to the leaf full on acceleration from a slow rolling start. To contradict that is to either (a) not have experience driving a leaf or (b) just arguing to be purposefully obtuse.

Eh... no. Nothing less than 8 cylinders? Nonsense and it's a provable nonsense. The leaf's 0 to 100 clicks time is ten and a half seconds. That's great for a supermini. It certainly feels torquey and if anything from a dead stop even more so than a slow rolling start, but no I'm sorry, no 8 cylinders required. Having driven one I can assure you even my 20 year old 1.8 non turbo engined car would obliterate a Leaf from either a standing start or a rolling one and from around 40-50 kph it would be frankly embarrassing.

As I've said if I was in the market for a new town car the Leaf or another EV would be pretty much a given(TBH the Golf would probably swing it as the Leaf looks mank and dynamically lacking in my opinion), but let's not get carried away regarding the performance. This is a common thread with EV's. Musk really pushed this aspect, but for the most part 0-100 acceleration is a red herring as far as overall performance and practicality goes, though American car culture values it highly*.



*to the degree that for much of the 20th century, Yank tanks could go like the clappers from a standing start until they hit a bend...

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Wouldn't that mean you also passed the slow drivers on a section of road you had no business overtaking on?

No it wouldn't.

He could've easily overtaken the other two cars at a previously safe overtaking location.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Just because there's no cars in front or coming towards you doesn't mean something can't pull out in front of you. Had something come out on the nearside you'd have pushed her off the road.

Again, that's not the case.

He didn't keep her on the wrong side of the road by maintaining the same speed as her. If you read the post properly, he was after moving ahead, and she stayed on the other side of the road regardless.
So if something had come out of the nearside, Dr would've moved swerved into open road.

I'll repeat my previous assumption that you offer nothing to the EV forum but trolling, baiting and argument.

ELM327

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh... no. Nothing less than 8 cylinders? Nonsense and it's a provable nonsense. The leaf's 0 to 100 clicks time is ten and a half seconds. That's great for a supermini. It certainly feels torquey and if anything from a dead stop even more so than a slow rolling start, but no I'm sorry, no 8 cylinders required. Having driven one I can assure you even my 20 year old 1.8 non turbo engined car would obliterate a Leaf from either a standing start or a rolling one and from around 40-50 kph it would be frankly embarrassing.

As I've said if I was in the market for a new town car the Leaf or another EV would be pretty much a given(TBH the Golf would probably swing it as the Leaf looks mank and dynamically lacking in my opinion), but let's not get carried away regarding the performance. This is a common thread with EV's. Musk really pushed this aspect, but for the most part 0-100 acceleration is a red herring as far as overall performance and practicality goes, though American car culture values it highly*.



*to the degree that for much of the 20th century, Yank tanks could go like the clappers from a standing start until they hit a bend...

I'm not looking to debate this. I was of course not referring to 0-100 times.
Leaf is probably towards the upper half of its class.
I'm speaking about 0-40,0-50 etc. Where the leaf has the advantage.
I've driven pretty much every config of car available - excluding anomalities like W8/W16 etc - and there isnt anything that has been able to beat me at the lights. EG - at a two into one light where it is essentially a 0-30 with the leaf, the RS4TDI brigades and so on are left in their own diesel smoke.

goz83

dubrov wrote: »

I don't understand why so many EV owners are so keen to push the technology.
Once they go mainstream, you can kiss goodbye to free public charging.
Even with paid charging, the charge points will be congested.

You can forget about cheap charging at home. The government will work out some way to add a levy to electricity used for electric cars (probably a separately metered connection).

Cheap motor tax, insurance will also disappear.

It's about finding something great and wanting everyone else to benefit and as they benefit, we all get a cleaner environment. If that means losing cheap motoring, then so be it. My children will be here after I'm gone.

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not looking to debate this. I was of course not referring to 0-100 times.
Leaf is probably towards the upper half of its class.
I'm speaking about 0-40,0-50 etc. Where the leaf has the advantage.
I've driven pretty much every config of car available - excluding anomalities like W8/W16 etc - and there isnt anything that has been able to beat me at the lights. EG - at a two into one light where it is essentially a 0-30 with the leaf, the RS4TDI brigades and so on are left in their own diesel smoke.

Yeah......eat my static :pac:

ELM327

dubrov wrote: »

I don't understand why so many EV owners are so keen to push the technology.
Once they go mainstream, you can kiss goodbye to free public charging.
Even with paid charging, the charge points will be congested.

You can forget about cheap charging at home. The government will work out some way to add a levy to electricity used for electric cars (probably a separately metered connection).

Cheap motor tax, insurance will also disappear.

Separate meter won't work. For many reasons, such as people can charge from home generated solar, from a powerwall, etc etc. It's a no-go.

In Norway EV have arguably gone mainstream and they are not congested. It's paid charging of course but many EV owners are pro paid charging. I know I am! It will stop abuse.

Above all else, it's nonsensical to keep using such a sparse resource like fossil fuel for transportation. We should keep it for better, less harmful uses. Especially when we have the ability to power our transpotrt by renewables. Our children's children will look back at our generation and laugh (or choke) at the idea of everyone's drive having a cheap tax diesel funded by the "green party". If not our children's children, then their children.
This fossil fuel bubble can't last forever. Where will you be when the arab oil runs out or trump does something else stupid to offend the saudis and they cease production because they see us as tied to the UK who are US allies?? I tell you where I'll be.... in my EV driving to work!!

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

No it wouldn't.

He could've easily overtaken the other two cars at a previously safe overtaking location.



Again, that's not the case.

He didn't keep her on the wrong side of the road by maintaining the same speed as her. If you read the post properly, he was after moving ahead, and she stayed on the other side of the road regardless.
So if something had come out of the nearside, Dr would've moved swerved into open road.

I'll repeat my previous assumption that you offer nothing to the EV forum but trolling, baiting and argument.

If she was really pushing to overtake she would have followed his lead. Otherwise he made his move then was watching his mirror more than the road in front.

Is something had come out in front of him yes he'd be swerving into oncoming open road but also into the path of the car overtaking. Would you swerve and accelerate or swerve and brake?

Look, it was dangerous driving. End of.

DrPhilG

Sorry mods that this continues off topic, but he really won't let it go.

Lets make it really really simple. Idiot proof you might say.

She was driving aggressively. However she did not have a particularly powerful car. She was overtaking by ignorance and risk taking rather than by using acceleration.

When she tried to overtake me, the impressive acceleration of the Leaf was dramatically higher than her car and she was left for dust. She tried to follow my lead and was unable to.

If I have more time later I'll do a nice colourful diagram for you.

Ps, any Leaf owners here want to confirm Oppenwhiner's "stats" that a Leaf would take 20+ seconds to go from 55-90?

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If she was really pushing to overtake she would have followed his lead. Otherwise he made his move then was watching his mirror more than the road in front.

Is something had come out in front of him yes he'd be swerving into oncoming open road but also into the path of the car overtaking. Would you swerve and accelerate or swerve and brake?

Look, it was dangerous driving. End of.

Oh FFS, would you ever stop! Talk about going on and on and on. We get it. He drove childishly/dangerously/d1ckishly. Nobody (including DR) has said otherwise. He was just explaining why. End of.

So, anyone know what the weather is supposed to like next week?

Wibbs

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not looking to debate this.

Clearly, but it's still a nonsense.

Wibbs

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ps, any Leaf owners here want to confirm Oppenwhiner's "stats" that a Leaf would take 20+ seconds to go from 55-90?

It does the quarter mile in 19 odd seconds which isn't crazy quick by any means, but it hardly takes 20+ to go from 55 to 90. It's a very linear power delivery, which is the great thing about EV's. It blows the doors off similar dinosaur burners in its class. In its class. The notion that nothing less than 8 cylinder monsters can compete with it is eye swivellingly daft.

oppenheimer1

Wibbs wrote: »

It does the quarter mile in 19 odd seconds which isn't crazy quick by any means, but it hardly takes 20+ to go from 55 to 90. It's a very linear power delivery, which is the great thing about EV's. It blows the doors off similar dinosaur burners in its class. In its class. The notion that nothing less than 8 cylinder monsters can compete with it is eye swivellingly daft.

About 15secs from 55mph to top speed on a dyno, so you could probably expect 20secs in real life imo after drag etc.

pwurple

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I can't speak for California, but EV's attract huge tax breaks in Norway. Norway has some of the world’s most generous incentives for electric vehicle buyers. Electric cars are exempt from VAT and purchase tax, which on average in Norway add 50% to the cost of a vehicle. They are also exempt from road tolls, tunnel-use charges, and ferry charges. And they get free parking, free charging, and the freedom to use bus lanes.

As far as I know, California fuel prices are far higher than the rest of the USA so that might account for higher EV uptake.

Your point above was that the cars weren't fit for purpose, so no incentive that anyone was "banging on about" could ever make a difference?

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'm sorry but posters here are always banging on about wanting free motor tax, free parking too - as I'd they didn't get enough freebies at everyone else's expense. All under the guise of promoting EV use while ignoring the elephant in the room - that the product is not yet good enough for mass adoption.

So, now, a couple of posts later, the incentives make ALL the difference, and the cars ARE actually fit for purpose?

Have I got that straight?

DrPhilG

Drove the same road today and definitely DID NOT take the opportunity to accelerate from 55mph to 90mph to check the time.

So it is pure speculation to say that I reckon my wife would have timed it at 9.3 seconds.

oppenheimer1

DrPhilG wrote: »

Drove the same road today and definitely DID NOT take the opportunity to accelerate from 55mph to 90mph to check the time.

So it is pure speculation to say that I reckon my wife would have timed it at 9.3 seconds.

Outperformed the dyno, interesting :rolleyes:
You are aware the roads are not a drag strip?

DrPhilG

Here's a thought. Get your whiney arse into a Leaf, go get on a quiet motorway and see for yourself how quickly the car can make that acceleration.

If you're too holy to do such an outrageous and dangerous thing, drive at a leisurely pace to your local supermarket instead. Buy yourself some tissues, and dry your bloody eyes.

We're all sick of your whinging in this forum.

So again, I'm out. I have better things to be doing than entertaining your endless waffle.

isnottheword

pwurple wrote: »

So, now, a couple of posts later, the incentives make ALL the difference, and the cars ARE actually fit for purpose?

Have I got that straight?

To add to that, the conventional (ICE) car industry have never been incentivised, bailed out, etc?

oppenheimer1

pwurple wrote: »

Your point above was that the cars weren't fit for purpose, so no incentive that anyone was "banging on about" could ever make a difference?

So, now, a couple of posts later, the incentives make ALL the difference, and the cars ARE actually fit for purpose?

Have I got that straight?

No. The car is not yet good enough for mass adoption and Norway illustrates that perfectly. People are buying them because it allows them to avail of massive tax breaks and that's it. The tolled tunnel into Oslo is the equivalent of $12 each way I believe. In more affluent suburbs of Oslo 3 out of every 4 vehicles in Bus lanes are EV's. They have stacked their tax system against ICE shows itself in higher EV uptake but still it doesn't dominate the market yet like you would expect it to. That's because they are not good enough. When the tax breaks were withdrawn in Denmark, sales collapsed overnight.

If the Irish government made an announcement that every EV buyer this year was going to get €50k cheque in the post, you can bet your backside there would be queues down the road outside car dealerships. That doesn't mean the car is fit for mass adoption. All it shows is people being clever, taking advantage of their tax system.

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No. The car is not yet good enough for mass adoption and Norway illustrates that perfectly. People are buying them because it allows them to avail of massive tax breaks and that's it. The tolled tunnel into Oslo is the equivalent of $12 each way I believe. In more affluent suburbs of Oslo 3 out of every 4 vehicles in Bus lanes are EV's. They have stacked their tax system against ICE shows itself in higher EV uptake but still it doesn't dominate the market yet like you would expect it to. That's because they are not good enough. When the tax breaks were withdrawn in Denmark, sales collapsed overnight.

If the Irish government made an announcement that every EV buyer this year was going to get €50k cheque in the post, you can bet your backside there would be queues down the road outside car dealerships. That doesn't mean the car is fit for mass adoption. All it shows is people being clever, taking advantage of their tax system.

Have you considered that maybe the EV is ready for mass adoption, but people are not ready for the mass adoption of EVs? I think the incentives in Norway have only highlighted that EV works for many. I also don't think that people would buy an unsuitable vehicle just because it's got tax breaks and a few perks. It will of course be an influential factor, but the vehicle has gotta work for them.

There are a tiny number of people that I know that a 24kWh Nissan Leaf (forget about any other EV for now) would not work for. And for the majority of them, a few longer journeys per year...meaning some pit stops, would be the compromise.

oppenheimer1

goz83 wrote: »

Have you considered that maybe the EV is ready for mass adoption, but people are not ready for the mass adoption of EVs? I think the incentives in Norway have only highlighted that EV works for many. I also don't think that people would buy an unsuitable vehicle just because it's got tax breaks and a few perks. It will of course be an influential factor, but the vehicle has gotta work for them.

There are a tiny number of people that I know that a 24kWh Nissan Leaf (forget about any other EV for now) would not work for. And for the majority of them, a few longer journeys per year...meaning some pit stops, would be the compromise.

If that was the case, once the market was seeded in Denmark, it should have been able to sustain itself. The reason the market collapsed was that the loss of utility over other gains (such as environmental, low running cost) wasn't enough for people. People were buying them because the sweetener made them attractive.

Its interesting because that lets us put a monetary value on something intangible - like the freedom to be able to take a long journey, and not be unduly delayed.

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If that was the case, once the market was seeded in Denmark, it should have been able to sustain itself. The reason the market collapsed was that the loss of utility over other gains (such as environmental, low running cost) wasn't enough for people. People were buying them because the sweetener made them attractive.

Its interesting because that lets us put a monetary value on something intangible - like the freedom to be able to take a long journey, and not be unduly delayed.

You missed, or ignored the point. Just because something is suitable/ready/fit for purpose, it does not mean the masses are ready for it. It can take a long time to permanently shift the perception of people. Incentives are only a short term fix...a kick-start if you will.

I put it to you that EVs are suitable for the majority of people....and I speak in particular about Irish car owners. Put aside the wish lists. Put aside the Tesla and even the Ioniq. The bog standard Nissan Leaf would suit most....whether they want it to or not, is a different story. Would I like a 400klm range?...hell yeah! Do I need it? Nope. I rarely need more than 30klm range in a day.

unkel

Bit of an open door there, Oppenheimer. Of course EVs can't stand on their own feet. They will need plenty of subsidies for quite some time to come. And / or penalties for ICE. Withdraw all EV subsidies and up the excise on petrol / diesel so they go over EUR3/l and people will also go for EVs en masse.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

About 15secs from 55mph to top speed on a dyno, so you could probably expect 20secs in real life imo after drag etc.

That graph is tripe.

The only definite outcome is that of the Lexus.

I conclude that the Leaf is at the top of the graph and the Ferrari is at the bottom until you can actually prove otherwise. And by you I mean YOU from your own experience. Not some random info from the internet that you seem so quick to quote instead actually testing an EV for yourself.

Wibbs

goz83 wrote: »

Have you considered that maybe the EV is ready for mass adoption, but people are not ready for the mass adoption of EVs?

It would be my take G that it's six of one, half dozen of the other. There are certain limitations inherent in EV's. Range being the biggest one. The plain fact is that kilo for kilo, pound for pound a litre of fuel carries more energy than a kilo of battery. Now we keep hearing that oh it'll get better year on year, but that is pie in the sky thinking, unless a new battery technology comes along. And that has had many false dawns. Since the 90's I've read of a new battery tech(applied to laptops etc) damn near monthly and here we are still running the oul lithium.And that's before we get to the "filling up with motion lotion" issues on longer trips. Sure fans might happily have an oul coffee and sit back smug in the knowledge they're "saving the planet"(they're not*) while their Leaf recharges, but a large chunk of people won't.

Li-ion was the last big leap and that tech is commercially 25 years old. Technology tends not to improve year on year in a linear fashion. It usually sees its biggest improvements in the first phase of commercial development, with smaller increments after that when it plateaus. Li-ion is most definitely a plateau tech. What improvements we have seen(decreased charge times for example) have been because the already developed tech was applied in a new direction in EV's. Electric motors are an even more mature tech and again not much coming down the pike in real terms outside of wishful thinking.

Now for urban drivers, short distance commuters, the old dear muttering to the local Supervalu, generally high density population centres EV's are a very good bet and I said I'd buy one for that. In Ireland for I'd reckon a majority of people living in such areas, the majority of whom aren't into cars and driving, but see cars as another "white good", then they're also a no brainer. At the moment anyway.

From the big manufacturers anyway. Tesla, no way. IMHO Musk could be the DeLorean of today in leccy cars, minus the drug bust. Though he, again IMH, gives two hoots about the Teslas his company makes, they're the (massive) loss leaders and advertising for the batteries he wants to corner the market in. There's more money to be had and reliably if you produce the general "fuel" rather than having to deal with the shifting sands of making the cars that run it. Better to be an Exxon than a Ford. His car making business is a disaster with government subsidies, a horror in the making without. But he is a Barnum character with a reality distortion field that Steve Jobs would be proud of and at least Jobs produced consistent and very profitable results. Musk hasn't. Inverse profits with investor overconfidence and near religious fervour among acolytes with Iron Man fantasies? Yeah that'll end well.

My 3cents anyway. It will be an interesting coming decade anyway. That's for sure. ICE is on the wane and ICE cars will become more and more a "luxury" for aficionados, like the horse went after the horseless carriage supplanted it. That's a near given. By how much and how quickly and in how many markets and market sectors is up in the air. I already drive a "pet car" as my mechanic mate has labelled it, all I'm missing is a stable for it, so I'm ahead of the curve in that regard anyway.


*just this past week I was out and about with a mate of mine a lifetime in the motor trade and we rocked up to a place in Dublin that had a huge yard chock full of used cars of all stripes. There was even two Leafs there. And the trade values of these cars staggered me with how low they were. Early Noughties Mercs and Beemers that were 60, 70, 80,000 new quietly fading away and to be had for as low as 500 quid. Newer Beemer X5's for a few grand, Golf's for a couple of hundred quid and the like. All these were running perfectly viable cars. The sheer bloodyminded disgusting waste of our society hit home to me in a very concrete way. It felt actually sinful TBH. And the churn is getting worse not better. PCP and the like getting people into swapping out for new cars every three years, "old" perfectly serviceable cars being turned into landfill because of government(and insurance industry) and manufacturer policy. The presence of "recycled plastic" and unvarnished wood in your dash might make one feel better, but it doesn't even scratch the surface of this profligate waste. It was repellent laid out like that. And this place was one of many in Dublin alone. Sure EV's will take the obvious pollution out of our neighbourhoods, but the waste will continue apace and that's before we get to the extremely filthy costs to the environment in making EV batteries in the first place. Someone who bought a Corolla in the late 90's and is still running it is by a long margin far more "green" than some sandal wearer in a Prius. If he/she can afford the insurance. /Rant

Orebro

Now that's some serious keyboard diarrhoea.

Wibbs

unkel wrote: »

Bit of an open door there, Oppenheimer. Of course EVs can't stand on their own feet. They will need plenty of subsidies for quite some time to come. And / or penalties for ICE. Withdraw all EV subsidies and up the excise on petrol / diesel so they go over EUR3/l and people will also go for EVs en masse.

Or withdraw all incentives and let the market decide? In that case EV's would be scuppered. At the moment anyway.

Soarer wrote: »

That graph is tripe.

The only definite outcome is that of the Lexus.

I conclude that the Leaf is at the top of the graph and the Ferrari is at the bottom until you can actually prove otherwise. And by you I mean YOU from your own experience. Not some random info from the internet that you seem so quick to quote instead actually testing an EV for yourself.

Sorry S, I'm a slow bastard at the best of times, but are you saying the Leaf outperforms a Ferrari? And why is the Lex a definite? Like I say, I'm thick, you may(will) have to break out the crayons.

By the by, I've had a go in a leaf and beyond the feeling I had of an iPhone with wheels(I think that was more about the startup chime and my inherent ludditeness), it was "nippy" and certainly far more nippy than an equivalent ICE in its class, but performance/drivers car it most certainly was not(and I'm confused by folks who reckon it is. Not the ex Pious drivers, who came up from a Corolla and know no better, but the folks who have driven driver's cars previously). For a start they seem to have deliberately engineered the driving feel out of it. With extreme prejudice. The steering seemed by remote control and the brakes were more wooden than a Antiques Roadshow furniture segment(and felt "odd", though I gather that's the regen braking? And me being a caveman went "ugh" and scratched my belly looking for ticks ). The suspension did impress me mind you. No track demon, but pretty nice. And no interior squeaks, which is a real trick with a silent EV. An ICE can cover all sorts of noise.

Wibbs

Orebro wrote: »

Now that's some serious keyboard diarrhoea.

FFS O, it is me. My forearm muscles and bullshit generator are the strongest part of me. If someone ever works out a way to run a car on BS, I'll be Saudi Arabia.

unkel

Wibbs wrote:

Or withdraw all incentives and let the market decide? In that case EV's would be scuppered. At the moment anyway.

Let the market decide everything, no laws, and mankind would be gone in a few hundred years...

creedp

goz83 wrote: »

Have you considered that maybe the EV is ready for mass adoption, but people are not ready for the mass adoption of EVs? I think the incentives in Norway have only highlighted that EV works for many. I also don't think that people would buy an unsuitable vehicle just because it's got tax breaks and a few perks. It will of course be an influential factor, but the vehicle has gotta work for them.

There are a tiny number of people that I know that a 24kWh Nissan Leaf (forget about any other EV for now) would not work for. And for the majority of them, a few longer journeys per year...meaning some pit stops, would be the compromise.

To be fair why have so many people bought diesel cars for low mileage urban driving? If the kind of incentives available for EVS were available to this same category to drive small petrol cars how many people would buy them?

Ireland is not a country to argue that people would not buy inappropriate cars. Otherwise the best selling car would not be a faux suv with a small diesel engine.

There a lot of see no evil hear no evil going on in this thread. Now maybe if car companies made stylish looking ev suv with a decent range they might actually catch on despite foolish consumers. As a bonus they could also drag race them at extraordinary speeds on our fantastic road network without worrying about running out of juice and having to trudge home on foot

Soarer

Wibbs wrote: »

Sorry S, I'm a slow bastard at the best of times, but are you saying the Leaf outperforms a Ferrari? And why is the Lex a definite? Like I say, I'm thick, you may(will) have to break out the crayons.

No worries, just being facetious and bending info to suit myself. Kinda like another poster on here!

Both the Ferrari and Leaf are in Red, so to suit my "agenda", I decided that the Leaf was on top. The Lexus is the only blue line, so that's the only one that can't be queried.

jackofalltrades

goz83 wrote: »

You missed, or ignored the point. Just because something is suitable/ready/fit for purpose, it does not mean the masses are ready for it. It can take a long time to permanently shift the perception of people. Incentives are only a short term fix...a kick-start if you will.

I think the masses are ready for electric cars.
Just look at the Ioniq, a car with a quarter of the range of a petrol/diesel car.
No "premium" brand attached to it, plain enough looks(IMO) in a segment(saloon cars) that seems to be a bit stagnant.
Despite all that there have been reported delays of 6 months to get one.
I honestly don't believe the engine is an issue any more for most.

I put it to you that EVs are suitable for the majority of people....and I speak in particular about Irish car owners. Put aside the wish lists. Put aside the Tesla and even the Ioniq. The bog standard Nissan Leaf would suit most....whether they want it to or not, is a different story. Would I like a 400klm range?...hell yeah! Do I need it? Nope. I rarely need more than 30klm range in a day.

You seem to be looking at this from a very utilitarian point of view.
It's like reverse marketing, you're starting with the product and then getting the customer to change their needs/wants to suit it.
If people want a 400km range from their car then that it what you need to make.
Which IMO isn't a big ask really.

I drove 408 Kms in the I3 today 100% Battery and no Rex , boy was it fun on those twisty Galway roads !!! All for free !

It's a long time since driving put that kind of a smile on my face , I really , really like that car , I'm going to hate giving it back tomorrow !!!

Wibbs

unkel wrote: »

Let the market decide everything, no laws, and mankind would be gone in a few hundred years...

Except that until very very recently that's precisely how mankind made innovations that stuck. And I am no libertarian. Not even close, I consider that half baked I'm alright Jack "philosophy" utterly repellent. Equally I would be against too many vested interests at play deciding our future. The same market forces, forcing mankind's hand.

Soarer wrote: »

No worries, just being facetious and bending info to suit myself. Kinda like another poster on here!

Both the Ferrari and Leaf are in Red, so to suit my "agenda", I decided that the Leaf was on top. The Lexus is the only blue line, so that's the only one that can't be queried.

Ahh right. I gotcha now S. Thanks for breaking out the crayons.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

I drove 408 Kms in the I3 today 100% Battery and no Rex , boy was it fun on those twisty Galway roads !!!

If you consider an I3 "fun" on the twisties, I am pretty much convinced you have never driven an actual drivers car. Though TBH I have long held that opinion of your good self going by your posts. We would share a very different take on what a "drivers car" actually means.

All for free !

That part I get 100%.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

If you consider an I3 "fun" on the twisties, I am pretty much convinced you have never driven an actual drivers car. Though TBH I have long held that opinion of your good self going by your posts. We would share a very different take on what a "drivers car" actually means.

That part I get 100%.

Well for starters, fun is what make you smile be it a 911 or Micra, The I3 made me smile.

Yes, in my review on this forum I said it was like a bouncy castle compared to the Leaf SVE but it never felt like it was going to misbehave. The engineers did a remarkable job with the chassis giving the skinny tyres.

And it had excellent power to overtake all of which was available instantly, when I saw the right moment, hit the throttle and gone , a lot faster than the Leaf above 80 Kph.

Shefwedfan

Wibbs wrote: »

If you consider an I3 "fun" on the twisties, I am pretty much convinced you have never driven an actual drivers car. Though TBH I have long held that opinion of your good self going by your posts. We would share a very different take on what a "drivers car" actually means.

That part I get 100%.

The best fun I ever had in a car to this day was my wife's old Mitsubishi Colt. Little 3 cylinder thing and it was great fun :P:P:P

Is that an actual drivers car?