Would you accept your child if they became religious?

looksee

Mod: Hinault has been banned for one day for persisting with soapboxing.

feargale

"It does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson.

I would like to ask the A&A people here who had religious parents ( the majority, I would think ) :
1. How did your parents react when they learned that you were non-religious? Did they accept or reject you?
2. How would you like them to have reacted?

looksee

My mother was a bit religious, my dad was not religious at all. They didn't comment one way or the other when I was religious, I am not sure that the subject ever came up after I faded away. Though by that time my dad was dead and my mother had aphasia as a result of a stroke. I am pretty sure it would not have been of any consequence to them anyway.

Doctor DooM

Mother is vaguely not-really-catholic, Father is an affirmed atheist.

Neither seem really pushed about my religion or lack thereof. Which is exactly how I like it.

smacl

Both parents atheist, never was any religion in the house. Problem came with a few other Catholic friends parents who on finding out I was an atheist banned their kids from playing with me, as though atheism might be infectious*. Also remember getting called a pagan in the 70s, which was a bit odd. I guess the word atheist didn't really come into common usage in this country until quite a bit later.

(* turned out it was )

feargale

Dammit. Is there no A/A here who had conventionally religious parents?

irishman86

freshpopcorn wrote: »

As with a good amount of Atheist/Agnostic parents sometimes they decide to opt their child out of Religion in school and say we let them decide when their older and they'll accept their choice.
I know a few people who has done this and now when their children are in their late teens/early twenties they've decided to become Religious. Going to mass/getting involved with Youth 2000/wanting to get baptised/etc.
This has not gone well with their parents and they'd have always said they were open to letting them choose.
Would you accept your child if they became religious?

What a arrogant question. Didnt you decide your path, why on earth do you think you should also decide theirs. (Not you, more those who think so)
Some of the posts here, where you think you are more intelligent because you have no faith is beyond hilarious
Fair play to the guys that let there kids and live without judgement, the rest of you Im sure are very very special

oldrnwisr

feargale wrote: »

I would like to ask the A&A people here who had religious parents ( the majority, I would think ) :
1. How did your parents react when they learned that you were non-religious? Did they accept or reject you?
2. How would you like them to have reacted?

My parents were both Catholic. My dad was fairly devout and traditional when it came to traditional. My mother is still functionally Catholic but not exactly religious. It's more for a sense of community than a religious experience.

When I finally called myself an atheist (although I identified as non-religious before that) my mother was fine, she said it was my decision. My dad's reaction was a bit more difficult and our relationship was strained for a while, at least when it came to Sunday, but eventually he came to terms with it.

How would I like them to have reacted? Well, I'd have preferred an honest discussion about the issue, dealing with the problems and contradictions in the truth claims of Christianity. However, as I've since learned holds true for a lot of religious, there are people who just don't want to have their religious beliefs examined in case they don't like the answer they come up with.

smacl

irishman86 wrote: »

Didnt you decide your path, why on earth do you think you should also decide theirs.

Probably different these days, but certainly when I grew up, for most kids choice didn't come into it. You went to church on a Sunday, you went to school and got battered by the brothers or nuns, and you kept your moth shut. These days it seems to be more go to church a few times a year, call yourself a Catholic if anyone asks, and get a decent payout at communions and confirmations.

branie2

If I was an atheist, and married with kids, I'd accept they were religious

irishman86

smacl wrote: »

Probably different these days, but certainly when I grew up, for most kids choice didn't come into it. You went to church on a Sunday, you went to school and got battered by the brothers or nuns, and you kept your moth shut. These days it seems to be more go to church a few times a year, call yourself a Catholic if anyone asks, and get a decent payout at communions and confirmations.

Ireland is no way similar to back in the day though. Religion like you said is not a main factor in 99% of peoples life. Your view of the church from say the 70s(A guess) is not the current view. I dont even go to church but if my girleen wanted to practice a religion its up to her, I wont think Im better than her or any other church goer

the_syco

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I know a few people who has done this and now when their children are in their late teens/early twenties they've decided to become Religious. Going to mass/getting involved with Youth 2000/wanting to get baptised/etc.

Is the person whose bones they want to jump said religion?

Samaris

I certainly wouldn't -not- accept them! They'd still be my son or daughter. If they find solace in religion, that's fine, it's their choice and I wouldn't be ramming my opinions on religion down their throats.

Pherekydes

feargale wrote: »

I would like to ask the A&A people here who had religious parents ( the majority, I would think ) :
1. How did your parents react when they learned that you were non-religious? Did they accept or reject you?
2. How would you like them to have reacted?

My parents were devoutly catholic. They are gone a long time (22 and 14 years), so they never learned of my atheism, or their grandchildren's.

Had they lived long enough I would have hoped that would have grown to see the church for what it is. That and the subsequent fakeness of all religions.

the_syco

Pherekydes wrote: »

Had they lived long enough I would have hoped that would have grown to see the church for what it is. That and the subsequent fakeness of all religions.

My granddad was a devote christain, who went out of his way to help the local church, help the people in the local church, etc. Seeing how they treated him (or should I say, completely ignored him when he was housebound) turned my parents and all of my aunts and uncles from that side of the family off the catholic church.

Hotblack Desiato

the_syco wrote: »

My granddad was a devote christain, who went out of his way to help the local church, help the people in the local church, etc. Seeing how they treated him (or should I say, completely ignored him when he was housebound) turned my parents and all of my aunts and uncles from that side of the family off the catholic church.

If he was asset-rich with no dependants they'd have been all over him like a rash.

nozzferrahhtoo

feargale wrote: »

Dammit. Is there no A/A here who had conventionally religious parents?

Hah none here either I am afraid. My childhood experience of religion came from my parents not being religious but sending us to sunday mass (without going themselves) purely out of social habit. And of course my primary school teacher, footballer Frankie Byrne, who's flapping attempts to read us passages of the Bible and fit religion into nature walks were so poor that I grew up considering it "story time" and got quite close to 12 years old before I suddenly realized "Hang on..... people are meant to BELIEVE this stuff????"

uck51js9zml2yt

Everyone is looking for proof.

Where is the proof God doesn't exist?

nozzferrahhtoo

Aubrielle Old Tarp wrote: »

Everyone is looking for proof.

I am not sure I have met "everyone" but I know for one I do not ask theists for "proof". I think that is too lofty a goal entirely to request of them.

No, when I am in such a discussion I sit down with them and say "Ok I think we are agreed we both exist in a universe and we both want to know the explanation for this state of affairs. Have you ANY arguments, evidence, data or reasoning you can offer me that lends any credence or substantiation to the idea that the explanation....... whatever it turns out to be........... involves the actions of a non-human intentional and intelligent agency?".

That is not "proof" but invariably the answer is no..... they got nuttin.

smacl

irishman86 wrote: »

Ireland is no way similar to back in the day though. Religion like you said is not a main factor in 99% of peoples life. Your view of the church from say the 70s(A guess) is not the current view. I dont even go to church but if my girleen wanted to practice a religion its up to her, I wont think Im better than her or any other church goer

70s and 80s, but pretty much agree. As per my previous post, my older girl did take up a religion for a bit, decided it wasn't for her and moved on. I'd no issue with it and have no issue with anyone practising whatever religion they want. Only time I take issue is when someone tries to push their religion on me or my family, which realistically only really happens these days within the school system. Individual Catholics and most other religious types don't push religion outside of their own immediate families if even then, and there are practically no nuns, brothers and very few priests knocking about these days. I would draw the line with the kids joining a nastier cult such as Scientology.

smacl

Aubrielle Old Tarp wrote: »

Where is the proof God doesn't exist?

There isn't any. Same goes for Allah, Santa, the Tooth fairy, Kali, the Force, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Thor, not to mention any random deity, godling, or fantastical creature anyone could care to imagine, now or at any time in past or future. In fact there are an infinite number of such possibilities each with the same probability of being true as your God. Now given that Christianity considers its god the one true god, that leaves the probability of your God existing, without further supporting evidence, as infinitesimal, i.e one in infinity. So while I cannot prove God does not exist, I have less reason to believe he does exist than to believe I will win the Euromillions lottery.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Esho

hinault wrote: »

Which family tradition? The Communist tradition or the Catholic tradition - how strong can a tradition be where there is a family containing a Communist and a Catholic:P

God doesn't benefit one iota from the belief of people/person.
God cannot be added to, or diminished from, by one's belief or lack thereof.

The primary beneficiary of belief is the soul who believes in God and tries as best they can to adhere to God's commands.

The tradition of dogmatism, which is probably as strong for the Communist as the Catholic.

I agree with you (even though I don't believe in God) that it is the individual that benefits from their religious practice - I've met some amazingly beautiful Buddhists and Moslems, who def have a beautiful life state.

Hotblack Desiato

Not so beautiful a life state for women, though, is it?

hinault

Esho wrote: »

The tradition of dogmatism, which is probably as strong for the Communist as the Catholic.

Communism begins where Atheism begins.

According to Karl Marx.
Be careful what you - and some others here - wish for.

Samaris

hinault wrote: »

Communism begins where Atheism begins.

According to Karl Marx.
Be careful what you - and some others here - wish for.

Honestly.

What he -said- was;

Communism begins from the outset with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction.

from Karl Marx. Private Property and Communism

The -actual full sentence- appears to indicates that atheism is a first step towards his concepts of a communist state (which for him was based on ideas of egalitarianism, since he was developing the concepts at this point), but it is not enough in itself, merely a starting factor. That is so amazingly not what you wrote that I just..honestly. No, being an atheist does not make you a Communist, for heaven's sake, even if it can be one starting point. Not all roads lead to Dublin and sometimes I may well be going to Wexford.

He also said and this is the full sentence;

"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."

Karl Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right: Introduction, December 1843 – January 1844, Deutsch-Französische Jahrbücher.

If anything, he is indicating that religion, the "opiate of the masses" needs to be brought down to encourage people to fight for a good life on earth rather than remaining meek and downtrodden (by 1880s standards, btw) in the hopes of a reward after death - while the rich and powerful who control them have very happy lives on earth and no-one actually knows what happens beyond death anyway.

If we're going to get into Marxism at all, which seems a tad unnecessary. Btw, I haven't read the full chapters, which would also be useful for context and may impact my interpretation of his words as above, but it's a still more accurate than the original five-word summary.

oldrnwisr

Aubrielle Old Tarp wrote: »

Everyone is looking for proof.

Where is the proof God doesn't exist?

Well, that would depend on what you mean by God.

For example, if you mean the deist conception of God then there's very little testable claims to deal with. Deists only claim that a god exists and that said God created the universe but doesn't interact with it. Therefore, there's no mechanism to tell if the claim is true or not. Which means we ought not to believe in it.

However, if you mean the biblical God (and given your posting history I suspect you do) then yes, we can show proof that the Christian God doesn't exist. We can unpick the stories presented in the bible showing how each of them were borrowed from an earlier mythos and how the biblical god is a composite character. But this will take a while so perhaps it's best for you to pick a starting point. There's a lot to go through including the Enuma Elish, the Akkadian epic of Atrahasis, the tale of Ziusudra, the Akkadian, Ugaritic, Babylonian, Sumerian and Egyptian religions and that's before we get to the evidence from history, geography, science etc. We can demonstrate not only the earlier myths which lead to the invention of Yahwheh/Jehovah but also show how individual stories and books in the OT are fictional like the fall of Jericho or the wisdom of Solomon. And then we can move on to the NT and show that the gospels are fictional pseudohistorical novels like those written by Harry Turtledove or Neal Stephenson with stories borrowed from Greek myth and literature, Egyptian myth or even the OT itself.
So where would you like to begin?

The real problem with your argument though is trying to shift the burden of proof in the first place. As has probably been explained to you by someone before the burden of proof lies with the person making the positive claim, i.e. that a god exists. This is how the world works. This is why we don't allow drug companies to sell their new medicine until they can show that it does work. We don't or wouldn't accept a drug company saying "well show us the proof our new drug doesn't work".

This link might help explain in more detail:

Shifting the Burden of Proof

or if you're more visually inclined:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KayBys8gaJY

MrPudding

branie2 wrote: »

If I was an atheist, and married with kids, I'd accept they were religious

What if you were an atheist and not married with kids? What does being married have to do with the question?

MrP

Esho

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not so beautiful a life state for women, though, is it?

Even though,your comment reads like a blanket generalisation, from the majority Moslems I've met, no, not even remotely.

And I would be equally as unhappy if my daughter wanted to join any of the Sunni or Shia communities I've encountered here as if she wanted to to join the Scientologists.

That said, I don't know that much about how women are regarded in the group
I'm thinking of.

spacecoyote

Aubrielle Old Tarp wrote: »

Where is the proof God doesn't exist?

I liked Ricky Gervais talk with Stephen Colbert around all of this topic.

I'm slightly paraphrasing here but he in essence said:

"Whats the difference between me & you Stephen? There are around 3000 different Gods, you don't believe in 2,999 of them, I don't believe in 1 more"

Hotblack Desiato

Esho wrote: »

Even though,your comment reads like a blanket generalisation, from the majority Moslems I've met, no, not even remotely.

If it's a blanket generalisation, it's no more one than your post was.

So, so many people are open to what they see as the positives of religion but overlook the negatives.

As far as I'm concerned, and all things considered, religion is a negative influence on the world, and that's taking into account the (often conditional) 'good' they do.

It seems to me that you are giving a free pass to certain religions for no other reason than that their ills are less familiar to you than those of western religions.

c_man

It's an interesting topic, and I can definitely see your average atheist would be bothered by it. I know of one girl who came from an atheistic household but later found God, her parents refused to come to her wedding ceremony or later baby's baptism. A rather extreme example but she's deffo not alone in having family issues after converting/start practicing.

It'd be the shoe on the other foot for me, but in the event I wouldn't descend to the levels of pettiness that all too often surfaces in this. I'd still pray for them adn you really never know the way things work out.

silverharp

c_man wrote: »

It's an interesting topic, and I can definitely see your average atheist would be bothered by it. I know of one girl who came from an atheistic household but later found God, her parents refused to come to her wedding ceremony or later baby's baptism. A rather extreme example but she's deffo not alone in having family issues after converting/start practicing.

It'd be the shoe on the other foot for me, but in the event I wouldn't descend to the levels of pettiness that all too often surfaces in this. I'd still pray for them adn you really never know the way things work out.

thats dickish behaviour, Im off to my cousin's baptism later today catholics are good at marking social occasions,Ill give em that

Esho

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If it's a blanket generalisation, it's no more one than your post was.

So, so many people are open to what they see as the positives of religion but overlook the negatives.

As far as I'm concerned, and all things considered, religion is a negative influence on the world, and that's taking into account the (often conditional) 'good' they do.

It seems to me that you are giving a free pass to certain religions for no other reason than that their ills are less familiar to you than those of western religions.

No, if you read my post you will see that I was being very specific, and not generalising.

I have got to know some people who practice in Muslim and Buddhist sects/ groups who are wonderful people, a breath of fresh air to meet. Same as some in Christian groups, I will add.

I don't know enough about Buddhist groups, but the Muslim group would not be one of the mainstream/ orthodox ones.
Neither were the positive Christians I met part of the Roman Catholic church.

It seems to me that to be a child growing up in such a practice/ belief system would be positive. But to grow up to learn to regard another as inferior
on the basis of their religion/ marital status/ sexual orientation to name but a few would be negative. Which - I believe - happens in most of the mainstream religions.

Would the world be a better place if all religions vanished overnight?

Interesting to see what would replace it.

feargale

hinault wrote: »

Communism begins where Atheism begins.

Oh yeah? Jim Callaghan, Nick Clegg, Alastair Campbell, Robin Cook, Roy Hattersley, Milton Friedman, Alfred Nobel, Woody Allen, Larry Adler, Richard Branson, Andrew Carnegie, John Maynard Keynes, Johan Cruyff?
What nonsense!

GritBiscuit

As long as they're happy, healthy, kind and have sufficient success in life to at least support themselves, if not splash out occasionally - I'm a happy bunny...I don't care what sexual orientation, religion, dress sense, hair colour, piercings, tattoos or anything else they have. I'm just a temporary guardian until they take over all their own duties and choices, I don't think it is at all appropriate to demand they conform to my way of thinking or face estrangement...unless they become Tory or Trump fans...we may have to have words then. :pac: