Season 7 Speculation thread - "Book readers"

Nody

Anything after this post may contain spoilers and/or accurate speculation about what will happen in future episodes. Do not read further if this would potentially upset you!

This thread is for speculating on what future episodes of season 7 will bring and until such a thread is set up season 8 will be covered by this thread as well. If you wish to reference an interview then spoiler tag the interview and the conclusion to allow people to choose themselves if they wish to know or not. If you use book related information as far as possible try to be specific in what you're using as reference (i.e. which book/time in the story) to allow other people to reference it themselves.

Thread will be unlocked on Sunday evening.

Savage Tyrant

Here we go.... it's better than the anticipation for Christmas as a child.

EagererBeaver

Who will be the first to taste Brianne's sweet loins, Tormund or Jaime?

Nody

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Who will be the first to taste Brianne's sweet loins, Tormund or Jaime?

Tormund because Jaime will die strangling/driving a sword through Cersei and Cersei responds with some stabby stabby poison weapon back.

podgemonster

Right i'll have a go....


Dany will send Yara to Dorne and setup an assault on Casterly Rock.

Eurons gift will be Tyrion whom he'll take while distracting Dragonstone with a naval attack while Yara is away. Without Tyrion, Dany will later make errors in her assault on Westorros. Sam's message will send Jon south to meet Dany to get Dragonglass. Dany will dismiss the notions of WW without Tyrion to vouch for Jon Snow. Dany and Jon will have some sexual tension.

LF will tell Jon he is a Targ before he goes. While away LF will try and get a powerplay at Winterfell and Sansa will see through it and have Yohn Royce kill him, LF will be ready for it and escape. Robin Arynn of The Vale turns against House Stark and takes the riverlands( or sides with Cersei) and cuts off Jon's return.

Ayra while heading south will encounter Gendry in trouble and be distracted on her quest for vengeance to help him. Tyrion will be tortured in Kingslanding by Cersei. Sam as a punishment for breaching the citadel rules will be made treat the greyscale victims and will cure Jorah using Dragonglass.

Melisandre goes to Dragonstone, she will communicate what the red priest is seeing in the flames which is what sends Jon back to the wall via boat (with loads of Dragonglass) to fight with the Brotherhood without Banners, Wildlings and the Nights Watch (who with the help of Bran will know also where the Night King will attack).

Dany's forces will attack and take Casterly rock but House Tarly will usurp Olenna Tryell and join the Lannisters betraying any allegiance with Dorne and by association Dany. Jaime will try to take back his kingdom. The remaining Lannister forces with the Vale, Euron and Highgarden will fight Unsullied, Dothraki, Dornish and Greyjoys but his forces will be completely annihilated by the dragons. Jaime in a desperate but ingenious move will slay one of the Dragons (Not Drogon).

Yara and Theon will be lured into a Naval Battle in Blackwater Bay, Cersei will look to a battered Tyrion for hep defend the city again. Euron will arrive, barely defeat and kill Yara. Theon will survive, scale into Kings Landing and he'll be the "little brother" that will kill Cersei.


The entire attack by the Night King is one huge distractions and they climb the wall somewhere else and knock it using magic.The Night King makes it over the wall, raises his arms and the corpse of Dany's dead dragon will awaken with Blue Eyes. End of Season.


The series writes itself. Very predictable.

leggo

Wrote these predictions last night before watching. None are disproved yet, though Arya seems less likely and I think Euron will be stronger than I reckoned with. The montage part has pretty much already happened too!

Game of Thrones S7 Predictions

• Under influence from Littlefinger, Sansa asks Jon to go on a mission beyond the wall to fight the Night King, believing he'll die and she can consolidate power. Jon survives and realises this. The Brotherhood Without Banners are wiped out in this battle, except for The Hound.

• Brianne is expelled from Sansa's service after opposing many of her moves, joins the Lannisters. A love story with Jaime is strongly hinted.

• Bran returns to Winterfell and is imprisoned by Littlefinger and Sansa as he's the true Lord of Winterfell and a threat. A mysterious girl served and befriends him. He confides stuff he's seen in her, including that Littlefinger betrayed Ned. That girl turns out to be Arya under another face, who kills Littlefinger.

• Yara dies in the battle with Euron, who is also killed and loses, leaving Theon as reluctant ruler of the Iron Islands.

• Sam and Gilly read books. A lot of books. Hopefully there's a Rocky-style montage of them reading, getting the other's attention, pointing to something cool they've read and high fiving.

• Dany touches down in Dragonstone and makes a pact with Jon Snow. Is even more invincible and, thus, boring.

• In the Battle For Casterly Rock, Bronn is killed 😔. Dany's army, led by Tyrion, destroy the Lannisters and take Jaime prisoner. Tyrion convinces Jaime that Cersei has gone full mad queen and needs to be stopped. Jaime agrees and, as Cersei is about to push the self-destruct button as Dany closes in on her, Jaime kills her then himself. There's a heartbreaking scene where Brienne finds his body. Dany claims the Iron Throne cus the last 6 series are pointless if she doesn't. The Seven Kingdoms are united just as...

• The series ends with the Wall falling and the Army of the Dead wiping out the Night's Watch. Winter is here and everyone is ****ed.

transylman

First episode confirms that the script leaks were genuine, with every single detail correct. Avoid speculation or spoiler threads like the plague.

Lady Spangles

podgemonster wrote: »

Right i'll have a go....


Dany will send Yara to Dorne and setup an assault on Casterly Rock.

Er, Dorne is nowhere near the Westerlands.

podgemonster

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Er, Dorne is nowhere near the Westerlands.

Er, Ships

CMOTDibbler

leggo wrote: »

• Sam and Gilly read books. A lot of books. Hopefully there's a Rocky-style montage of them reading, getting the other's attention, pointing to something cool they've read and high fiving.

You got the Rocky montage alright.

CMOTDibbler

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Er, Dorne is nowhere near the Westerlands.

It's not that far. Out of Blackwater Bay, hang a right, sail down the coast and hang another right and you're basically at Sunspear.

podgemonster

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's not that far. Out of Blackwater Bay, hang a right, sail down the coast and hang another right and you're basically at Sunspear.

Blackwater bay is in Kings Landing. The westerlands is on the opposite side.

It's a far commute but Yara did go from Pyke to the Dreadfort in Season 4 (open to correction) which is an entire navigation around 6 if the 7 kingdoms. She's well able to take ships from Dragonstone to Casterly Rock stopping somewhere in Dorne to stock up.

CMOTDibbler

podgemonster wrote: »

Blackwater bay is in Kings Landing. The westerlands is on the opposite side.

It's a far commute but Yara did go from Pyke to the Dreadfort in Season 4 (open to correction) which is an entire navigation around 6 if the 7 kingdoms. She's well able to take ships from Dragonstone to Casterly Rock stopping somewhere in Dorne to stock up.

I assumed 'Westerlands' was a mistake, since Yara and Dany are all at Dragonstone which is in Blackwater Bay. Or specifically, de nortside of Blackwater Bay.

CMOTDibbler

Sleepy wrote: »

The Queen of Thornes isn't going to be on one of the ships, she'll be back in Highgarden.

Nope.

You can see her in the map room on Dragonstone in the episode two trailer.

Warning: that is a real spoiler from a trailer.

Sleepy

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Nope.

You can see her in the map room on Dragonstone in the episode two trailer.

Warning: that is a real spoiler from a trailer.

Didn't catch that. Still:

She's highly unlikely to be on a ship during a battle and that's where Euron stands a chance of grabbing prisoners during a naval battle. He doesn't stand a chance of pulling off a ground assault against Dragonstone

CMOTDibbler

Sleepy wrote: »

Didn't catch that. Still:

She's highly unlikely to be on a ship during a battle and that's where Euron stands a chance of grabbing prisoners during a naval battle. He doesn't stand a chance of pulling off a ground assault against Dragonstone

Yeah, I agree. Same as for Tyrion above I reckon.

Also

Ellaria Sand is also present in that scene in the trailer.

Conall Cernach

podgemonster wrote: »

Blackwater bay is in Kings Landing. The westerlands is on the opposite side.

It's a far commute but Yara did go from Pyke to the Dreadfort in Season 4 (open to correction) which is an entire navigation around 6 if the 7 kingdoms. She's well able to take ships from Dragonstone to Casterly Rock stopping somewhere in Dorne to stock up.

At that stage I think the Iron Born still held some parts of The North so she may have just led a raiding party cross country on horseback rather than sail all the way around Westeros.

Riddle101

I'm guessing that Varys will tell Jon Snow about Littlefinger betraying Ned Stark, thus revealing Littlefinger's treachery.

CMOTDibbler

Riddle101 wrote: »

I'm guessing that Varys will tell Jon Snow about Littlefinger betraying Ned Stark, thus revealing Littlefinger's treachery.

This is a speculation thread, I don't think there's any need to spoiler tag stuff that's already been seen.

Arya also heard and saw Littlefinger in discussions with Tywin. There was little doubt that he was working with the Lannisters from that scene. And she's on her way to Winterfell. Jon's not there, but Sansa is and Sansa knows all about how treacherous Littlefinger can be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9jac7Qg9w4

There's a good chance that Littlefinger recognised Arya. He kept looking at her from the point she spilled the wine. Whether he was 100% sure or not, he did nothing about it. Possibly because he would have felt there was no danger to him from a little girl who was clearly already in a dangerous situation. He might come to regret that.

Savage Tyrant

Anyone want to speculate on major character deaths by the end of this season?

2 episodes in. We've lost 2 sand snakes.
The 3rd sand snake
Elleria
Yara, can't see any of those 3 surviving more than another couple of episodes.
Cersie should meet her demise by the end of the season finale I think.
Grey Worm (taking Casterly Rock)
Littlefinger's meddling should catch up pretty soon, though I wouldn't be too surprised if he makes it to season 8.
I don't think Euron will survive this season either. Possibly dragon BBQ

bnt

I speculate that this season shall witness the return of Shagga a.k.a. "Casterly Rock with Hair".

CMOTDibbler

Trailer for next week is out now. You'll find it in the usual places.

Ah sure why not link it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2pRLR6Ns5I

Riddle101

bnt wrote: »

I speculate that this season shall witness the return of Shagga a.k.a. "Casterly Rock with Hair".

I was just thinking about this the other day actually. In Season 1, Tyrion enlisted the help of Shagga and the Stormcrows. He promised them The Vale of Arryn, yet they haven't appeared since. So I guess Tyrion broke his promise to them in a way. Or maybe Tyrion still has some unfinished business there.

bnt

In A Clash of Kings, Shagga and his Stormcrows play an important role in The Battle of the Blackwater, entering the Kingswood south of King's Landing, raiding Stannis Baratheon's camps and taking out his scouts. The result was that Stannis was blind to Tywin Lannister and his reinforcements approaching King's Landing, which turned out to be pivotal. After the battle, according to A Storm of Swords, the Stone Crows stayed in the Kingswood, making occasional raids to the North, and that's the last we heard of them AFAIK. So I wonder ...

podgemonster

Fairly certain the "Mama" scene from the Sandsnake prior to the attack is to remind us that remaining Sandsnake is Ellayria's daughter. So I presume the Queen's justice is having Ellayria's daughter murdered in front of her. Jaime will try to convince Cersei to keep Ellayria as a hostage but may not be convincing enough.


But Cersei isn't the only Queen, with Jon and Davos coming to Dragonstone, what Melisandre did to Shireen will be revealed to Dany. Dany may well have the Red Woman killed for killing a child.

J. Marston

Yep, Tyene is going to meet with a brutal end. Mountain's plaything, head crushed like Oberyn in front of Ellaria, Qyburn live test subject.

Gonna be grim.

Riddle101

I have a bad feeling about Bronn this season. In the book, Cersei tries to have Bronn killed because of his connection to Tyrion. He managed to evade capture in the book, but in the show I just don't know. Maybe Cersei will try to have Bronn killed.

podgemonster

Riddle101 wrote: »

I have a bad feeling about Bronn this season. In the book, Cersei tries to have Bronn killed because of his connection to Tyrion. He managed to evade capture in the book, but in the show I just don't know. Maybe Cersei will try to have Bronn killed.

I think he's a small fish in the greater scheme and not on Cersei radar in the TV show. He'll be drawn out when Lannisters go to battle as his hold was granted to him by the Lannisters. He's a good foil to tap into the mind of Jaime/Tyrion and he's entertaining and a show favourite so he may survive.


If I had to guess a death for Bronn this season, Dragon Feed.

PhlegmyMoses

Probably been theorised a million times on the Internet, but if not, anybody think that Arya is going to be the valonqar? Cersei is the big dog on her list and she seems to have set her sights on her. She can obviously take on the appearance of anybody that is dead/she kills, so theoretically, she could pretend to be Jamie to get close and do what she needs to, all the while techinically fulfilling the prophecy. Obviously this requires Jamie to be killed off, but I am just thinking about reasons to include the whole faceless man training that she has received. It feels like a real Chekhov's Gun situation that we were reminded of in the first episode, but hasn't really reached its crescendo.

Probably won't happen, just something I thought of, which has probably been posted loads of times over the years.

Conall Cernach

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Probably been theorised a million times on the Internet, but if not, anybody think that Arya is going to be the valonqar? Cersei is the big dog on her list and she seems to have set her sights on her. She can obviously take on the appearance of anybody that is dead/she kills, so theoretically, she could pretend to be Jamie to get close and do what she needs to, all the while techinically fulfilling the prophecy. Obviously this requires Jamie to be killed off, but I am just thinking about reasons to include the whole faceless man training that she has received. It feels like a real Chekhov's Gun situation that we were reminded of in the first episode, but hasn't really reached its crescendo.

Probably won't happen, just something I thought of, which has probably been posted loads of times over the years.

Could "Valonqar" be another of those High Valerian unisex terms like "Prince/Princess" so that instead of "Little brother" it could also mean "little sister?" Then Arya killing Cersei while disguised as Jamie would be covered both ways.

leggo

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Probably been theorised a million times on the Internet, but if not, anybody think that Arya is going to be the valonqar? Cersei is the big dog on her list and she seems to have set her sights on her. She can obviously take on the appearance of anybody that is dead/she kills, so theoretically, she could pretend to be Jamie to get close and do what she needs to, all the while techinically fulfilling the prophecy. Obviously this requires Jamie to be killed off, but I am just thinking about reasons to include the whole faceless man training that she has received. It feels like a real Chekhov's Gun situation that we were reminded of in the first episode, but hasn't really reached its crescendo.

Probably won't happen, just something I thought of, which has probably been posted loads of times over the years.

It's a really good theory that would be a great payoff to the Faceless Men story, and I could see the books pulling it off well, but it'd be weird on the show. To make the twist good you'd have to have Jaime killed off in secret beforehand and have Arya be him for a while without us knowing. But then you're not showing us the death of many's favourite character, which is a big deal, or have to do flashbacks which would really sell Jaime short. It's easily done in the books as GRRM could easily just write a few chapters with Jaime as a perspective character with hints thrown in, but the misdirection on the show would piss a lot of people off.

Kunkka

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

Anyone want to speculate on major character deaths by the end of this season?

2 episodes in. We've lost 2 sand snakes.
The 3rd sand snake
Elleria
Yara, can't see any of those 3 surviving more than another couple of episodes.
Cersie should meet her demise by the end of the season finale I think.
Grey Worm (taking Casterly Rock)
Littlefinger's meddling should catch up pretty soon, though I wouldn't be too surprised if he makes it to season 8.
I don't think Euron will survive this season either. Possibly dragon BBQ

I agree with everyone on this list except Littlefinger. He will be there until the bitter end in my opinion. I reckon Sansa will come across another real romantic interest and like with Catelyn, Littlefinger will be dishonored by him, or killed near the end. I think given what drove Littlefinger's ambition in the books through his love for Cat, this would be a sweet end for the little ****. Any other simple death would not warrant his crimes.

I also think we are due another shock this season, a leading character that isn't someone we hate will be killed. I had thought if Ayra went to KL that she might be killed by the Mountain which would lead to the final stand off we've all hoped for with Sandor but not looking likely now. Hmm...

CMOTDibbler

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Probably been theorised a million times on the Internet, but if not, anybody think that Arya is going to be the valonqar? Cersei is the big dog on her list and she seems to have set her sights on her. She can obviously take on the appearance of anybody that is dead/she kills, so theoretically, she could pretend to be Jamie to get close and do what she needs to, all the while techinically fulfilling the prophecy. Obviously this requires Jamie to be killed off, but I am just thinking about reasons to include the whole faceless man training that she has received. It feels like a real Chekhov's Gun situation that we were reminded of in the first episode, but hasn't really reached its crescendo.

Probably won't happen, just something I thought of, which has probably been posted loads of times over the years.

I don't think prophecies 'do' tchnicalities. That sort of misdirection wouldn't even qualify as a technicality, becaise it would be someone disguiised as her brother or looking like her brother which wouldn't really come close.

Afaik, Valonqar meanse sibling rather than brother. There's also some doubt as to Tyrion's exact parentage, so that only leaves Jaime.

PhlegmyMoses

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't think prophecies 'do' tchnicalities. That sort of misdirection wouldn't even qualify as a technicality, becaise it would be someone disguiised as her brother or looking like her brother which wouldn't really come close.

Afaik, Valonqar meanse sibling rather than brother. There's also some doubt as to Tyrion's exact parentage, so that only leaves Jaime.

They've said in the books that prophecies are very vague pretty much throughout, no? Kind of like wishes from a genie kind of thing, they have pitfalls and can be interpreted many ways.

Anyway, probably won't happen, I am just trying to understand what the faceless man arc payoff will be. Will hardly be Walder Frey, surely?

Dyr

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't think prophecies 'do' tchnicalities. That sort of misdirection wouldn't even qualify as a technicality, becaise it would be someone disguiised as her brother or looking like her brother which wouldn't really come close.

Afaik, Valonqar meanse sibling rather than brother. There's also some doubt as to Tyrion's exact parentage, so that only leaves Jaime.

Is valonqar not also the nick name for a poison that strangles?

mewso

While I still enjoy the show I feel like it has becomes a total slave to fan service and the generation of memes and that is probably the best way to make predictions.

Arya - basically she will just keep killing in increasingly more disturbing ways that should give pause but will generate cheers in the twitterverse every time. I predict she will be missing for an episode or two while we are kept guessing as to where she will end up and suddenly appear at some point to do something 'cool' but very violent to someone we hate and the masses will gleefully ignore another very unsettling development for her as a character.

Cersei/Jaime - Some people are wondering when Jaime is going to turn on his sister but I think he will end up dying in an effort to save her with a reminder that his love for her is what trumps any kind of possible redemption.

Theon - poor old Theon is on the redemption yoyo train hopefully heading for the last stop. I think brave sacrifice was invented for him. How? I'm not sure but surely killing Euron-sey is the most likely.

Jon/Dany - I'm really not sure how this meeting will go. What can the writers do here. Will they fancy each other?

Tyrion - I'm kinda annoyed that they might knock him back again for his error in judgement when they discover the fleet is destroyed. The plan was as nonsensical as anything else this show has thrown at us but everyone in the room seemed to think it was genius at the time. Maybe Dany will turn on him at the end of this season only for him to win her back midway through the final season as he returns running in slow motion hand in hand with Jorah to save the day.

My final prediction completely out of thin air and based on the desperate need for wow moments is that Lady Stoneheart will make an appearance at some point soon.

leggo

mewso wrote: »

My final prediction completely out of thin air and based on the desperate need for wow moments is that Lady Stoneheart will make an appearance at some point soon.

I'd love it but I think that dream went up in smoke when The Hound met up with the Brotherhood Without Banners last year. That felt like their last chance to introduce her and they passed.

Savage Tyrant

leggo wrote: »

I'd love it but I think that dream went up in smoke when The Hound met up with the Brotherhood Without Banners last year. That felt like their last chance to introduce her and they passed.

I agree. She's not with the brotherhood , and it's far too late to resurrect her now. It just wouldn't make any sense.

mewso

leggo wrote: »

I'd love it but I think that dream went up in smoke when The Hound met up with the Brotherhood Without Banners last year. That felt like their last chance to introduce her and they passed.

That was always my feeling but never underestimate these writers. "Clegane you've earned the right to know one of our most closely guarded secrets..."

mewso

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

It just wouldn't make any sense.

Perfectly in keeping with many of the recent story lines.

J. Marston

My guess on Ellaria and Tyene's fate. Cersei will sentence both to death, Jaime won't have a problem with this but Bronn might due to his affection/lust for Bad Poosy but mainly for his desire to move up in the world.

During season 5 when Jaime visited Bronn to recruit him for the trip to Dorne, he promised him a "Much better girl and a much better castle" in return for joining him. I think Bronn calls in that favour for an arranged marriage to Tyene.

Ellaria will still be executed (She deserves it) leaving Tyene as heir to Sunspear and Jaime then convinces Cersei to send her back to Sunspear under the condition that she withdraws all support for Dany. Tyene has lost her Mother, Father and Sisters so has been bowed, bent and broken. She accepts.

Or scenario B. Cersei says "Ser Gregor, smashy smashy."

leggo

As cool as it'd be to see Bronn rise that high, he wouldn't have that sway. Hell I doubt much Jaime could say these days could sway Cersei when she's in 'destroy your enemies' mode, much less a random knight. I think it's going to be more an eye for an eye: it's no coincidence that Euron took Ellaria and her daughter after Ellaria killer Cersei's daughter. Also Cersei isn't going to let any of the Sand Snakes live, much less hold a position of power again. Sending Tyene home to rule Dorne would be just giving her and the Dornish army back to Dany, leaving her doubly pissed now both of her parents would've died at the hands of Lannisters.

Plus, as I learned here last week, Cersei and Bronn are to be kept away from each other under all circumstances. So I doubt he'll be involved in this storyline in any way.

CMOTDibbler

leggo wrote: »

As cool as it'd be to see Bronn rise that high, he wouldn't have that sway. Hell I doubt much Jaime could say these days could sway Cersei when she's in 'destroy your enemies' mode, much less a random knight. I think it's going to be more an eye for an eye: it's no coincidence that Euron took Ellaria and her daughter after Ellaria killer Cersei's daughter. Also Cersei isn't going to let any of the Sand Snakes live, much less hold a position of power again. Sending Tyene home to rule Dorne would be just giving her and the Dornish army back to Dany, leaving her doubly pissed now both of her parents would've died at the hands of Lannisters.

Plus, as I learned here last week, Cersei and Bronn are to be kept away from each other under all circumstances. So I doubt he'll be involved in this storyline in any way.

Yeah. I think Ellaria will be left alive though, to keep Dorne in line. As long as she's alive, there's unlikely to be someone else to take over and renew hostilities with Kings Landing. And Cersei can't afford to have a presence in Dorne to keep them in line. So Ellaria is a hostage to keep the Dornish army out of the picture.

Tyene, not so much.

leggo

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yeah. I think Ellaria will be left alive though, to keep Dorne in line. As long as she's alive, there's unlikely to be someone else to take over and renew hostilities with Kings Landing. And Cersei can't afford to have a presence in Dorne to keep them in line. So Ellaria is a hostage to keep the Dornish army out of the picture.

Tyene, not so much.

The interesting thing is that that's the smart way to play it. But is Cersei smart anymore? Is this the shrewd daughter of Tywin Lannister or is this a vengeful mother out for blood now her children are dead? All evidence suggests that she thinks she's shrewd, but Cersei's actions are typically emotional and speed up the demise of her and those around her, rather than slow it down. Tyrion is the child who inherited Tywin's savvy, as much as the pair of them may hate that.

So, whatever Cersei does with Ellaria and Tyene, I fully expect it to be based on emotion and ultimately be an act of self-harm, even if it feels good in the moment. That's who Cersei is, she can't help herself.

CMOTDibbler

leggo wrote: »

The interesting thing is that that's the smart way to play it. But is Cersei smart anymore? Is this the shrewd daughter of Tywin Lannister or is this a vengeful mother out for blood now her children are dead? All evidence suggests that she thinks she's shrewd, but Cersei's actions are typically emotional and speed up the demise of her and those around her, rather than slow it down. Tyrion is the child who inherited Tywin's savvy, as much as the pair of them may hate that.

So, whatever Cersei does with Ellaria and Tyene, I fully expect it to be based on emotion and ultimately be an act of self-harm, even if it feels good in the moment. That's who Cersei is, she can't help herself.

Well she said to Jaime that she hadn't listened to Tywin for forty years without learning something. So I suspect that she's shrewd enough alright.

If you think about what she's done so far, I'd say she's been shrewd. In one fell swoop, she eliminated all her enemies in Kings Landing. It was ruthless and decisive and left her completely in control, from a position where she was in great danger.

Then she found an ally when it seemed everyone was against her. And that ally has removed two of her enemies. And she didn't jump at Euron's offer either. She forced him to prove himself.

And it's cost her nothing so far. Certainly not in terms of fighting men or territory. I don't think she's being emotional at all. Absolutely cold and calculating.

leggo

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Well she said to Jaime that she hadn't listened to Tywin for forty years without learning something. So I suspect that she's shrewd enough alright.

If you think about what she's done so far, I'd say she's been shrewd. In one fell swoop, she eliminated all her enemies in Kings Landing. It was ruthless and decisive and left her completely in control, from a position where she was in great danger.

Then she found an ally when it seemed everyone was against her. And that ally has removed two of her enemies. And she didn't jump at Euron's offer either. She forced him to prove himself.

And it's cost her nothing so far. Certainly not in terms of fighting men or territory. I don't think she's being emotional at all. Absolutely cold and calculating.

You're at the crux of what makes Cersei a great character. All of her moves, at the time, seem like they're the right play. But take a step back and look at her primary driving forces. What do we know Cersei has wanted all of her life? To be the queen, to be a good mother and to avoid the prophecy. And yet all of her actions, while seeming the right move at the time, have actually helped be the downfall of her dreams.

• She thought that Margaery was the younger, more beautiful queen who would take her crown. Her resistance to this ultimately cost her a valuable ally and made her a powerful enemy in Highgarden. Remember that it was her who empowered the High Sparrow as a means of taking Margaery off the board. She didn't need to do any of that, it was a totally rash move to avoid the prophecy (keep in mind that the season that ended in her walk of atonement began with us learning about said prophecy). And it ultimately handed Dany a powerful ally who, as established in the last episode, isn't even supporting Dany out of love but purely to get back at Cersei! Her actions strengthened the prophecy!
  
• Joffrey was murdered because of his madness, which the books at several stages allude to being the result of being inbred.
  
• The Mountain killed Oberyn at her behest, which directly led to Myrcella's murder. That's a perfect example of a move that seems smart at the time but totally backfires! Again, totally unnecessary and emotionally-driven. She had no evidence it was Tyrion (sure it wasn't) but wanted vengeance as well as now having an excuse to get Tyrion.
  
• Again, the destruction of her enemies at the sept seemed like the right move, and it did have material gain. But it directly led to the suicide of her son and cost her the one thing that actually mattered to her in life. She was no longer a mother as a result. She may have even saved Tommen's life by keeping him under watch from The Mountain, but she pulled him away to seek emotionally-driven revenge on the septa.
  
• Now let's look at volanqar, the last piece of the prophecy: sure, enlisting the help of Euron now might seem like the right move. But it comes at a price. He's clearly stated that he wants to marry her in exchange for his services, he's not doing this for free! Are her actions now directly going to lead to Jaime turning on her and fulfilling the prophecy in its entirety? It seems shrewd, but this is the emotional move: she's acting out of desperation because she wants the crown and it'll likely cost her her life. If she was being smart and rational, she could realise it's a lost cause, seek terms of surrender and hand the crown over to Dany while bending the knee, but likely keep her life in the process and live out her days with Jaime in Casterly Rock in exchange. That's not Cersei though, she's driven by greed and ego now, so she'll follow this path until it ultimately costs her everything.

CMOTDibbler

leggo wrote: »

You're at the crux of what makes Cersei a great character. All of her moves, at the time, seem like they're the right play. But take a step back and look at her primary driving forces. What do we know Cersei has wanted all of her life? To be the queen, to be a good mother and to avoid the prophecy. And yet all of her actions, while seeming the right move at the time, have actually helped be the downfall of her dreams.

Fair play for the extensive reply. Really good post. I'll reply in the guise of devil's advocate because I would largely agree with you.

leggo wrote: »

She thought that Margaery was the younger, more beautiful queen who would take her crown. Her resistance to this ultimately cost her a valuable ally and made her a powerful enemy in Highgarden. Remember that it was her who empowered the High Sparrow as a means of taking Margaery off the board. She didn't need to do any of that, it was a totally rash move to avoid the prophecy (keep in mind that the season that ended in her walk of atonement began with us learning about said prophecy). And it ultimately handed Dany a powerful ally who, as established in the last episode, isn't even supporting Dany out of love but purely to get back at Cersei! Her actions strengthened the prophecy!

It was the obvious conclusion though. At that stage, Dany was a nobody in exile and Margaery was winning hearts and minds everywhere. And Margaery was playing the game as well and quite openly. So she was a definite threat with beauty, power and influence and the desire to use them to gain advantage over Cersei.

leggo wrote: »

Joffrey was murdered because of his madness, which the books at several stages allude to being the result of being inbred.

Myrcella and Tommen were fine though. Two out of three ain't bad.

leggo wrote: »

The Mountain killed Oberyn at her behest, which directly led to Myrcella's murder. That's a perfect example of a move that seems smart at the time but totally backfires! Again, totally unnecessary and emotionally-driven. She had no evidence it was Tyrion (sure it wasn't) but wanted vengeance as well as now having an excuse to get Tyrion.

Tyrion was her enemy though. He worked against her and Joffrey and thwarted her a nummber of times as hand of the king. There are unintended consequences to everything. Such as Jon being stabbed to death for bringing the wildlings south of the wall.

leggo wrote: »

Again, the destruction of her enemies at the sept seemed like the right move, and it did have material gain. But it directly led to the suicide of her son and cost her the one thing that actually mattered to her in life. She was no longer a mother as a result. She may have even saved Tommen's life by keeping him under watch from The Mountain, but she pulled him away to seek emotionally-driven revenge on the septa.

You won't stop a suicide who's determined. She had no inkling that he was so dependant on Margaery and the High Sparrow. Again, not something that could have been easily predicted and another unintended consequence.

leggo wrote: »

Now let's look at volanqar, the last piece of the prophecy: sure, enlisting the help of Euron now might seem like the right move. But it comes at a price. He's clearly stated that he wants to marry her in exchange for his services, he's not doing this for free! Are her actions now directly going to lead to Jaime turning on her and fulfilling the prophecy in its entirety? It seems shrewd, but this is the emotional move: she's acting out of desperation because she wants the crown and it'll likely cost her her life. If she was being smart and rational, she could realise it's a lost cause, seek terms of surrender and hand the crown over to Dany while bending the knee, but likely keep her life in the process and live out her days with Jaime in Casterly Rock in exchange. That's not Cersei though, she's driven by greed and ego now, so she'll follow this path until it ultimately costs her everything.

Or she could just string Euron along until she gets what she wants. There are many different outcomes to that decision and she has the control right now. She has Euron on a string and can keep him there as long as she wants. At this stage, he's only provided evidence of his sincerity. He has yet to be even accepted as an ally never mind a consort. And Jaime has stood by while she had other consorts and lovers.

leggo

And, likewise, I don't disagree with what you're saying. I just think that, when one of those unforeseen circumstances happen, it's a tragedy. When they all happen, it's a pattern. Her decisions, in the moment, seem like the only decisions to make. But then you step back and realise what's driving them: emotion, hate, greed, ego, vengeance.

For example: she didn't need to be adversarial with Margaery. If she'd have accepted the situation as it was and consolidated power (in doing so giving some up to Highgarden - which Tywin himself saw and accepted as a natural consequence), she'd have likely prospered. This is particular clear in the books when you get inside her brain and see how much of a threat Cersei sees from Highgarden, it's totally unnecessary! Why make an enemy and conspire against Margaery? Why try send Loras to his demise when you can keep Tommen happy as his squire? She's trying to avoid the prophecy, but if she'd have just calmed the jets, a settled kingdom ruled by the collective might of the Lannisters and Highgarden, with even the common people likely behind them out of love for Margaery and Tommen, would've been way too much for Dany to overcome. The common folk fear Targaeryan's after the Mad King. Dany's quest seems easy on the show, but what she's trying to achieve is actually next to impossible, and Cersei has made it relatively easy for her with her blunders.

Instead, she does conspire against Highgarden, she seeks the help of the Faith, she tries to have Tyrion killed rashly and, in doing so, she essentially writes her own headstone. None of it had to be this way. You look at seasoned players like Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger and Varys, and they're all playing on a different level to Cersei despite their circumstances because they're letting logic, not emotion, rule their decision-making. Her decisions make sense at the time but not in hindsight. Their decisions (like Littlefinger having Joffrey killed) seem to make little sense at the time, but then you see how they blossom and make perfect sense in hindsight. That's how you plot and scheme, one step ahead of the game. Cersei is a step behind and always realises it when it's too late, yet she can't stop being herself and persists.

And I have zero doubt that this latest ploy will backfire in exactly the way she's looking to avoid because that's what happens to Cersei. It's all there in front of us, in front of her too, and all we can do is stand in horror and watch.

podgemonster

mewso wrote: »

Perfectly in keeping with many of the recent story lines.

Expand, what storylines didn't make sense to you.

CMOTDibbler

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yeah. I think Ellaria will be left alive though, to keep Dorne in line. As long as she's alive, there's unlikely to be someone else to take over and renew hostilities with Kings Landing. And Cersei can't afford to have a presence in Dorne to keep them in line. So Ellaria is a hostage to keep the Dornish army out of the picture.

Tyene, not so much.

Well that was spot on anyway. :cool:

leggo

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Well that was spot on anyway. :cool:

That's not why Cersei kept her alive, she was clear she wanted her to watch Tyene die. We'll likely never see or hear from her again. And what Cersei would do, if she wins, is give Dorne to one of her allies.