Toddler stabbed to death in Dublin

Assetbacked

Downplaying the relevance of mental illness to what happened in this case would be a crime (if it turns out there were factors in play). This is not to chastise or deflect or anything like that but rather to highlight that people may be suffering from mental illness and they or those around them may not even be aware. As such, unless people are open to discussing their problems and reaching out for help then sometimes terrible tragedies can happen which may have been avoided.

Obviously in this case we are not yet sure of the circumstances but calling it a "personal tragedy" instead of cold-blooded murder by an evil mother (as it appears to be) is already starting to hint at downplaying the influence of any mental health issues.

tritium

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We need to look at any factors in these cases that may point towards cause or indicators of risk.

We need a serious conversation about the State's responsibilities towards the children of people with mental health issues.

Genuinely, 'support' for such individuals should be a secondary concern. Of course, it may not be possible to identify at-risk cases before the fact, but I'm convinced that our current routine of diagnosing the parent/killer afterwards and closing the case as an unavoidable tragedy is a serious dereliction of duty.

I partially agree with your last point. The post event mental illness defence is often too little to late. However that doesnt mean we shouldnt try to catch these cases before they turn into such an awful outcome. It seems, albeit unempirically, remarkably common that some major, possibly traumatic event precedes such crimes

The worrying thing highlighted in one of the links i posted is how many cases there are where the perpetrator had no history of interaction with mental health services prior to the killing. That implies that some people who needed help werent aware of this or slipped through the cracks- thats something we can look at, and a case where 'support' adds real value so i dont think it can be considered secondary.

There are of course cases where mental health is just used to justify pure evil, but given how unnatural this crime seems that doesnt sit well with me as a catch all regardless of the perpetrator. Given that im inclined to try to prevent rather than gnash and wail after the event

seamus

"Personal tragedy" is a catch-all term used very frequently because they cannot state it was a murder or manslaughter. They don't even use the word suicide anymore.

These are all legal terms, so if you use them early you are pre-empting any investigation.

"Personal tragedy" is not a legal term but appropriately captures the scope of what has occurred while also being a code word for "murder-suicide".

Mutant z

The scum who are responsible for this toddlers brutal murder, should spend the rest of their life behind bars.

Kidchameleon

I wonder how many of the pitch fork gang who were foaming at the mouth with delight at Alan Hawe's reburial will be happy to see the mother and baby in this tragic case buried seperatly.

Ann_Landers

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I wonder how many of the pitch fork gang who were foaming at the mouth with delight at Alan Hawe's reburial will be happy to see the mother and baby in this tragic case buried seperatly.

It's funny, I picture you foaming at the mouth whilst mashing the keyboard in writing the above effluent.

Outlaw Pete

Woman was/is a doctor at a Dublin hospital apparently.

January

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I wonder how many of the pitch fork gang who were foaming at the mouth with delight at Alan Hawe's reburial will be happy to see the mother and baby in this tragic case buried seperatly.

Well the mother isn't dead...

Alan Hawe wasn't reburied either btw, his remains were transported to Glasnevin where he was cremated.

murpho999

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Parents who murder their children should get the heaviest sentences

Law should not differentiate on this.

Clearly in this case, the person had severe mental health issues and is mostly likely looking at a very long time in a psychiatric facility.

Ann_Landers

murpho999 wrote: »

Law should not differentiate on this.

Clearly in this case, the person had severe mental health issues and is mostly likely looking at a very long time in a psychiatric facility.

Speculation, really. We don't know if she has mental problems yet.

volchitsa

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I wonder how many of the pitch fork gang who were foaming at the mouth with delight at Alan Hawe's reburial will be happy to see the mother and baby in this tragic case buried seperatly.

This is a disgusting post.

Ann_Landers

volchitsa wrote: »

This is a disgusting post.

I know, it's just a mentality I can't understand. I never want to meet with that mentality in real life, I wouldn't be able to conceal my comtempt. You'd have to wonder if the poster even believes what they write?

kylith

murpho999 wrote: »

Law should not differentiate on this.

Clearly in this case, the person had severe mental health issues and is mostly likely looking at a very long time in a psychiatric facility.

I agree.

Obviously I know no more than anyone else but mental health issues, and possibly post-partum depression/psychosis may play a role here.

Anita Blow

kylith wrote: »

I agree.

Obviously I know no more than anyone else but mental health issues, and possibly post-partum depression/psychosis may play a role here.

Child was 3 so would be too long after the birth to be postpartum psychosis or depression

jackboy

seamus wrote: »

"Personal tragedy" is a catch-all term used very frequently because they cannot state it was a murder or manslaughter. They don't even use the word suicide anymore.

These are all legal terms, so if you use them early you are pre-empting any investigation.

"Personal tragedy" is not a legal term but appropriately captures the scope of what has occurred while also being a code word for "murder-suicide".

I wonder is that the real reason. They could use the word 'killing'. I think 'personal tragedy' is used to imply that the killer is not at fault. It is cowardly language to use in my opinion....and very Irish.

kylith

Anita Blow wrote: »

Child was 3 so would be too long after the birth to be postpartum psychosis or depression

No so. It can take 12 months to recover from (https://www.nct.org.uk/parenting/what-postpartum-psychosis) and around 50% will go on to have another episode, not necessarily after having another child (http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/postpartum-psychosis/Pages/Introduction.aspx#outlook).

As you can see from this graph of a Swedish study (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis#/media/File:Figure_1._Incidence_of_Psychoses_among_Swedish_First-Time_Mothers.png) incidences of psychosis after 18 months are rare, but do occur.

Muir

Anita Blow wrote: »

Child was 3 so would be too long after the birth to be postpartum psychosis or depression

A review from 2014 found that in those not receiving treatment, 30% of people who experience postpartum depression were still depressed up to 3 years after giving birth. Source.

Klonker

Klonker wrote: »

Yeah, let's make this a gender thing :rolleyes: have some cop on for **** sake.

sugarman wrote: »

Valid point in fairness and it is a discussion forum.

You're right, it's a discussion forum; which means we are free to reject such statements and discuss how idiotic they are.

It's a bit like how freedom of expression necessitates, and does not shield a person, from robust critique.

murpho999

Ann_Landers wrote: »

Speculation, really. We don't know if she has mental problems yet.

I don't think it's speculation to say that a person who kills their own child has mental health issues.

Ann_Landers

jackboy wrote: »

I wonder is that the real reason. They could use the word 'killing'. I think 'personal tragedy' is used to imply that the killer is not at fault. It is cowardly language to use in my opinion....and very Irish.

+1, 'killing' is a good, accurate description.

Ann_Landers

murpho999 wrote: »

I don't think it's speculation to say that a person who kills their own child has mental health issues.

It didn't appear to be the case with Alan Hawes. Unless being controlling is one?

Ann_Landers

Ann_Landers wrote: »

It didn't appear to be the case with Alan Hawes. Unless being controlling is one?

Alan Hawe probably did have a mental disorder. But a mental disorder is different to a mental illness.

You can't claim innocence by reason of insanity for the purposes of a mental disorder (e.g. sociopathy), but it is a valid claim in respect of mental illness (e.g. psychosis)

kylith

Ann_Landers wrote: »

It didn't appear to be the case with Alan Hawes. Unless being controlling is one?

IIRC some were claiming that Alan Hawes had a psychotic break, which there was no evidence of. I'm pretty sure that it was agreed by most that he had mental health issues in the form of narcissistic and controlling tendencies.

jackboy

kylith wrote: »

IIRC some were claiming that Alan Hawes had a psychotic break, which there was no evidence of. I'm pretty sure that it was agreed by most that he had mental health issues in the form of narcissistic and controlling tendencies.

These are not mental health issues though, they are personality characteristics.

kylith

jackboy wrote: »

These are not mental health issues though, they are personality characteristics.

As Militades said: they are mental disorders, but not mental illnesses.

jackboy

jackboy wrote: »

These are not mental health issues though, they are personality characteristics.

They're mental health issues, and disorders.

Sociopathy (anti social personality disorder) is listed in DSM-IV, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which is used worldwide.

But they aren't illnesses, either legally or medically.

You can't be detained in a psychiatric institution because you have these mental disorders; that only happens if you have a mental illness (e.g. psychosis). Nor can you claim insanity because you're a sociopath.

Omackeral

Ann_Landers wrote: »

I saw your subsequent posts, they didn't help your case. You used a very fresh, tragic news story to bring in a gender slant. This is what you did. Stop acting like a victim and own it, at the very least.

First thing first, I'm not on trial so I have no case to make or break. Secondly, nope didn't use a fresh tragedy, I commented on a current event which the bloody thread was about... as that's what threads are for. I offered an opinion which some people seemingly agreed with. Honestly it's not all that hard a concept to grasp. Finally, who the fcuk are you to tell me what to do, why should I 'own' anything just because you want me to.

Sunflower 27

Ann_Landers wrote: »

Omackeral wrote: »

I despair that some people don't have simple comprehension skills. I've explained myself at least three times on this matter.

I saw your subsequent posts, they didn't help your case. You used a very fresh, tragic news story to bring in a gender slant. This is what you did. Stop acting like a victim and own it, at the very least.

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Sorry, we can only offer condolences now can we? Oh please, this is a discussion forum.

You go, girlfrien'! *snaps fingers* So much sass!

Sass? Nope. Just just stating a point. Snaps finger! ? You are the one demonstrating sass, quite clearly.

freshpopcorn

The Dail Mirror have released a picture of the mother!


http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/first-picture-mum-tragic-dublin-10777741

Ann_Landers

Omackeral wrote: »

First thing first, I'm not on trial so I have no case to make or break. Secondly, nope didn't use a fresh tragedy, I commented on a current event which the bloody thread was about... as that's what threads are for. I offered an opinion which some people seemingly agreed with. Honestly it's not all that hard a concept to grasp. Finally, who the fcuk are you to tell me what to do, why should I 'own' anything just because you want me to.

You acted very defensively towards people criticising your post. As someone else, yes it's a discussion and that discussion can involve criticism of the things people post. If you post something, you might have to defend it.

You don't have to own your post but it looks better if you do instead of whinging about people criticising it as they are free to do.

Ken.

Mod- A dead 3 year old and a bunch of people in here acting about that age. Knock it the hell off or bans will come swift and fast.

Assetbacked

A father is without his child and the mother of his child so needlessly, it's awful.

Hellywelly

tritium wrote: »

I think while commendable your point doesn't go far enough. In many cases of child murder by either parent there seems to be something else going on- this isnt simply a crime of revenge or cruelty in many cases as far as i can tell. Whether its long term mental illness or shorter term issues brought on by some change in circumstances we should probably be looking at how to provide support to prevent this happening, including more open conversations about mental health and coping for both men and women.

One of the saddest points in the articles i linked is that many of the perpetrators felt it was done for the childrens own good, and thats not a natural mindset.

My heart breaks for this woman if - as it apoears at the moment - she intended this to be a murder/suicide and if thats the case she may have felt that this was "best" for her son, hard as that is to comprehend. I've been in that position myself and its a very very real feeling when its going on. I'm a lone parent of one adored child, working fulltime in a good job and suffer from savage depression at times. At one of my lowest points a couple of years ago suicide seemed quite a sensible option. Literally. My worry at the time was that my darling child would be left so bereft and damaged if I did that, that taking him with me would be the lesser of two evils for him.

I'm lucky now to be able to look back on that horrific time and know how bizarre it is to have even thought those things. I was offered help in the form of hospitalisation which sounded wonderful (a rest, peace etc..) but the options for my child had I taken that help was to be put in foster care, which I could not have coped with. It seems to me that perhaps there is a need for a more 'family' oriented mental health care in these situations ( it would have been brilluant had it been there for me).

If something like this is whats happened in this awful case then I guarantee that the fact that the mum is still alive and will be living without her son each day (and with the knowledge that she caused his death) is the worst punishment imaginable and I can only hope she finds some peace.

Muir

Hellywelly wrote: »

My heart breaks for this woman if - as it apoears at the moment - she intended this to be a murder/suicide and if thats the case she may have felt that this was "best" for her son, hard as that is to comprehend. I've been in that position myself and its a very very real feeling when its going on. I'm a lone parent of one adored child, working fulltime in a good job and suffer from savage depression at times. At one of my lowest points a couple of years ago suicide seemed quite a sensible option. Literally. My worry at the time was that my darling child would be left so bereft and damaged if I did that, that taking him with me would be the lesser of two evils for him.

I'm lucky now to be able to look back on that horrific time and know how bizarre it is to have even thought those things. I was offered help in the form of hospitalisation which sounded wonderful (a rest, peace etc..) but the options for my child had I taken that help was to be put in foster care, which I could not have coped with. It seems to me that perhaps there is a need for a more 'family' oriented mental health care in these situations ( it would have been brilluant had it been there for me).

If something like this is whats happened in this awful case then I guarantee that the fact that the mum is still alive and will be living without her son each day (and with the knowledge that she caused his death) is the worst punishment imaginable and I can only hope she finds some peace.

Just wanted to say fair play to you for being so open about your own experiences, and I hope other posters are respectful. As you said yourself if can be very hard for other people to comprehend, especially if they haven't had any mental health struggles themselves or seen someone close to them struggle. I'm glad you're doing better now.

The_Kew_Tour

If she did do it why are people feeling sorry for her, but called out a man from Cavan who killed himself and his family.

Why do rules differ?

Murder is Murder be it man or woman

The_Kew_Tour

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Why do rules differ?

Murder is Murder be it man or woman

Because illnesses differ.

You might as well ask, how is schizophrenia different to the common cold?

It is an eminently stupid question.

Hannibal_Smith

Nabber wrote: »

Model reads private messages about her being fat. It get 224 replies on boards.

Toddler stabbed to death, gets 78 replies.

Both posted around the same time. Boards going to ****s

Are you using the death of a toddler to point score and evaluate the decency of an Internet forum?

No one knows what happened. Certainly there was very little information yesterday. What was there to discuss?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Hacking a three year old to death does not get my compassion understanding or sympathy. What an evil, barbaric sadistic thing to inflict on anyone but a three year old child? I personally couldn't give a toss about his/her mental health. It's absolutely no different to Alan Hawe in Cavan. A child murderer is even deeper in the pool of scum than a regular murderer. I hope he/she's tortured for every day they're alive.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Alan Hawe probably did have a mental disorder. But a mental disorder is different to a mental illness.

You can't claim innocence by reason of insanity for the purposes of a mental disorder (e.g. sociopathy), but it is a valid claim in respect of mental illness (e.g. psychosis)

And you've met both murderers and assessed them to ascertain between plain evil and mental illness to decide why each of them might choose to end their children's lives in an incredibly violent manner?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Ann_Landers wrote: »

I know, it's just a mentality I can't understand. I never want to meet with that mentality in real life, I wouldn't be able to conceal my comtempt. You'd have to wonder if the poster even believes what they write?

I'd personally rather meet the op of that post than someone who'd take a knife to a three year old. That's just me though, I'd be odd like that.

Kidchameleon

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

If she did do it why are people feeling sorry for her, but called out a man from Cavan who killed himself and his family.

Why do rules differ?

Murder is Murder be it man or woman

100% agree. The way this monster is being treated here and in the media is discusting. Its so sad to see the hypocracy compared to the Hawe case. I think thats what has this thread derailed. Perhaps a seperate thread would be the best place.

The_Kew_Tour

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Because illnesses differ.

You might as well ask, how is schizophrenia different to the common cold?

It is an eminently stupid question.

Hmmmm illness. This goes around a lot when old people or vulnerable people are attacked or killed.

Ah the poor fella was on drugs. Schizophrenia is another excuse. Make no mistake had it been a male we be calling him out much more and proof is on boards.

Muir

We don't know what happened here yet, or the circumstances that lead to it. I live so close to the apartments where this happened that I walk by them daily, and I personally know 3 people who live within 5 minutes of them who suffer from a mental illness that causes psychosis.

I'll just say, for anyone here who doesn't understand or think that mental health shouldn't make a difference. Have you ever known anyone suffering from psychosis? The person you know, someone who might be the kindest, gentlest most caring person you have ever met, can be replaced by someone who is angry, aggressive and paranoid. The can genuinely believe things that to any rational person would sound bonkers. They might think they are talking to angels, or the aliens are coming to get them or any number of other delusional beliefs - but to them those beliefs are entirely real. The parent of a child could believe that something terrible will happen to that child if they don't kill them.

And yes, it's hard to understand or imagine yourself in that position, and it's absolutely awful to see such a terrible thing happen. The only way to ever stop these things happening though, is to have better understanding of these issues, and to provide people with the help they need to get well. The current services are awful. I really hope those of you who don't understand never have to.

Again, we don't know the full story here yet - but it's something I hope people will consider when making judgements on any case like this, male or female, or when dealing with mental health in any other discussion or in real life.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

You're right, the only thing we can be sure of is there's a 3 year old who met a violent and scary end to an incredibly short life, at the hands of someone else. If I'm murdered in the morning by someone "not well" that won't make me feel better than if it was someone else. The child was killed and his life was sacrificed because of the actions of another person. We don't need to know much more than that, IMO

wdmfapq4zs83hv

Awful tragedy RIP little one. My initial thought was father/ husband responsible & would turn up dead by suicide. When it became clear mother responsible my thought was psychotic episode. If she was depressed & felt child was better off dead with her, she most likely would have smothered him or something less horrific. To stab a 3 year old to death screams psychotic episode to me.

kylith

Kidchameleon wrote: »

100% agree. The way this monster is being treated here and in the media is discusting. Its so sad to see the hypocracy compared to the Hawe case. I think thats what has this thread derailed. Perhaps a seperate thread would be the best place.

Hawe got plenty of sympathy until it was realised that he was compos mentis when he killed his family.

Why not withhold judgement until we find out exactly what happened with this case?

darkdubh

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Are you using the death of a toddler to point score and evaluate the decency of an Internet forum?

No one knows what happened. Certainly there was very little information yesterday. What was there to discuss?

I would have thought it was pretty bleedin obvious what happened.

optogirl

Kidchameleon wrote: »

100% agree. The way this monster is being treated here and in the media is discusting. Its so sad to see the hypocracy compared to the Hawe case. I think thats what has this thread derailed. Perhaps a seperate thread would be the best place.

but at least we are not getting the 'popular member of the community' , 'well respected in the town' shi*te that usually comes along with it

scopper

Very sad, also feel terrible for the Guards and medical people who arrived on scene. Can't imagine how they will be feeling.

fatknacker

Jesus, you're all ****ing nuts. The bang of self-righteousness in this place is unreal.