Toddler stabbed to death in Dublin

Game Face MCGee

Candie wrote: »

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Personally, I am pre-judging this case. Now obviously the person who has been arrested is innocent until proven guilty. However. The individual who attacked that child with a knife is a 100% irredeemable evil scumbag. All that needs to be proven in my view is who actually did it, and innocent until proven guilty should of course apply - but in cases like this, as far as I'm concerned, the only relevant factor should be determining who's hand was holding the knife at the time and whether they were under immediate physical duress (IE, was somebody literally pointing a gun or other knife at them under threat of instant death if they didn't follow orders) - if the answer to that question is a no, then the person who was holding the knife should go to jail until their dying breath, no ifs, no buts.

No level of psychiatric difficulty can justify taking the life of an innocent third party. None.

Rubbish. For a start no one is saying it's justifying it, only perhaps explaining it. An important distinction.

Wasn't a guy found not guilty of murder by reason of insanity recently in Ireland? He was found not guilty because he was so seriously ill that he couldn't be held accountable for his actions, and he was rightly given the treatment and care he needed. There is no way someone so very sick can be dismissed as just evil and packed off to prison without the proper care.

I've no idea if this is a similar situation or if the person who did that terrible thing is just plain evil, but if they're so sick that they're not responsible for their actions and their doctor advises the court that this is the case, I'm not going to decide I know better and demand they're branded evil and sent to prison instead of hospital.

I don't believe in branding sick people scumbags and satisfying some lust for revenge by treating them the same as someone who commits some horrific act in full possession of their senses and in full knowledge of the import of their actions.

I'm not saying throw away the key, they defo should get treated if they have a mental illness but when they are well again they shouldn't just be let out, they should be told "now you were mental but u killed someone, you have to serve another X amount of years now your well again"

volchitsa

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

I'm not saying throw away the key, they defo should get treated if they have a mental illness but when they are well again they shouldn't just be let out, they should be told "now you were mental but u killed someone, you have to serve another X amount of years now your well again"

I don't actually know what happens when someone is committed rather than being imprisoned (no such thing as maximum terms etc, so I'd imagine they could well spend the rest of their lives in a secure unit).

But assuming you're right and that some people may spend only a matter of months and then come out "cured", I think that's wrong. There's no reason why the killing shouldn't be classified as homicide (or Irish equivalent) - not murder, but someone was killed.

So if the person was "cured" quickly they could then do the remainder of the jail time for the killing.

Personally if I had killed my child while mentally unwell, I don't think my first concern on recovering my senses would be to ensure that I didn't do any jail time for the killing. I think I'd be glad to do so. A conviction of murder wouldn't be right IMO because the person didn't intend to kill the child, but there would be a legal recognition of the child's violent death.

Muir

The woman arrested yesterday (who other sources have said is the mother) has been charged. Source.

JupiterKid

Reading through this thread it saddens but doesn't surprise me how many spiteful, judgemental, reactionary and ignorant posters there are here.

Omackeral

JupiterKid wrote: »

Reading through this thread it saddens but doesn't surprise me how many spiteful, judgemental, reactionary and ignorant posters there are here.

When a child dies at the hands of their parents, it's quite normal to be instantly disgusted, shocked and outraged. Same way as if a wife dies at the hands of her husband or vice versa. When you hear that a toddler is viciously and violently stabbed to death, that's definitely a pretty normal reaction to have. If other mitigating factors come out, then so be it but until that time, it's very normal to have a disgusted initial reaction.

Minderbinder

So since she has been charged with murder does that mean she's not a psycho? Would the police have done psychological evaluations themselves? Or do these tests occur after the charge?

Stheno

Minderbinder wrote: »

So since she has been charged with murder does that mean she's not a psycho? Would the police have done psychological evaluations themselves? Or do these tests occur after the charge?

She can plead not guilty by reason of mental illness

jackboy

Obviously, severe mental illness could be a factor here. However, there are thousands of children and partners being abused all over Ireland. Are all the perpetrators suffering from mental illness. No, only a minority. It's not a big step for abuse to lead to a killing.

We can't ignore the fact that there are a large group of people out there that just have that personality type. Nothing to do with mental illness.

Hector Savage

RTE news reporting that a woman has been charged with the murder.
No mention that it's the mother though.
Is someone else involved ?

Riskymove

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

I'm not saying throw away the key, they defo should get treated if they have a mental illness but when they are well again they shouldn't just be let out, they should be told "now you were mental but u killed someone, you have to serve another X amount of years now your well again"

it can't be both really

if the justice system decides the person only committed the crime due to the mental illness and then they are deemed to be no longer mentally ill, there is no reason to then confine them as "punishment" - there is no threat viewed

they are treated rather than punished as they are deemed ill

Omackeral

From DublinLive

A Garda spokesman said: "A woman in her early 40s who was arrested in relation to the homicide of an infant child that occurred on Monday evening 10th July, 2017 will appear before Criminal Courts of Justice, Court Number 3, this morning Thursday 13th July, at 10.30am."

That's happening right now as we speak. I'd imagine that's gonna be a difficult setting for all involved.

Muir

Think of it this way - if someone has a heart attack at the wheel of a car which results in them causing a car accident that kills someone, should they be sent to prison? If your answer to that is no, then similarly you should not believe in sending someone suffering from a mental disorder to prison.

We still don't know what happened here. For anyone asking, it was the woman arrested yesterday who was charged and a few places reported that to be the mother. The gardai also weren't looking for anyone else in relation to it, just waiting to speak to the mother. There are links earlier in the thread.

Neyite

Hector Savage wrote: »

RTE news reporting that a woman has been charged with the murder.
No mention that it's the mother though.
Is someone else involved ?

If the age range matches, then it's usually a reporters way of telling you who was arrested without naming them if they are not allowed to at that stage.

In this case, they reported that the mother was in her forties. Then they reported that Gardai were waiting to speak to her after her surgery. Then they've reported that Gardai arrested a woman in her forties. It's likely the mother.

volchitsa

jackboy wrote: »

Obviously, severe mental illness could be a factor here. However, there are thousands of children and partners being abused all over Ireland. Are all the perpetrators suffering from mental illness. No, only a minority. It's not a big step for abuse to lead to a killing.

We can't ignore the fact that there are a large group of people out there that just have that personality type. Nothing to do with mental illness.

Abuse doesn't just start with stabbing a child to death though. Either there are previous warning signs (which may only be clear in hindsight, but will still be there) or it was a single horrific incident, and in that case mental breakdown becomes a possible explanation.

What I don't agree with is the assumption that some posters seem to make that by definition anyone who kills their child has had a mental breakdown. As you say, we know that children are sometimes abused and maltreated for years, leading in some cases to their death. It would be equally mistaken to treat all violent child deaths as being just one of those two. It depends on what the evidence shows.

Omackeral

Muir wrote: »

Think of it this way - if someone has a heart attack at the wheel of a car which results in them causing a car accident that kills someone, should they be sent to prison? If your answer to that is no, then similarly you should not believe in sending someone suffering from a mental disorder to prison.

By the same token, if someone is capable of carrying out a frenzied stabbing attack on a defenseless child, they shouldn't really be free to roam around. Are we just assuming a psychotic episode here by the way? Is there anything to suggest it? Say for example if the perpetrator was suicidal and decided to take the child with them through some sort of self appointed mercy killing but then couldn't go through with the initial plan, would that garner outrage or sympathy or both?

Yourself isit

JupiterKid wrote: »

Reading through this thread it saddens but doesn't surprise me how many spiteful, judgemental, reactionary and ignorant posters there are here.

I just love generalised ad Homs.

Hector Savage

Neyite wrote: »

If the age range matches, then it's usually a reporters way of telling you who was arrested without naming them if they are not allowed to at that stage.

In this case, they reported that the mother was in her forties. Then they reported that Gardai were waiting to speak to her after her surgery. Then they've reported that Gardai arrested a woman in her forties. It's likely the mother.

Tragic.
I know this sounds terrible, but I really feel for her, she has to live with that for the rest of her life.

volchitsa

Muir wrote: »

Think of it this way - if someone has a heart attack at the wheel of a car which results in them causing a car accident that kills someone, should they be sent to prison? If your answer to that is no, then similarly you should not believe in sending someone suffering from a mental disorder to prison.

We still don't know what happened here. For anyone asking, it was the woman arrested yesterday who was charged and a few places reported that to be the mother. The gardai also weren't looking for anyone else in relation to it, just waiting to speak to the mother. There are links earlier in the thread.

That depends, though. The Scottish bin lorry driver who killed people one Christmas there was found guilty of ignoring and even hiding that he had been suffering from blackouts. He has a large degree of responsibility.

OTOH, some people with mental illness have begged for help and been refused it. If they then went on to kill, I'd be inclined to at least consider possible responsibility of mental health services in those cases.

Omackeral

Hector Savage wrote: »

Tragic.
I know this sounds terrible, but I really feel for her, she has to live with that for the rest of her life.

So does anyone who's ever killed a child, be it from accidentally hitting a kid while driving in your car or violent stabbing one to death.

Grayson

Neyite wrote: »

If the age range matches, then it's usually a reporters way of telling you who was arrested without naming them if they are not allowed to at that stage.

In this case, they reported that the mother was in her forties. Then they reported that Gardai were waiting to speak to her after her surgery. Then they've reported that Gardai arrested a woman in her forties. It's likely the mother.

The thing is though that the mirror and the sun named the mother yesterday but the IT and Indo didn't. So it can't be the law that's preventing the IT. maybe the mirror saw her being led from the hospital? But in that case they'd have reported that. Maybe they are just working on the same assumptions as you? Or maybe the IT and Indo have different standards.

It's weird either way.

Yourself isit

Muir wrote: »

Think of it this way - if someone has a heart attack at the wheel of a car which results in them causing a car accident that kills someone, should they be sent to prison? If your answer to that is no, then similarly you should not believe in sending someone suffering from a mental disorder to prison.

We still don't know what happened here. For anyone asking, it was the woman arrested yesterday who was charged and a few places reported that to be the mother. The gardai also weren't looking for anyone else in relation to it, just waiting to speak to the mother. There are links earlier in the thread.

The vast majority of human mental problems aren't physically caused or obvious Tumours are one counter example.

It's a problem of the brain/mind. If the continuing medicalization of human condition continues then all child killings might be deemed caused by a mental illness.

Pedophillia is a mental illness for sure but I don't think if a multiple rapist were released a few weeks after sentencing, being cured ( chemical castration or a pill) that the public would be satisfied.

So I tend to believe that the punishment should bE given even if the court sees it as a mental illness problem.

Muir

Omackeral wrote: »

By the same token, if someone is capable of carrying out a frenzied stabbing attack on a defenseless child, they shouldn't really be free to roam around. Are we just assuming a psychotic episode here by the way? Is there anything to suggest it? Say for example if the perpetrator was suicidal and decided to take the child with them through some sort of self appointed mercy killing, would that garner outrage or sympathy or both?

No, I have said multiple times earlier in the thread, we don't know what happened yet. I'm responding to the comments being made about mental illness. We don't always know what someone is capable of before it happens unfortunately, the majority of people who have mental health disorders will never harm anyone. By that same token, should anyone who has any possibility of ever having a heart attack (which is everyone really) be allowed to drive? For that matter, any single one of us could experience psychosis, should we all be locked up just in case?

Ideally, anyone having these problems will get the correct treatment and be able to live a normal life. For some treatment doesn't work, others don't get to the attention of psychiatric services before something tragic happens. All we can do is try to understand these problems better, and work towards having better help and support available for people, with early intervention, in the hopes that no one ever harms themselves or anyone else.

If someone was suicidal and for example only managed to kill another person and didn't succeed in killing themselves, they wouldn't be able to plead insanity on the grounds of being suicidal, they would be treated as a criminal. I would personally still hope they received help also, but they would serve prison time.

Grayson

Omackeral wrote: »

So does anyone who's ever killed a child, be it from a car accident or a violent stabbing.

I heard about a mother who killed her child during a psychotic break. She thought she was saving the child. She thought if she didn't kill him that demons would take him.

She loved her child. She actually thought she was protecting them. After a lot of treatment she realised what she had done. At which point she had another break because she couldn't handle the fact that she'd killed her own child.

There are some people who would describe that woman as evil. She wasn't. Her mind wasn't rational. She was in a mental place which is completely alien to both her and us. It's like sleepwalking and doing something bad whilst asleep.

Muir

volchitsa wrote: »

That depends, though. The Scottish bin lorry driver who killed people one Christmas there was found guilty of ignoring and even hiding that he had been suffering from blackouts. He has a large degree of responsibility.

OTOH, some people with mental illness have begged for help and been refused it. If they then went on to kill, I'd be inclined to at least consider possible responsibility of mental health services in those cases.

That's a fair point, but someone suffering from psychosis often wouldn't understand they are unwell and need treatment - that's why they can be sectioned. If their judgement is so impaired it causes them to kill someone, it was likely too impaired for them to understand they need help.

Minderbinder

I doubt very much this woman was suicidal. She had a knife, already killed someone with it; she is a doctor so knows how and where to inflict the fatal cut (though you wouldn't have to be a doctor to know that).

I think this may have been an act from the heart rather than from the mind.

JMNolan

Did I read the poor child was autistic? I hope that didn't have anything to do with the reason the poor child was murdered.

Omackeral

Grayson wrote: »

I heard about a mother who killed her child during a psychotic break. She thought she was saving the child. She thought if she didn't kill him that demons would take him.

She loved her child. She actually thought she was protecting them. After a lot of treatment she realised what she had done. At which point she had another break because she couldn't handle the fact that she'd killed her own child.

There are some people who would describe that woman as evil. She wasn't. Her mind wasn't rational. She was in a mental place which is completely alien to both her and us. It's like sleepwalking and doing something bad whilst asleep.

I said anyone who's ever killed a child has to live with it for the rest of their lives. The woman in your example would definitely be included in that.

I often think of the poor train drivers hitting people who jump onto the tracks when they're driving along. They'd have to live with their horror even though they were in no way responsible for it. Must be awful. Same for anyone who has ever hit a child that's wandered into traffic.

Muir

Yourself isit wrote: »

The vast majority of human mental problems aren't physically caused or obvious Tumours are one counter example.

It's a problem of the brain/mind. If the continuing medicalization of human condition continues then all child killings might be deemed caused by a mental illness.

Pedophillia is a mental illness for sure but I don't think if a multiple rapist were released a few weeks after sentencing, being cured ( chemical castration or a pill) that the public would be satisfied.

So I tend to believe that the punishment should bE given even if the court sees it as a mental illness problem.

In order for someone to be found not guilty due to reason of insanity, they need to be suffering from a mental illness where their mental function is seriously impaired. That's not just any problem of the brain or mind. We're talking about people who are essentially living in a different reality to you or I. The difference with a paedophile - is that they understand their actions are wrong. Someone suffering from psychosis does not.

Omackeral

"Yes, it was my knife. Yes, it was my hand. It was not me. It was the power".


A doctor has appeared in court charged with murdering her three-year old son at their home in Dublin.
Omar Omran's body was found on Monday evening when gardai called to an apartment at the Riverside complex in Kimmage.

He had been stabbed to death.
His mother, Maha Al-Adheem, was arrested yesterday and charged with his murder in the early hours of this morning.

After she was charged, the court heard she said: "Yes, it was my knife. Yes, it was my hand. It was not me. It was the power".

The 42-year-old has been remanded in custody for a week.


-TodayFM

optogirl

Omackeral wrote: »

"Yes, it was my knife. Yes, it was my hand. It was not me. It was the power".


A doctor has appeared in court charged with murdering her three-year old son at their home in Dublin.
Omar Omran's body was found on Monday evening when gardaere called to an apartment at the Riverside complex in Kimmage.

He had been stabbed to death.
His mother, Maha Al-Adheem, was arrested yesterday and charged with his murder in the early hours of this morning.

After she was charged, the court heard she said: "Yes, it was my knife. Yes, it was my hand. It was not me. It was the power".

The 42-year-old has been remanded in custody for a week.


-TodayFM

Terrifying to think this woman has been working as a doctor around vulnerable people. Obviously she is vulnerable herself if she is under the delusion that a higher power made her commit this act.

Omackeral

optogirl wrote: »

Terrifying to think this woman has been working as a doctor around vulnerable people. Obviously she is vulnerable herself if she is under the delusion that a higher power made her commit this act.

From what I read, she wasn't practicing as a doctor over here but was qualified as one in her native country.

SEPT 23 1989

JMNolan wrote: »

Did I read the poor child was autistic? I hope that didn't have anything to do with the reason the poor child was murdered.

The child was able to cycle his trike around and talk to his neighbours when out playing

very mild by the sounds of it

Neyite

optogirl wrote: »

Terrifying to think this woman has been working as a doctor around vulnerable people. Obviously she is vulnerable herself if she is under the delusion that a higher power made her commit this act.

She wasn't working as a doctor.

She is a qualified doctor in her own country but hasn't sat the relevant exams in Ireland to enable her to work in a doctor's role.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Grayson wrote: »

I heard about a mother who killed her child during a psychotic break. She thought she was saving the child. She thought if she didn't kill him that demons would take him.

She loved her child. She actually thought she was protecting them. After a lot of treatment she realised what she had done. At which point she had another break because she couldn't handle the fact that she'd killed her own child.

There are some people who would describe that woman as evil. She wasn't. Her mind wasn't rational. She was in a mental place which is completely alien to both her and us. It's like sleepwalking and doing something bad whilst asleep.

Well that's alright then. At least she loved him. He might be dead but he was loved.

optogirl

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Well that's alright then. At least she loved him. He might be dead but he was loved.

Nobody said it was alright

Raycyst

Muir wrote: »

...
I shed a few tears earlier when I passed the apartments where this poor child was killed, and I'm doing the same now reading some of the comments here.

This reminds me of the film Bedazzled, where the devil made someone so sensitive that they couldn't function. They'd break into tears at the sight of a sunset for example, or at the thought of a puppy. They couldn't see through the tears and so they couldn't function.

It's a disability to be so sensitive.

Like the peacocks tail, it is a disability but the game is in showing how you can survive in spite of your disability. Only a superhero type person could survive and prosper while having such a serious disability.

It's like winning a fight with a hand tied behind your back. You'd have to be very strong to do so.

Muir

Raycyst wrote: »

This reminds me of the film Bedazzled, where the devil made someone so sensitive that they couldn't function. They'd break into tears at the sight of a sunset for example, or at the thought of a puppy. They couldn't see through the tears and so they couldn't function.

It's a disability to be so sensitive.

Like the peacocks tail, it is a disability but the game is in showing how you can survive in spite of your disability. Only a superhero type person could survive and prosper while having such a serious disability.

It's like winning a fight with a hand tied behind your back. You'd have to be very strong to do so.

I'm not sure if you are just reminded of the film or implying I have a disability?
It's alright to feel upset when a child is killed very near you, and it's alright to feel upset at horrible comments about those suffering from mental illness, particularly when you are very close to someone suffering from one of those illnesses.

Raycyst

I'm saying that if someone is so paralysed by grief that it interferes with their ability to do their job, then that persons sensitivity must be considered a disability.

For example , Federica Mogherini, EU defence minister who broke into tears when she was supposed to be acting as EU defence minister. She failed to discharge her duties due to her sensitivity.

Is the EU well served by that?

Mr. CooL ICE

Mod:

Case will soon be before the courts. Until a verdict is reached, discussion of this case cannot be allowed.