Vatican alienates coeliacs and hipsters, trolls atheists by banning gluten free commu

Akrasia

The vatican has issued a statement saying that communion hosts must maintain 'the confection of bread' and therefore hosts must contain at least some gluten.

The vatican say low gluten bread is acceptable and should be safe for coeliacs to consume

Coeliacs are upset because any amount of gluten is harmful to them.

The vatican has yet to clarify what the gluten content of the transubstantiated actual corpse of Jesus is.

In the same statement, the vatican confirmed that genetically modified organisms are allowed in the production of communion. So it's good to know that they're modern not overly traditionalist

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.rte.ie/amp/889022/

Hotblack Desiato

I can't believe it's not Jesus: Vatican rules out gluten-free Communion

Says that wheat with removed/denatured gluten (less than 20ppm of gluten remaining, which is the usual definition for gluten-free foods) is acceptable. Non-wheat substitutes like rice or potato flour are not.

Parishioners who cannot tolerate even a trace amount of gluten should receive "wine only," the bishops' conference says, even if they would normally receive bread but not wine.

Could see that becoming more popular

magicbastarder

their committee meetings must be a hoot.
the debate about what qualifies as wine would have been interesting; do sulphites corrupt the transubstantiation process? let's do a taste test to find out.

Samaris

Given it's being transubstantiated by a miraculous process, I don't see why the gluten is neccessary.

Also, it's a good thing Jesus didn't do the whole process at the Last Supper with a bit of fish or the Church would really have struggled.

Absolam

I think it's down to the fact that it must be unleavened bread in order for it to be transubstantiated, and that can only be made from wheat. So as long as there is sufficient wheat present for it to be considered unleavened bread, even if that amount is so small as not to be injurious to coeliacs, then it qualifies as what can be transubstantiated.

Akrasia

Absolam wrote: »

I think it's down to the fact that it must be unleavened bread in order for it to be transubstantiated, and that can only be made from wheat. So as long as there is sufficient wheat present for it to be considered unleavened bread, even if that amount is so small as not to be injurious to coeliacs, then it qualifies as what can be transubstantiated.

But why?

Do miracles come with so many terms and conditions?

Samaris

Akrasia wrote: »

But why?

Do miracles come with so many terms and conditions?

Tbh, I can grant that one. Transubstantiation is a form of "spell"*, as much as prayers and the like are mantras/cantrips to increase focus and concentration on holy matters. The Unseen University might be able to summon Death with 2ccs of mouse blood and a small egg, but there's not much style to it, as Death would comment. While it should be perfectly possible to transform, say, a fish into the body of Christ, it's kinda more difficult to take seriously. Bit human instinct and human flair in this one - would a witch prefer to prepare her ingredients with a kitchen knife or a ebony-handed atheme blessed by Hecate, especially if her spell specifies the athame? A top athlete with a lucky charm probably won't be too happy kissing a small teddy for luck if he's lost his rabbit's foot.

Superstitious it may be, but it's internally consistent superstition.

Awkward for the coeliacs though.

*Spell, miracle, the purposeful use of arcane (Divine in this case) powers to transform one item directly into another item. It fits the term "spell" as well as anything else.

Samaris

Something I've just been reading about - why does the unleavened bread have to be wheat? Unleavened bread can be made from many different grains, a popular Finnish one is made with barley (rieska). Within Jewish tradition, the Passover bread (matzo) can be made of oats, which while doesn't solve the similar problem for everyone, the option helps. On the other hand the Host in Christian churches, for practicality's sake, is not Passover matzo that Jesus would have used - it is a mass produced wafer quite obviously different in all ways bar ingredients to the bread it is based on. This seems a necessary decision considering attendance sizes.

There is precedent even within the Church in the use of wine at Communion, although wine to the congregation is rarer now. Still, it appears that exceptions were tacitly made to rules laid out over the centuries for practicality's sake - wine called "mustum" was allowed (wine with very little fermentation, so very little alcohol) if there were extant issues, specifically such as the priest being an alcoholic (not a crack, that is the understanding)

In context of previous decisions and traditions, making them of oat flour (or at least having the option of) really doesn't seem like a stretch.

looksee

Logic, ethnic and biblical tradition doesn't come into it, this is religion. The RC church (as do all the others) works on the basis of 'its our church, we can do what we like'. And really, they are not wrong.

magicbastarder

it's the slippery slope argument which religious types like to use. if we don't explicitly define bread, next thing people will be using shortbread. then rich teas. then jaffa cakes.

kylith

Absolam wrote: »

I think it's down to the fact that it must be unleavened bread in order for it to be transubstantiated, and that can only be made from wheat. So as long as there is sufficient wheat present for it to be considered unleavened bread, even if that amount is so small as not to be injurious to coeliacs, then it qualifies as what can be transubstantiated.

Unleavened just means it has no raising agent like yeast or baking powder. What kind of god is it that can make a universe out of nothing but his say-so, but can't turn rice flour into flesh?

looksee

Absolam wrote: »

I think it's down to the fact that it must be unleavened bread in order for it to be transubstantiated, and that can only be made from wheat. So as long as there is sufficient wheat present for it to be considered unleavened bread, even if that amount is so small as not to be injurious to coeliacs, then it qualifies as what can be transubstantiated.

Lol, I missed that! As Kylith says, unleavened bread is not limited to wheat, it just means it has no raising agent. Now, wheat is easier to leaven as it has all that lovely gluten, but any 'flat bread' made of any grain could be unleavened.

ohnonotgmail

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's the slippery slope argument which religious types like to use. if we don't explicitly define bread, next thing people will be using shortbread. then rich teas. then jaffa cakes.

If they start handing out jaffa cakes i might find my faith again.

recedite

kylith wrote: »

What kind of god is it that can make a universe out of nothing but his say-so, but can't turn rice flour into flesh?

Its not that He can't do it, its just that He won't.
See, He made this arbitrary rule, and now it must be enforced until the end of time, otherwise we would question why he made the rule in the first place.
Its all about maintaining respect. Gods make the rules, minions follow them.

Samaris

recedite wrote: »

Its not that He can't do it, its just that He won't.
See, He made this arbitrary rule, and now it must be enforced until the end of time, otherwise we would question why he made the rule in the first place.
Its all about maintaining respect. Gods make the rules, minions follow them.

There is a reason for why the bread must be unleavened, I think. I assume it's to be the same bread that Jesus broke - matzo bread, the bread still eaten by Jews at Passover (and the rules are just as strict there. Oats -can- be used, because no-one's quite sure if oat is meant to be in there or if it's a mistranslation, but due to that uncertainly, it can only be used if the recipient cannot eat bread made of any of the other five accepted grains (which all contain gluten).

The wine has similar rules, although there is the mustum for priests who can't (or rather, shouldn't) have alcohol. I suspect it was taking "Do this in memory of me" a little literally and placing more importance on the details than the message - gather and break bread together in memory of Jesus.

Still though, given oats appear to be a viable option the ban seems short-sighted.

oldrnwisr

looksee wrote: »

Lol, I missed that! As Kylith says, unleavened bread is not limited to wheat, it just means it has no raising agent. Now, wheat is easier to leaven as it has all that lovely gluten, but any 'flat bread' made of any grain could be unleavened.

Sorry looksee, not meaning to be pedantic but wheat is only easier to leaven if yeast is your leavening agent. Gluten polymerises mechanically which is why yeasted bread is such a workout to make. You have to physically knead the dough to get the gluten strands to align and connect. If you're not using yeast as a leavening agent then you don't need gluten at all. You can use baking powder or bicarbonate and cream of tartar, as in soda bread. In fact, I find lower protein flour (cake flour for the Americans reading) to be better than strong flour in soda bread. Alternatively, you could just use xanthan gum as a gluten replacement if you're using a GF flour like coconut, rice, potato, chestnut etc.

looksee

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Sorry looksee, not meaning to be pedantic but wheat is only easier to leaven if yeast is your leavening agent. Gluten polymerises mechanically which is why yeasted bread is such a workout to make. You have to physically knead the dough to get the gluten strands to align and connect. If you're not using yeast as a leavening agent then you don't need gluten at all. You can use baking powder or bicarbonate and cream of tartar, as in soda bread. In fact, I find lower protein flour (cake flour for the Americans reading) to be better than strong flour in soda bread. Alternatively, you could just use xanthan gum as a gluten replacement if you're using a GF flour like coconut, rice, potato, chestnut etc.

Thank you O, you will note that I did not mention what kind of leavening agent, and I was being a bit flippant. I have been baking bread for over 50 years - well mostly non-yeast breads, so I do have a vague idea of the process. And I do eat gf nowadays so that is familiar too. I am also a historical re-enactor of the domestic variety so I am also aware of ancient processes.

robindch

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Gluten polymerises mechanically which is why yeasted bread is such a workout to make. You have to physically knead the dough to get the gluten strands to align and connect.

You don't need to knead if you leave the dough to prove for a long time with a tiny amount of yeast - stuff I make is 75% water, 1% salt with as little as 0.2% yeast, then just mix the dry ingredients, add the water and mix it just enough so that the water is mixed through, then lob in the fridge overnight, then take out and leave stand for a day or two, then punch down and leave rise for a couple of hours, then cook - this gives a nice sourdough taste, plus requires no kneading

lawred2

Akrasia wrote: »

The vatican has issued a statement saying that communion hosts must maintain 'the confection of bread' and therefore hosts must contain at least some gluten.

The vatican say low gluten bread is acceptable and should be safe for coeliacs to consume

Coeliacs are upset because any amount of gluten is harmful to them.

The vatican has yet to clarify what the gluten content of the transubstantiated actual corpse of Jesus is.

In the same statement, the vatican confirmed that genetically modified organisms are allowed in the production of communion. So it's good to know that they're modern not overly traditionalist

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.rte.ie/amp/889022/

surreal

kylith

robindch wrote: »

You don't need to knead if you leave the dough to prove for a long time with a tiny amount of yeast - stuff I make is 75% water, 1% salt with as little as 0.2% yeast, then just mix the dry ingredients, add the water and mix it just enough so that the water is mixed through, then lob in the fridge overnight, then take out and leave stand for a day or two, then punch down and leave rise for a couple of hours, then cook - this gives a nice sourdough taste, plus requires no kneading

Similar to mine. Water, flour, salt, bit of yeast, mix, leave on fishtank for the day, punch down, leave to rise while the oven and pot preheats*, bake.

*I cook it in a cast iron casserole dish, it gives a lovely crust.

recedite

looksee wrote: »

I am also a historical re-enactor of the domestic variety so I am also aware of ancient processes.

Is this using spelt wheat flour, or something else?

smacl

robindch wrote: »

You don't need to knead if you leave the dough to prove for a long time with a tiny amount of yeast - stuff I make is 75% water, 1% salt with as little as 0.2% yeast, then just mix the dry ingredients, add the water and mix it just enough so that the water is mixed through, then lob in the fridge overnight, then take out and leave stand for a day or two, then punch down and leave rise for a couple of hours, then cook - this gives a nice sourdough taste, plus requires no kneading

Alternatively, you could use a bit of body of Christ as the leavening agent, rising being pretty much his main act

looksee

Sometimes spelt flour, sometimes oat or barley. I am not an authority on bread particularly, I tend to make 'pancake' type flatbreads with whatever flour I have to hand when I make it at all - they are quick and lovely eaten fresh. You can raise bread with beer too (not sure if its primarily the yeast or the effervescence that works) if you are quick about it, straight into the oven. I have no idea whether that is authentic, but it tastes good!

Hotblack Desiato

That'd depend on the type of beer, sadly most types available commercially are pasteurised and therefore contain no live yeast.

looksee

No, it works with any beer, I think it must be the fizz that does the raising.

Akrasia

This thread is now the second most informative thread on a&a (after the biscuit one)

smacl

Akrasia wrote: »

This thread is now the second most informative thread on a&a (after the biscuit one)

Just wait until it drifts towards focaccia, inevitably meanders on over to pizza at which point pineapple rears its ugly head once more. The curse that lies over A&A isn't so easily escaped :pac:

Samaris

"Pizza of Christ..."

looksee

Pineapple on pizza, yum. See you later guys, I have a date with a Hawaiian pizza (gluten free!)

robindch

kylith wrote: »

Similar to mine. Water, flour, salt, bit of yeast, mix, leave on fishtank for the day, punch down, leave to rise while the oven and pot preheats*, bake.

*I cook it in a cast iron casserole dish, it gives a lovely crust.

Yes, forgot to mention the cast iron casserole dish, plus lid which comes off half way through at the same time as a little sprinkle of water goes over the top of the nicely rising loaf, just to get that nice shine.

Tried temperatures from 180C to 220C, but haven't noticed much difference between them. Must try 280 sometime for a laugh

robindch

looksee wrote: »

You can raise bread with beer too (not sure if its primarily the yeast or the effervescence that works) if you are quick about it, straight into the oven. I have no idea whether that is authentic, but it tastes good!

Last place I lived, I spent a month or two building up a lovely starter - lobbed in grape skins plus water plus flour, cleaned it up, fed it, all looked lovely after around a month or so.

Then Popette dropped by for dinner one evening and f*cked it down the sink for me as "it looked rotten, whatever it was".

smacl

Samaris wrote: »

"Pizza of Christ..."

Recipe never works for me. Great flavour, lovely rise on the dough, but just can't get it to transubstantiate

kylith

robindch wrote: »

Last place I lived, I spent a month or two building up a lovely starter - lobbed in grape skins plus water plus flour, cleaned it up, fed it, all looked lovely after around a month or so.

Then Popette dropped by for dinner one evening and f*cked it down the sink for me as "it looked rotten, whatever it was".

No jury would convict, you know.

Hotblack Desiato

Many years ago my mother had what was oddly called a 'buttermilk plant' in a little jar which must have been some yeast based organism... its output was used for baking soda bread IIRC, which doesn't need yeast obviously so I think this thing was fed with milk and soured it and it could then be used as a substitute for buttermilk.

Anyway something went wrong after 2 or 3 weeks and that was the end of that and we never had one again.

looksee

Yes, there was a mad fad for them in the 80s i think. I suppose people must still use them but like your mother I had one for a few weeks then didn't look after it properly and it faded away.

recedite

Sounds like the beast that robindch was trying to reanimate, until the Popette euthanased it.
Begone, ye vile unholy creature!

Johnboy1951

Akrasia wrote: »

The vatican has issued a statement saying that communion hosts must maintain 'the confection of bread' and therefore hosts must contain at least some gluten.

The vatican say low gluten bread is acceptable and should be safe for coeliacs to consume

Coeliacs are upset because any amount of gluten is harmful to them.

But if the transubstantiation is successful why would coeliacs be concerned?
I could understand vegetarians objecting but coeliacs?

goose2005

kylith wrote: »

Unleavened just means it has no raising agent like yeast or baking powder. What kind of god is it that can make a universe out of nothing but his say-so, but can't turn rice flour into flesh?

God can create the universe, but once he sets it going his capacity to influence things is limited - at least that's the impression you get from scripture. Certainly there's not much in the bible to suggest that he is omnipotent.

Akrasia

goose2005 wrote: »

God can create the universe, but once he sets it going his capacity to influence things is limited - at least that's the impression you get from scripture. Certainly there's not much in the bible to suggest that he is omnipotent.

Donald Trump is POTUS. Its all gone floppy