Apple Athenry data centre

threeball

cnocbui wrote: »

The Athenry data centre, if expanded to the full projected size, would have increased Ireland's electricity consumption by 8%.

Given Ireland is possibly already on the hook for probable multi million EU fines for not meeting CO2 targets, the whole idea was daft. You can be sure Apple wasn't going to be the ones paying the fines or a share of them.

People haven't the first clue whats coming down the road for them in terms of additional taxes when all this kicks in yet they're kicking and screaming about a big useless warehouse that would bring nothing in terms of economic development to the area. If Apple want to put a manufacturing or an R&D plant in Athenry then work away. This thing was a lucky escape.

grbear

grbear wrote: »

The second site in Denmark was cancelled. The first is being expanded.

Your not allowed speak truth in this thread. Truth seems to upset people.

threeball

threeball wrote: »

People haven't the first clue whats coming down the road for them in terms of additional taxes when all this kicks in yet they're kicking and screaming about a big useless warehouse that would bring nothing in terms of economic development to the area. If Apple want to put a manufacturing or an R&D plant in Athenry then work away. This thing was a lucky escape.

Scaremongering nonsense.

Ireland is massively pushing to get these types of multinational ICT facilities into the county, it’s literally a key part of the counties plans over the next 20 years.

There are always people against progress and we obviously have a few hanging around this thread. The vast vast majority of people in the county and country in general were welcoming this with open arms as they actually understand the huge benefit both directly and indirectly.

ezstreet5

Johnny Poor Lemonade wrote: »

Scaremongering nonsense.

Ireland is massively pushing to get these types of multinational ICT facilities into the county, it’s literally a key part of the counties plans over the next 20 years.

There are always people against progress and we obviously have a few hanging around this thread. The vast vast majority of people in the county and country in general were welcoming this with open arms as they actually understand the huge benefit both directly and indirectly.

Exactly. The Athenry data centre would have been a top-class chocolate factory of pure imagination. Athenry won the golden ticket, and all of our kids would have been the oompa loompas working for Apple, or if not, they could at least clean Apple's loos. Now, my wee Róisín (aged 8) and Jack (aged 5) have already emigrated to New Zealand, and we haven't a hope of any future, and I am so depressed because I believed everything my politicians and government said.

TheIrishGrover

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Exactly. The Athenry data centre would have been a top-class chocolate factory of pure imagination. Athenry won the golden ticket, and all of our kids would have been the oompa loompas working for Apple, or if not, they could at least clean Apple's loos. Now, my wee Róisín (aged 8) and Jack (aged 5) have already emigrated to New Zealand, and we haven't a hope of any future, and I am so depressed because I believed everything my politicians and government said.

??????? If this is the level of debate one can expect then Apple (and others) dodged a bullet. Apple Apple apple apple. Wow. Now I know why Supermacs came from Galway - everyone there has a massive chip in their shoulder.

...... Useless warehouse..... You do know that cloud storage isn't really in the sky, right?

threeball

Johnny Poor Lemonade wrote: »

threeball wrote: »

People haven't the first clue whats coming down the road for them in terms of additional taxes when all this kicks in yet they're kicking and screaming about a big useless warehouse that would bring nothing in terms of economic development to the area. If Apple want to put a manufacturing or an R&D plant in Athenry then work away. This thing was a lucky escape.

Scaremongering nonsense.

Ireland is massively pushing to get these types of multinational ICT facilities into the county, it’s literally a key part of the counties plans over the next 20 years.

There are always people against progress and we obviously have a few hanging around this thread. The vast vast majority of people in the county and country in general were welcoming this with open arms as they actually understand the huge benefit both directly and indirectly.

That fills me with confidence knowing that's the plan our government has laid out. How could I doubt a body so well known for strategic planning and foresight. Those 20 or 30 jobs would have finally seen us reach full employment and Athenry would be Europe's silicon Valley. That whole carbon tax thing will never happen either.

ezstreet5

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

??????? If this is the level of debate one can expect then Apple (and others) dodged a bullet. Apple Apple apple apple. Wow. Now I know why Supermacs came from Galway - everyone there has a massive chip in their shoulder.

...... Useless warehouse..... You do know that cloud storage isn't really in the sky, right?

Cllr Tom McNamara of Clare said of their planned data cenre:

"It will be the same as having a gold mine. The spin-off from this for Ennis and Clare will be unbelievable".

Where is my gold mine?

One argument I read here was there's no talent in Athenry so the jobs will go to outsiders.

I spent all today in a DC. Im from Athenry, my boss lives in Loughrea. Instead of paying extortionate rent in Dublin I'd love to live down home. Thanks for sabotaging that possibility feckless twats of Lysheenkyle.

TheIrishGrover

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Cllr Tom McNamara of Clare said of their planned data cenre:

"It will be the same as having a gold mine. The spin-off from this for Ennis and Clare will be unbelievable".

Where is my gold mine?

a couple of people protested and it was cancelled.....

Ah, I've made my points and others have made theirs. I believe I'm right and they won't convince me otherwise. They believe they are right and I won't convince them otherwise so I'm done. I'm sure there will be a glib, nonsensical rebuttal to this but I'm done responding to them. I like to think I have a well thought out reply to silly and pointless comments about my posts but it's not really worth my time.

threeball

Deleted User wrote: »

One argument I read here was there's no talent in Athenry so the jobs will go to outsiders.

I spent all today in a DC. Im from Athenry, my boss lives in Loughrea. Instead of paying extortionate rent in Dublin I'd love to live down home. Thanks for sabotaging that possibility feckless twats of Lysheenkyle.

So they should have built a DC so you could have a job close to home. I've heard it all now. We should probably build an airport in athenry, I know a couple of pilots from up that side too.

the whole year inn

Do some people not even read what the protesters where protesting about. They had valid protests that I thought would needed to be addressed. They were not protesting for the sake of it. I think if Apple addressed these I would have had no problem with the data center being built but they were playing us for mugs then god riddance to them .

Drumpot

Johnny Poor Lemonade wrote: »

Scaremongering nonsense.

Ireland is massively pushing to get these types of multinational ICT facilities into the county, it’s literally a key part of the counties plans over the next 20 years.

There are always people against progress and we obviously have a few hanging around this thread. The vast vast majority of people in the county and country in general were welcoming this with open arms as they actually understand the huge benefit both directly and indirectly.

Iceland’s energy is mostly renewable , that probably has something to do with it. Lots of those mining bitcoin groups go there aswell. I didn’t realize the amount of electricity that was apparently required to run that failed Apple plant.

So many people don’t want to know the full costs and damage of things that sound good. Progress , as far as I am concerned, is making informed choices with the long term sustainability in mind. I’d love to see detailed information , objective information, on the pros and cons of athenry data centre. You only ever here one side from the people for or against it.

faceman

the whole year inn wrote: »

Do some people not even read what the protesters where protesting about. They had valid protests that I thought would needed to be addressed. They were not protesting for the sake of it. I think if Apple addressed these I would have had no problem with the data center being built but they were playing us for mugs then god riddance to them .

Nonsense. The main reason for the objections were environmental. Which were rejected by the courts.
8 people objected, including objectors from a different county. All objections were rejected by the courts, albeit at a painfully slow rate.

To put it in perspective, 8 people objected, 2,000 local people protested in support of the facility. Over 350 jobs would have been created.

Wompa1

Should have been given the go ahead quicker but most likely wouldn't have even happened even if approved considering Apple's track record.

I wonder, if they'll announce plans to build it again or at least create more jobs in Ireland if the tax case today goes well for them (and most likely when it goes to the highest court after this)

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0917/1076337-apple-eu-commission/

One would think they should reward the Irish Government's loyalty by putting the money in an escrow account during this whole thing. I'd bet if they eventually lose, they will get that 13 billion back over time through grants with the deal being they create more job and kick in the interest.

All speculative based on Apple being a horrible company

threeball

faceman wrote: »

the whole year inn wrote: »

Do some people not even read what the protesters where protesting about. They had valid protests that I thought would needed to be addressed. They were not protesting for the sake of it. I think if Apple addressed these I would have had no problem with the data center being built but they were playing us for mugs then god riddance to them .

Nonsense. The main reason for the objections were environmental. Which were rejected by the courts.
8 people objected, including objectors from a different county. All objections were rejected by the courts, albeit at a painfully slow rate.

To put it in perspective, 8 people objected, 2,000 local people protested in support of the facility. Over 350 jobs would have been created.

350 jobs my arse. 330 temporary jobs for the construction phase in an already understaffed construction sector. If you want a job in construction you could pick up 3 in the morning. There's no staff to be had. Most of that 320 would have been brought in from elsewhere with previous experience in delivering data centres. It's not like Paddy Joe Construction from 3 miles outside athenry was going to get the contract.

Data centres claim to be renewable but none are. They just buy up wind farms that have received planning which reduces the amount of renewable energy that was going to go on to the grid to reduce our carbon emissions. We then end up footing the bill.

Wompa1

threeball wrote: »

Data centres claim to be renewable but none are. They just buy up wind farms that have received planning which reduces the amount of renewable energy that was going to go on to the grid to reduce our carbon emissions. We then end up footing the bill.

This! A few of the big companies have been doing this. An example within Ireland is Amazon buying a wind farm in Donegal.

Wompa1

Wompa1 wrote: »

One would think they should reward the Irish Government's loyalty by putting the money in an escrow account during this whole thing. I'd bet if they eventually lose, they will get that 13 billion back over time through grants with the deal being they create more job and kick in the interest.

All speculative based on Apple being a horrible company

Horrible company? :rolleyes: nonsense.

I am absolutely hope beyond hope the gov and Apple win this case. It’s insane this is even happening in the first place. If they lose I would fully hope and expect the money to get back to them in the ways you describe and rightly so.

Apple are a fantastic company and are massively important to Ireland. Some other pain one the hole Eu countries who are jealous of us are the ones forcing this.

Mr. teddywinkles

threeball wrote: »

350 jobs my arse. 330 temporary jobs for the construction phase in an already understaffed construction sector. If you want a job in construction you could pick up 3 in the morning. There's no staff to be had. Most of that 320 would have been brought in from elsewhere with previous experience in delivering data centres. It's not like Paddy Joe Construction from 3 miles outside athenry was going to get the contract.

Data centres claim to be renewable but none are. They just buy up wind farms that have received planning which reduces the amount of renewable energy that was going to go on to the grid to reduce our carbon emissions. We then end up footing the bill.

Honestly if yis seen the copper that goes into these builds. Massive energy consumption.

faceman

threeball wrote: »

350 jobs my arse. 330 temporary jobs for the construction phase in an already understaffed construction sector. If you want a job in construction you could pick up 3 in the morning. There's no staff to be had. Most of that 320 would have been brought in from elsewhere with previous experience in delivering data centres. It's not like Paddy Joe Construction from 3 miles outside athenry was going to get the contract.

Data centres claim to be renewable but none are. They just buy up wind farms that have received planning which reduces the amount of renewable energy that was going to go on to the grid to reduce our carbon emissions. We then end up footing the bill.

Whats your source for your claims about the jobs?

CrankyHaus

faceman wrote: »

Whats your source for your claims about the jobs?

It's absolute waffle. I remembering visiting the Facebook Clonee datacentre site for work and it was Irish companies, all the employees I happened to meet were Irish too, mainly blocklayers from outside Dublin. (though obviously that was coincidence, construction employs plenty of non-Irish who come here, as it should if they're the best person for the job and are here legally)

salmocab

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It's absolute waffle. I remembering visiting the Facebook Clonee datacentre site for work and it was Irish companies, all the employees I happened to meet were Irish too, mainly blocklayers from outside Dublin. (though obviously that was coincidence, construction employs plenty of non-Irish who come here, as it should if they're the best person for the job and are here legally)

The main contractor was English but all the trades were Irish companies on that site.

threeball

threeball wrote: »

So they should have built a DC so you could have a job close to home. I've heard it all now. We should probably build an airport in athenry, I know a couple of pilots from up that side too.

Thats not what I meant and you know it, but you're happy to trot out any auld ****e.

Stichy

threeball wrote: »

350 jobs my arse. 330 temporary jobs for the construction phase in an already understaffed construction sector. If you want a job in construction you could pick up 3 in the morning. There's no staff to be had. Most of that 320 would have been brought in from elsewhere with previous experience in delivering data centres. It's not like Paddy Joe Construction from 3 miles outside athenry was going to get the contract.

Data centres claim to be renewable but none are. They just buy up wind farms that have received planning which reduces the amount of renewable energy that was going to go on to the grid to reduce our carbon emissions. We then end up footing the bill.

Have you ever worked in a DC either during construction or after?

threeball

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It's absolute waffle. I remembering visiting the Facebook Clonee datacentre site for work and it was Irish companies, all the employees I happened to meet were Irish too, mainly blocklayers from outside Dublin. (though obviously that was coincidence, construction employs plenty of non-Irish who come here, as it should if they're the best person for the job and are here legally)

Where did I say they wouldn't be Irish? I said they wouldn't be from Athenry which is what the locals were all bitching about. The vast majority of work on site is M&E and Tech, theres fcuk all blocklaying or plastering on these sites. Last time I checked Athenry wasn't a headquarters for Kirbys, Winthrop or Mercury and there isn't exactly IT lads sitting down by Kenny Park beging for change either.

Wompa1

Johnny Poor Lemonade wrote: »

Horrible company? :rolleyes: nonsense.

I am absolutely hope beyond hope the gov and Apple win this case. It’s insane this is even happening in the first place. If they lose I would fully hope and expect the money to get back to them in the ways you describe and rightly so.

Apple are a fantastic company and are massively important to Ireland. Some other pain one the hole Eu countries who are jealous of us are the ones forcing this.

Nonsense? It's an opinion but one I can give plenty of examples for if that helps to justify my opinion. First, you could just watch the Panorama documentary that aired a few years ago to see some of the horror in the mines and factories. I think everyone knows FoxConn factory workers were literally jumping off of the roof of the factory the iPhones were being manufactured in.

Apple also have a history of doing a Trump. Reneging on deals or not paying for work completed in the knowledge they have a team of lawyers and can drag out court cases until the other party run out of money. A company in the US for example had a contract for manufacturing screens for the iPhone. It was by far their largest ever contract and to meet it, they needed to build a massive factory, invest in new equipment and hire a sh1t load of people.

They got everything setup and in place and then Apple reneged. Apple claimed they were mislead about the quality of the screens and the other company claimed Apple did a bait and switch. They knowingly let them go all in for this huge project and then tried to back out with a BS excuse.

It took close to 3 years but eventually there was a settlement for an undisclosed amount but at that point the company needed to clear the case to finalize it's bankruptcy to move forward.

Being great for Ireland is also an opinion but the fact is they have been paying an effective tax rate of 2%. They have multiple shell companies hiring one or two people with no physical offices. They claim to employ 6k people directly, if you do a bit of research the average salary of those employees falls between 26k-30k. It's very possible that Apple's Irish employees combined are contributing more in taxes per year than they are.

Warren Buffet (that PoS) has said his secretary pays a higher effective rate of tax on her meager salary than he does and how broken the system is in the US and that's where salary is typically higher than here and taxes are lower.

Apple also have a reputation for treatment of contractors. Those brave enough to speak out.

I stand by labelling them horrible with evidence provided. Apple are a horrible company who make great hardware, are very good at marketing and make sh1t software.

I'm also for keeping a low corporate tax rate but actually getting them to pay the correct rate or at least closer to it after incentives is needed. No point being bootlickers and allowing the middle class to carry the entire tax burden.

the whole year inn

faceman wrote: »

Nonsense. The main reason for the objections were environmental. Which were rejected by the courts.
8 people objected, including objectors from a different county. All objections were rejected by the courts, albeit at a painfully slow rate.

To put it in perspective, 8 people objected, 2,000 local people protested in support of the facility. Over 350 jobs would have been created.

Fair enough they where denied in the courts but they were still valid objections . There was only 2 objectors in the end , that actually went the distance , the rest were thrown out which rightly so as some of them where ridiculous.

Robbo

Wompa1 wrote: »

Being great for Ireland is also an opinion but the fact is they have been paying an effective tax rate of 2%. They have multiple shell companies hiring one or two people with no physical offices. They claim to employ 6k people directly, if you do a bit of research the average salary of those employees falls between 26k-30k. It's very possible that Apple's Irish employees combined are contributing more in taxes per year than they are.

You may want to revisit some of your points. Apple's tax status in Ireland has been regularised in recent years and their tax bills to the Revenue have been quite steep, giving an effective rate of taxation of 14%. All of the Apple group companies have registered offices at Holyhill in Cork so to assert that they've "no physical offices" is deeply incorrect.

Quite rightly, whatever sweetheart deal the State cut them in the 80s or offshore chicanery used that currently has the State in the CJEU is a different, historic disgrace.

grbear

the whole year inn wrote: »

Fair enough they where denied in the courts but they were still valid objections . There was only 2 objectors in the end , that actually went the distance , the rest were thrown out which rightly so as some of them where ridiculous.

There's a problem with a system which lets people draw out the appeals process by leaving it as late as possible to lodge the appeal. People should absolutely have the right to appeal but it's hard to look at the timeline of the planning process for the Athenry site and come to any conclusion other than dragging things out was a deliberate tactic. Possibly the window people are given to lodge an appeal should be shortened.

I think that's a perfectly fair statement regardless of which side of the debate over the data centre you fall on.

ezstreet5

grbear wrote: »

There's a problem with a system which lets people draw out the appeals process by leaving it as late as possible to lodge the appeal. People should absolutely have the right to appeal but it's hard to look at the timeline of the planning process for the Athenry site and come to any conclusion other than dragging things out was a deliberate tactic. Possibly the window people are given to lodge an appeal should be shortened.

I think that's a perfectly fair statement regardless of which side of the debate over the data centre you fall on.

Nah. There are statutory deadlines for submitting objections and appeals at every level. Objections are either filed on time (and the appeal is valid) or they are late (and the appeal is dismissed for being out-of-time). We can only assume that the objectors filed everything on-time since their case was heard. Are you saying they should have handed in their homework a few days earlier?

I'd say the delays were caused by decision makers (planners, judges, etc.) in a state of paralysis. On one hand, there were valid objections, and on the other hand, the consequences of ruling against Apple and a pet industry were unthinkable. So, the objectors were told to toddle off.

ezstreet5

Robbo wrote: »

You may want to revisit some of your points. Apple's tax status in Ireland has been regularised in recent years and their tax bills to the Revenue have been quite steep, giving an effective rate of taxation of 14%. All of the Apple group companies have registered offices at Holyhill in Cork so to assert that they've "no physical offices" is deeply incorrect.

Quite rightly, whatever sweetheart deal the State cut them in the 80s or offshore chicanery used that currently has the State in the CJEU is a different, historic disgrace.

Keep in mind that the 14% relates to "net profit," as calculated by Apple's accountants. According to the article, €1.8 billion tax was paid on sales of €156 billion. If you or I had "turnover" of €156,000, and paid only €1,800 to Revenue, we'd be facing audits in the morning. And if I recall, the "regularisation" of Apple's tax affairs resulted in a few of their Hollyhill-registered companies transitioning from a tax home of nowhere, to Jersey. So I'm not exactly doing cartwheels. At least Ireland has moved from actual laundries to money laundries.