Apple Athenry data centre

ronnie3585

Any word on when the applicants' application for leave to appeal will be back before the High Court? Was in for mention yesterday but the Four Courts was closed.

martinkop

They will go ahead with requesting an appeal
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2017/1017/912972-apple/

Kermit.de.frog

I would fully support Apple scrapping the investment now. Lessons need to be learned about our delinquent planning system that allows a handful of cranks put projects at risk and I think this is best done by losing an €850m investment for it's shock value.

I feel sorry for the people of Athenry who will miss out on the investment. That's the country we live in.

martinkop

martinkop wrote: »

They will go ahead with requesting an appeal
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2017/1017/912972-apple/

I can see a couple of people having their homes burnt out over this. Apple, if they had any sense would cut their losses and move on. The lad from Wicklow who is now going after Amazon deserves a slap, he's a nuisance and no one should take him seriously as he's little more than a crank out to make as much for himself as possible.

stampydmonkey

_Puma_ wrote: »

I couldn't think of a worse use of the national grid capacity than Data centers. In the short term expect the PSO levy to keep increasing as we Import more Coal and Gas to meet the demand of these things coming online.

We are actually importing less gas now than ever with the Corrib Field on line:rolleyes:

JRant

_Puma_ wrote: »

I couldn't think of a worse use of the national grid capacity than Data centers. In the short term expect the PSO levy to keep increasing as we Import more Coal and Gas to meet the demand of these things coming online. Our EU emission targets are regressing and we are almost certain to be met with Large EU fines for not reaching the targets we set ourselves. The definition of incompetence.

I'm not sure I understand your point Puma. EirGrid have a 10 year forecast, freely available on their website. That is includes capacity that is already planned for. It's been suggested that data centres will use up to 75% of this additional capacity. That would only be true if EirGrid gave them every connection they asked for, which just won't happen.

Anyway, whether the power is used by data centres, residential or industries is a moot point. The government know what the forecast is and have done absolutely nothing to address the planning issues surrounding large infrastructure projects.

Another question that I haven't seen answered sufficiently is who is funding these cases. It costs a lot of money to bring a case to the high court and appealing will cost even more. How they can appeal after such a damning conclusion is also ridiculous.

ezstreet5

JRant wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand your point Puma. EirGrid have a 10 year forecast, freely available on their website. That is includes capacity that is already planned for. It's been suggested that data centres will use up to 75% of this additional capacity. That would only be true if EirGrid gave them every connection they asked for, which just won't happen.

Anyway, whether the power is used by data centres, residential or industries is a moot point. The government know what the forecast is and have done absolutely nothing to address the planning issues surrounding large infrastructure projects.

Another question that I haven't seen answered sufficiently is who is funding these cases. It costs a lot of money to bring a case to the high court and appealing will cost even more. How they can appeal after such a damning conclusion is also ridiculous.

Eirgrid will in fact connect EVERY data centre seeking a connection, if it is physically possible at that moment. The game is that the data centre will apply for planning as a single data hall, but the grid connection will be capable of accommodating a much larger master plan. The data centre pays 50% of that "shallow" connection. Then, when they expand and build further data halls, deep grid reinforcements become necessary, but these are just considered "natural growth." Demand customers pay 0% for any deep grid reinforcements that indirectly become necessary due to their existence.

teddyhead

A genuine non trolly question here .

Could you not create the same amount of employment by setting up a state of the art hemp farm/procesing plant ?

With less environmental impact .

The law is not an issue if you just produce for the legitimate export market .We already produce sophisticated pharmaceutical products ,some of which are subject to global drug controls, its not an issue,in economic terms.
The hemp market is apparently growing, globally.

What will the data centre create/contribute, in real terms,that couldnt be achieved by other , low impact ,agri industrial projects?

Some might say hemp is an unrealistic/outlandish alternative but is the data center not itself, quite outlandish and unrealistic in its own way?

What is it that makes the Apple deal so sweet ? What kind of a deal do we have with Apple inc anyway ? or is that a stupid question ?

what_traffic

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/court-gives-green-light-for-apple-data-centre-in-athenry-1.3276316
"
The proposed €850 million Apple data centre in Athenry received the final green light this morning, after the High Court rejected an appeal from objectors to the scheme.
"

hoody

Any idea of how long it will be before they start works on the site?

Raging_Ninja

teddyhead wrote: »

A genuine non trolly question here .

Could you not create the same amount of employment by setting up a state of the art hemp farm/procesing plant ?

With less environmental impact .

The law is not an issue if you just produce for the legitimate export market .We already produce sophisticated pharmaceutical products ,some of which are subject to global drug controls, its not an issue,in economic terms.
The hemp market is apparently growing, globally.

What will the data centre create/contribute, in real terms,that couldnt be achieved by other , low impact ,agri industrial projects?

Some might say hemp is an unrealistic/outlandish alternative but is the data center not itself, quite outlandish and unrealistic in its own way?

What is it that makes the Apple deal so sweet ? What kind of a deal do we have with Apple inc anyway ? or is that a stupid question ?

Go for it dude, get the funding together and set your hemp farm up.

JRant

hoody wrote: »

Any idea of how long it will be before they start works on the site?

I believe Apple are being a bit noncommittal on this. I fear that the entire project could well be up in the air right now, which would be a terrible shame for the area.

Bobeagleburger

JRant wrote: »

I believe Apple are being a bit noncommittal on this. I fear that the entire project could well be up in the air right now, which would be a terrible shame for the area.

I wouldn't blame them.

I'd be looking elsewhere if I was them.

martinkop

Probably waiting for Leo to land over with a sweetener this week...."Don;t worry about the 13 billion you owe us, sure we'll get that in income tax off the 100 people this will employ:rolleyes:

Mrs OBumble

martinkop wrote: »

Probably waiting for Leo to land over with a sweetener this week...."Don;t worry about the 13 billion you owe us, sure we'll get that in income tax off the 100 people this will employ:rolleyes:

Security guards ain't that well paid.

Robbo

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmm, based on the decision today I can definitely see this being appealed

Alan had legitimate concerns that were grounded in fact.

The High Court in refusing leave to appeal had other ideas.

The court is also satisfied that many of the arguments addressed in the applicants’ submissions on this application seek to reargue aspects of the case which were the subject of argument before the Inspector and later before this Court in the course of the judicial review. It seems to me that much of this argument is based on the fact that the applicants disagree with the Inspector’s conclusions and disagree with the court’s application of the legal principles which govern the issues in this case as they are applied to the facts of this case. In essence none of the five points advanced transcend the facts of this particular case. The court is not satisfied that the applicants meet the criteria set out in the authorities for the certification of a point of law of exceptional public importance under s. 50A(7) in respect of any of the five points advanced.

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, just to pour a bit of cold water on things, don't forget, this permission applies to only the first data centre. The other 7 will require individual permissions to be sought for each one.

The first High Court judgment didn't exactly take kindly to being asked to judicially review a hypothetical decision that hasn't and may not ever be made.

The court is not satisfied that there was any obligation to carry out an EIA of the entire masterplan which was not the subject of the planning permission application. Of primary concern to the competent authority is the development in respect of which the EIA is required.

dubhthach

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Security guards ain't that well paid.

Perhaps but NOC Engineers/Technicians can be paid anywhere between 40 and 60k+ euro depending on role and seniority. That and site like this is gonna have a number of interesting roles when it comes to build out (for example Facebook are looking for a Chemical engineer for their large scale DC project in Clonee). Every data center I've been in usually only had one or two security guards for every 5-10 operations staff. Bigger the DC the higher the ratio.

MacGyver007

Sadly it's not looking good for Athenry now

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/apples-850m-data-centre-in-major-doubt-after-meeting-between-cook-and-varadkar-36286739.html

Nettle Soup

Great news! Finally.

yew_tree

Disgraceful that 2/3 people can hold up such a project especially when one of them lives in Dublin. Laughable. I wouldn't blame Apple for walking away. The knock on effect of this in attracting further Data Center developments is massive.

jimmycrackcorm

Nettle Soup wrote:

Great news! Finally.

What's great? That Apple were able to build a data centre in Denmark in the same time period fussy whiners were able to hold up plans here?

Larbre34

yew_tree wrote: »

Disgraceful that 2/3 people can hold up such a project especially when one of them lives in Dublin. Laughable. I wouldn't blame Apple for walking away. The knock on effect of this in attracting further Data Center developments is massive.

I'll bet the blood drained out of Varadkar's face. Not a good week reputationally for Ireland inc.

He may pull the finger out and legislate for this sort of stuff, vexatious planning appeals, massively elongated assessment periods and NIMBYism for the greater good of the country.

If this does not proceed, no matter his stance, Ciaran Cannon is a dead man politically. And probably Govt TDs in neighbouring constituencies too

TomOnBoard

Larbre34 wrote: »

I'll bet the blood drained out of Varadkar's face. Not a good week reputationally for Ireland inc.

He may pull the finger out and legislate for this sort of stuff, vexatious planning appeals, massively elongated assessment periods and NIMBYism for the greater good of the country.

Games are being played out!

Ireland stands to gain €13 billions plus penalties from the EU Apple Tax decision. Apple needs to show that its not going to roll over on that EU demand. While Ireland Inc would love to get the €13+ billions, we're currently playing the public game that we don't want it, but we're using the European Commission to continue to force us to accept it. Then we can say to Apple that "Shure we didn't want to take it, but the lads in Brussels are forcing us to do so"!

In the meantime, Apple decides to build data centres in 2 locations: 1 in Ireland and 1 in Denmark. Since the announcement, not a sod was turned in Ireland, and the Danes have theirs almost built! If you were Apple, motivated SOLELY by profit, what would you do with all this?

You'd tell Varadkar that the game is still on, but I don;t like all the goals you're trying to score against me! Hence, no commitment to go ahead with Athenry.

All the other stuff about Electricity supply, few ongoing jobs etc., while of crucial importance locally and to Ireland Inc., are totally irrelevant to Apple's decision making process. They're issues for Irl inc. to deal with and if we can't or won't deliver the power to their door, they won't be interested in proceeding. And if we do get the 13Bn, they won't be much interested in it then either.

So, its not about a single thing! Its about all the things that are bubbling away like in a home- made soup. Apple simply doesn't like the stuff that was put into the soup and they prefer both the flavour of the Danish version and the way the Danes chop up their carrots. Hence, the Danes get the go-ahead to start another phase.

Oh, and of course, our Data Protection Regime, whose light touch would have previously been considered to be a big benefit to a Data Centre here is having to step up its own game to conform to EU & US (Patriot Act) law, probably removing much of the previously considered benefit to Apple of locating its data here.

One bottom line in all this however is that there does need to be a much more strategic approach to infrastructure (including electrical grid) in this country including zoning for industry across the country and not just in the main Urban centres, before the rest of the country dies a slow death and becomes a set of dormitory towns & villages for the 3 or 4 main centres in which all the industry will locate.

1641

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Games are being played out!

Have you access to some inside information that is not in the public domain? If so can you share ?

Or is this a "theory"?

Robbo

Robbo wrote: »

The High Court in refusing leave to appeal had other ideas.


The first High Court judgment didn't exactly take kindly to being asked to judicially review a hypothetical decision that hasn't and may not ever be made.

Aye I saw that.

Safe to say Apple won't fancy going through the ringer with 7 more applications though all of which can be subject to the same objection.

At what point do you assess the impact of a site that will consume the same amount of electricity as several counties (houses).

To be honest, I'd say it's a dead duck and won't be built

L.Jenkins

Talk about a massive fúck up on Irish planning laws if they don't go through with development. Is it definitive that Apple won't proceed? If not, will there be a witch hunt for objectors and others who failed to help proceedings along I wonder?

€850 million is not something to turn our noses up at. It's no so little that we can refuse on a whim.

the whole year inn

Gladly take a 50 euro charity bet that this goes through within 6 months.
Bully and scare tactics.

JRant

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Games are being played out!

Ireland stands to gain €13 billions plus penalties from the EU Apple Tax decision. Apple needs to show that its not going to roll over on that EU demand. While Ireland Inc would love to get the €13+ billions, we're currently playing the public game that we don't want it, but we're using the European Commission to continue to force us to accept it. Then we can say to Apple that "Shure we didn't want to take it, but the lads in Brussels are forcing us to do so"!

In the meantime, Apple decides to build data centres in 2 locations: 1 in Ireland and 1 in Denmark. Since the announcement, not a sod was turned in Ireland, and the Danes have theirs almost built! If you were Apple, motivated SOLELY by profit, what would you do with all this?

You'd tell Varadkar that the game is still on, but I don;t like all the goals you're trying to score against me! Hence, no commitment to go ahead with Athenry.

All the other stuff about Electricity supply, few ongoing jobs etc., while of crucial importance locally and to Ireland Inc., are totally irrelevant to Apple's decision making process. They're issues for Irl inc. to deal with and if we can't or won't deliver the power to their door, they won't be interested in proceeding. And if we do get the 13Bn, they won't be much interested in it then either.

So, its not about a single thing! Its about all the things that are bubbling away like in a home- made soup. Apple simply doesn't like the stuff that was put into the soup and they prefer both the flavour of the Danish version and the way the Danes chop up their carrots. Hence, the Danes get the go-ahead to start another phase.

Oh, and of course, our Data Protection Regime, whose light touch would have previously been considered to be a big benefit to a Data Centre here is having to step up its own game to conform to EU & US (Patriot Act) law, probably removing much of the previously considered benefit to Apple of locating its data here.

One bottom line in all this however is that there does need to be a much more strategic approach to infrastructure (including electrical grid) in this country including zoning for industry across the country and not just in the main Urban centres, before the rest of the country dies a slow death and becomes a set of dormitory towns & villages for the 3 or 4 main centres in which all the industry will locate.

2 quick things Tom.

First, this mythical €13b has never and will never be "ours". The EU want us to claim this €13b, put it into an escrow account and then divy it up amongst the other EU countries where this tax was originally liable. Well, I say sod the EU and if other countries feel they are due monies from Apple then they can damn we'll get it themselves. Why should we do their dirty work for them when as a whole they were mighty quick to throw the Irish citizens under the bus to pay back banking debts.

Second, I absolutely agree that we need to develop areas outside of the main urban areas such as Dublin and Cork. However, how can we achieve this when at every opportunity to do this projects get shot down repeatedly. Grid West was buried by local protestor's. That is the problem in a nutshell and indicative of the issues facing development outside of main urban areas. Until this massive issue addressed then the rest is mere window dressing.

kravmaga

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Great news! Finally.

Whats the great news dude??

Apple have not committed to this project even with Leo's visit to Tim Cook in California.

kravmaga

L.Jenkins wrote: »

Talk about a massive fúck up on Irish planning laws if they don't go through with development. Is it definitive that Apple won't proceed? If not, will there be a witch hunt for objectors and others who failed to help proceedings along I wonder?

€850 million is not something to turn our noses up at. It's no so little that we can refuse on a whim.

Only 2 objectors whose name are already in the public domain.