Schools Rugby 2017 2018 Thread SEE MOD WARNING POST #1773

irishfan9

Ayewserious wrote: »

Best long term prospect yes. Hawkshaw best player by some distance at the moment

how is he a better long term prospect?

both are realistically undersized at pro level and will always be so.

MDunne14

irishfan9 wrote: »

how is he a better long term prospect?

both are realistically undersized at pro level and will always be so.

Penny is one of the most physical players around at u19 and is about 6ft1/ wouldn’t say he’s undersized at pro level , hawkshaw isn’t a far better player at the moment if u watch penny he’s so good just doesn’t get the attention/praise that a 10 does

irishfan9

MDunne14 wrote: »

Penny is one of the most physical players around at u19 and is about 6ft1/ wouldn’t say he’s undersized at pro level , hawkshaw isn’t a far better player at the moment if u watch penny he’s so good just doesn’t get the attention/praise that a 10 does

i rate penny highly but not sure you can say he is a better long term prospect than hawkshaw.

certainly a top prospect.

6elieve

irishfan9 wrote: »

i rate penny highly but not sure you can say he is a better long term prospect than hawkshaw.

certainly a top prospect.

Agreed, penny tends to go missing come Cup time whereas Hawkshaw excels

Noscrumnowin

C3PO wrote: »

Would it make sense to have a league system that all schools play in with qualifiers playing quarters, semis and then a final similar to Champions Cup?

What so that Belvo, Rock and Michaels can walk it every year to bar the odd exception.

Ayewserious

irishfan9 wrote: »

i rate penny highly but not sure you can say he is a better long term prospect than hawkshaw.

certainly a top prospect.

Just my opinion

The Lost Sheep

Noscrumnowin wrote: »

What so that Belvo, Rock and Michaels can walk it every year to bar the odd exception.

They wouldnt and a league system would provide more games and you could have other competitions/finals to give others a chance at silverware as well as the top side

Jokesonyou61

Anyone think that there will be an upset in the first round?

Michaels - terrenure / Michaels 7 points
Gerards - Fintans / Gerards 35 points
Belvedere- gonzaga/ Belvedere15 points
Roscrea- Vinnie Murray/roscrea 20 points
Andrews- Mary's / Mary's 17/21 points
Black Rock-Castleknock / knock 3 points
Pres / Newbridge/ Newbridge 13 points
Vinnie Murray- clongowes/ clongowes 18 points

irishfan9

Jokesonyou61 wrote: »

Patrick Nixon is very overrated,

why do you say that?

he didnt make the leinster u19 interpro squad so

irishfan9

Jokesonyou61 wrote: »

Anyone think that there will be an upset in the first round?

Michaels - terrenure / Michaels 7 points
Gerards - Fintans / Gerards 35 points
Belvedere- gonzaga/ Belvedere15 points
Roscrea- Vinnie Murray/roscrea 20 points
Andrews- Mary's / Mary's 17/21 points
Black Rock-Castleknock / knock 3 points
Pres / Newbridge/ Newbridge 13 points
Vinnie Murray- clongowes/ clongowes 18 points

Michaels
Gerards
Belvedere
Roscrea
Marys
Blackrock
Neevridge
Clongowes

best chance of upset is Zaga i think.

MDunne14

irishfan9 wrote: »

why do you say that?

he didnt make the leinster u19 interpro squad so

Not sure he’s rated by many , doesn’t start for greystones u20

Jokesonyou61

irishfan9 wrote: »

Michaels
Gerards
Belvedere
Roscrea
Marys
Blackrock
Neevridge
Clongowes

best chance of upset is Zaga i think.

People say Fintans have a chance but I don't see it.

Zaga won't be strong enough for Belvedere. Belvedere backs will be the deciding factor that will win them the match

Ally Bren 92

Wouldn’t be too surprised if burr beat michaels.la grue,dardis,Henry Hayes are quality in the backs

Jokesonyou61

irishfan9 wrote: »

why do you say that?

he didnt make the leinster u19 interpro squad so

I with deleted this post, I am not going to follow it up.

Jokesonyou61

Ally Bren 92 wrote: »

Wouldn’t be too surprised if burr beat michaels.la grue,dardis,Henry Hayes are quality in the backs

I can't see it will be a cracker of a game

Jokesonyou61

MDunne14 wrote: »

Not sure he’s rated by many , doesn’t start for greystones u20

Was meant to be the best hooker at u18 level then I watched a final where he was playing in Clontarf and didn't impress, maybe because he was jut bigger than everyone 2 years ago

Jokesonyou61

Can anyone see Fintans beating Gerards?

irishfan9

MDunne14 wrote: »

Not sure he’s rated by many , doesn’t start for greystones u20

yeah i wouldnt rate him massively...

can think of several hookers at u19 level.id rate higher.

irishfan9

Ally Bren 92 wrote: »

Wouldn’t be too surprised if burr beat michaels.la grue,dardis,Henry Hayes are quality in the backs

they dont have the pack...

irishfan9

Jokesonyou61 wrote: »

People say Fintans have a chance but I don't see it.

Zaga won't be strong enough for Belvedere. Belvedere backs will be the deciding factor that will win them the match

probably not but they have best chance for me

Jokesonyou61

irishfan9 wrote: »

yeah i wouldnt rate him massively...

can think of several hookers at u19 level.id rate higher.

Don't rate Baxter either,

Moloney is excellent also Adamson is very good

irishfan9

Jokesonyou61 wrote: »

Don't rate Baxter either,

Moloney is excellent also Adamson is very good

why not?

Bergin appears to be the highest rated hooker at u19 level.

Jokesonyou61

irishfan9 wrote: »

why not?

Bergin appears to be the highest rated hooker at u19 level.

I've watched league games this year and he hasn't stood out, very good defensively. In attack non existent. Doesn't throw for school Gerards have a dodgy small enough hooker (not naming) I just don't think he's as good as people are making him out to be

irishfan9

Jokesonyou61 wrote: »

I've watched league games this year and he hasn't stood out, very good defensively. In attack non existent. Doesn't throw for school Gerards have a dodgy small enough hooker (not naming) I just don't think he's as good as people are making him out to be

fair enough to have that opinion i guess.. he was a standout for leinster schools in the interpros

Jokesonyou61

irishfan9 wrote: »

fair enough to have that opinion i guess.. he was a standout for leinster schools in the interpros

Oh right, infairness to him he hasn't played hooker for Gerards all season they've had the small guy playing there instead they must be trying to play Baxter in the most influential role possible

ruggersfan

I would rate Baxter over everyone bar Moloney... Baxter throwing under pressure with inter-pros was superb and he plays like a back row as a hooker and that's perfect for the way to game is going, unfortunately, he is playing 7/8 this year in gerards because they want him on the ball.
regarding his attacking prowess I completely disagree, he was top try scorer for his province at hooker that has something to say.

no matter what the case is we will find out how he does under the limelight against fintans

Cody OHare

Is there anywhere where I can see the dates for the Leinster SCT QF, SF & Final? Or do they choose them after every round?

clsmooth

It's mad how much Marys have dropped off this decade as during the 90s and 2000's they were usually getting to the semis most years and had some cracking talent. I assume the school hasn't focused on and invested in rugby to the same level that schools like Michaels seem to have over the past 10 years (with great results).

FrannoFan

clsmooth wrote: »

It's mad how much Marys have dropped off this decade as during the 90s and 2000's they were usually getting to the semis most years and had some cracking talent. I assume the school hasn't focused on and invested in rugby to the same level that schools like Michaels seem to have over the past 10 years (with great results).

They would invest quite a bit in rugby still. they have attempted hiring new directors of rugby without much success.
I would think that since Gonzaga stopped having an entrance exam and had a more open access policy children in a similar catchment opted for there more than marys.
There has been a change of management at primary level and not sure same emphasis on rugby being placed there.

also it is something of a numbers game. What do Marys have?450? quite small compared to Rock/Belvo (1200) or Michaels (660)

Inspector Coptoor

Cody OHare wrote: »

Is there anywhere where I can see the dates for the Leinster SCT QF, SF & Final? Or do they choose them after every round?

2nd round and semis will be fixed after each preceding round concludes.

SCT final is Sunday 18th March in RDS

FrannoFan wrote: »

They would invest quite a bit in rugby still. they have attempted hiring new directors of rugby without much success.
I would think that since Gonzaga stopped having an entrance exam and had a more open access policy children in a similar catchment opted for there more than marys.
There has been a change of management at primary level and not sure same emphasis on rugby being placed there.

also it is something of a numbers game. What do Marys have?450? quite small compared to Rock/Belvo (1200) or Michaels (660)

Rock has 200 per year
Belvo has 168 per year
Michael’s 110
Zaga 92
Mary’s 75

6elieve

FrannoFan wrote: »

They would invest quite a bit in rugby still. they have attempted hiring new directors of rugby without much success.
I would think that since Gonzaga stopped having an entrance exam and had a more open access policy children in a similar catchment opted for there more than marys.
There has been a change of management at primary level and not sure same emphasis on rugby being placed there.

also it is something of a numbers game. What do Marys have?450? quite small compared to Rock/Belvo (1200) or Michaels (660)

Only 67 people in this years 6th years for marys

dubal

Interesting to see will this impact Terenure, they added an extra class in 1st year about 3 years ago.

stellenbosch

dubal wrote: »

Interesting to see will this impact Terenure, they added an extra class in 1st year about 3 years ago.

Nure junior school closing and a large GAA influence in the senior school now-wonder will those impact Nure and rugby going forward

clsmooth

dubal wrote: »

Interesting to see will this impact Terenure, they added an extra class in 1st year about 3 years ago.

Who was Terenure’s last international? It can’t be Girvan Dempsey can it?

stellenbosch

clsmooth wrote: »

Who was Terenure’s last international? It can’t be Girvan Dempsey can it?

It was and last great hopes were Dardis and Brewer who were ditched by Leinster - currently no Nure player in the academy..Heffernan is Nure club not Nure school..

prawnsambo

clsmooth wrote: »

Who was Terenure’s last international? It can’t be Girvan Dempsey can it?

Think so. Struggling to remember if he's the last Leinster player from there too,

Straw Hats

FrannoFan wrote: »

They would invest quite a bit in rugby still. they have attempted hiring new directors of rugby without much success.
I would think that since Gonzaga stopped having an entrance exam and had a more open access policy children in a similar catchment opted for there more than marys.
There has been a change of management at primary level and not sure same emphasis on rugby being placed there.

also it is something of a numbers game. What do Marys have?450? quite small compared to Rock/Belvo (1200) or Michaels (660)

There isn't a huge number of teenagers living in Dublin 6. You would probably have to go back to the 60's. Then lads would walk to Mary's and Zaga, but not so much anymore. Lots of them are commuting from quite far out. Doesn't help when you want early am training sessions.

Belvo, Zaga and others have expanded in recent decades. I don't think Mary's have.

They should, it's one of the most over subscribed schools in Dublin.

irishfan9

stellenbosch wrote: »

It was and last great hopes were Dardis and Brewer who were ditched by Leinster - currently no Nure player in the academy..Heffernan is Nure club not Nure school..

Sam Dardis next great hope.

FrannoFan

Marys struggles are easily explained on numbers but what is going on in terenure?

Big numbers. Great grounds. Links with the club.

Amazing no one since girve coming out of there

clsmooth

FrannoFan wrote: »

Marys struggles are easily explained on numbers but what is going on in terenure?

Big numbers. Great grounds. Links with the club.

Amazing no one since girve coming out of there

Thing is Marys have always had those numbers and still punched above their weight. Terenure, I have no idea. They closed their junior school years ago right? Has that had an effect? Michaels don’t have a junior school either? Gonzaga got rid of theirs years ago too

D14Rugby

Straw Hats wrote: »

There isn't a huge number of teenagers living in Dublin 6. You would probably have to go back to the 60's. Then lads would walk to Mary's and Zaga, but not so much anymore. Lots of them are commuting from quite far out. Doesn't help when you want early am training sessions.

Belvo, Zaga and others have expanded in recent decades. I don't think Mary's have.

They should, it's one of the most over subscribed schools in Dublin.

The Rathmines, Rathgar, Harolds Cross, Terenure, Templeogue, Terenure, Churchtown, etc areas that schools like Marys, Terenure and a few other schools have drawn from traditionally had aged considerably over the last few years so student have been coming from further out and thus less likely to want to/ be able to commit to before and after school training which has obviously affected the schools rugby performance. In theory those areas should cycle around soon and students should be coming from closer in so more likely to play rugby and then the knock on effect will occur.

Marys expansion probably could be hindered by the really small site they have that's completely boxed in.

stellenbosch wrote: »

It was and last great hopes were Dardis and Brewer who were ditched by Leinster - currently no Nure player in the academy..Heffernan is Nure club not Nure school..

Worth pointing out Brewer left the academy so that he could go back to the back row, a small but pretty important detail in the context.


I'm not sure how big an impact it'd have but it seems Terenure and Marys are pretty bad at raising funds compared to the likes of Michaels, Rock, Belvo, etc which could impact their player production.
On that theme, any news on Rock's 4G pitch plans?

Granny15

Michaels have a Junior school as do MAry's and Rock.

Don't know about Zaga JS.

I think the numbers for Michaels are off also - closer to 90 per year = about 540 pupils

D14Rugby

Granny15 wrote: »

Michaels have a Junior school as do MAry's and Rock.

Don't know about Zaga JS.

I think the numbers for Michaels are off also - closer to 90 per year = about 540 pupils

A quick Google days there are 636 pupils in Michaels

themont85

Figures from Educate.ie for Dublin schools. I think the ones outside the Pale have different characteristics to them, particularly boarding. I could have included Newbridge but didn’t. I left out Templeogue, DeLa Salle, Pauls and High School. They don’t really figure in the Senior Leagues as much these days. Junior school, mixed, other main sport and boarders noted.

St Gerards: 350 (58) JS, mixed

St Marys: 443 (74) JS

CBC: 450 (75) JS

CUS: 469 (78), JS

Wesley: 498 (83), mixed, other sport

St Andrews: 502 (84) JS, mixed, other sport

Gonzaga: 552 (92)

St Michaels: 636 (109) JS

Castleknock: 644 (107)

Pres Bray: 651 (109), no fees

Terenure: 690 (110), JS which is closing

St Fintans: 702 (117), other sport (s), no fees

Belvedere: 1011 (169)

Blackrock College: 1014 over 5 years (203), JS, boarders

There’s one school there who have it all – a Junior School, some boarders and the numbers. It’s obvious while they’re successful, before you even appreciate the history and what that can do to aid you.

Numbers are clearly important to be consistently successful. These days from that list you can only put Blackrock, Belvedere and Michaels there. Terenure are still decent, if not what they once were. It’s clearly not the be all and end all though to be a success. Castleknock have expanded their numbers a lot. I would guess their locality would mean they are getting a lot of people from near the Dublin border now, so not necessarily with a rugby background. Castleknock used to be boarding so I guess you have to appreciate that the characteristics of the pupils have changed a good bit in 30 years. Pres Bray are large but clearly fell off. The Junior School closing there in the early 90s did not help them. They weren’t the force they should have been in the 60s/70s/80s at SCT level which suggests finance was an issue there but always were strong at JCT. Fintans are newbies with other sports embedded.

After that to my mind you have a huge cluster of schools in the 400-600 pupil range, who all compete strong on occasion but not consistently anymore. Andrews and Wesley have a gror hockey to. Gerards clearly punch above their pupil weight – it’s likely they can only field 2 teams at first and second year level while anyone north of them should be able to get at least 3, the fact that they have outperformed a lot of those above them is a credit to them.

Junior schools I used to think were very important but perhaps not as much as before. Belvedere and Gonzaga’s closed in the 90s and both are as good, if not better than they were. But both took in greater numbers at senior level. Junior schools don’t seem to be impacting the Marys, CBCs and Terenures like they used to – perhaps that is down to more people playing minis now at clubs. The point about Marys pupils travelling longer is a good one but it there won’t be that many in Michaels either I would guess.

CBC are going to move up the pupil ranks again soon with their school redeveloped and them taking numbers in again. The average is misleading big time there, there’s only 50 in 6th year but around 100 in each of first and second year. But it’s no guarantee of success at all.

themont85

Granny15 wrote: »

Michaels have a Junior school as do MAry's and Rock.

Don't know about Zaga JS.

I think the numbers for Michaels are off also - closer to 90 per year = about 540 pupils

Gonzaga JS closed down nearly 20 years ago, as did Belvedere’s. The Jesuits weren’t in the business of junior school education anymore.

Granny15

themont85 wrote: »

Gonzaga JS closed down nearly 20 years ago, as did Belvedere’s. The Jesuits weren’t in the business of junior school education anymore.

You'd have to think they will lose something rugby wise not only from the kids playing at a younger age but also representing the school at a young age.

The biggest loss is the kids going to Donnybrook to see the Senior school pupils play and trying to emulate those older pupils every weekend of their lives from the age of 4.

It embeds in them a lifetimes pursuit towards a goal and representing your school.

Fatnacho

Very few of the students in Belvedere would come from the vicinity of D1. Not having an on-site playing pitch is another disadvantage they have to overcome. A lot of time and funds are wasted shipping everyone up and down to Distillery Rd and Cabra.

stellenbosch

themont85 wrote: »

Figures from Educate.ie for Dublin schools. I think the ones outside the Pale have different characteristics to them, particularly boarding. I could have included Newbridge but didn’t. I left out Templeogue, DeLa Salle, Pauls and High School. They don’t really figure in the Senior Leagues as much these days. Junior school, mixed, other main sport and boarders noted.

St Gerards: 350 (58) JS, mixed

St Marys: 443 (74) JS

CBC: 450 (75) JS

CUS: 469 (78), JS

Wesley: 498 (83), mixed, other sport

St Andrews: 502 (84) JS, mixed, other sport

Gonzaga: 552 (92)

St Michaels: 636 (109) JS

Castleknock: 644 (107)

Pres Bray: 651 (109), no fees

Terenure: 690 (110), JS which is closing

St Fintans: 702 (117), other sport (s), no fees

Belvedere: 1011 (169)

Blackrock College: 1014 over 5 years (203), JS, boarders

There’s one school there who have it all – a Junior School, some boarders and the numbers. It’s obvious while they’re successful, before you even appreciate the history and what that can do to aid you.

Numbers are clearly important to be consistently successful. These days from that list you can only put Blackrock, Belvedere and Michaels there. Terenure are still decent, if not what they once were. It’s clearly not the be all and end all though to be a success. Castleknock have expanded their numbers a lot. I would guess their locality would mean they are getting a lot of people from near the Dublin border now, so not necessarily with a rugby background. Castleknock used to be boarding so I guess you have to appreciate that the characteristics of the pupils have changed a good bit in 30 years. Pres Bray are large but clearly fell off. The Junior School closing there in the early 90s did not help them. They weren’t the force they should have been in the 60s/70s/80s at SCT level which suggests finance was an issue there but always were strong at JCT. Fintans are newbies with other sports embedded.

After that to my mind you have a huge cluster of schools in the 400-600 pupil range, who all compete strong on occasion but not consistently anymore. Andrews and Wesley have a gror hockey to. Gerards clearly punch above their pupil weight – it’s likely they can only field 2 teams at first and second year level while anyone north of them should be able to get at least 3, the fact that they have outperformed a lot of those above them is a credit to them.

Junior schools I used to think were very important but perhaps not as much as before. Belvedere and Gonzaga’s closed in the 90s and both are as good, if not better than they were. But both took in greater numbers at senior level. Junior schools don’t seem to be impacting the Marys, CBCs and Terenures like they used to – perhaps that is down to more people playing minis now at clubs. The point about Marys pupils travelling longer is a good one but it there won’t be that many in Michaels either I would guess.

CBC are going to move up the pupil ranks again soon with their school redeveloped and them taking numbers in again. The average is misleading big time there, there’s only 50 in 6th year but around 100 in each of first and second year. But it’s no guarantee of success at all.

Some very valid points there

CBC JCT were unbeaten in their league section and lost narrowly in a replay in the qtr finals. Roscrea lost narrowly in the final to Castleknock who CBC had drawn with in league. Interestingly CBC JCT beat Clongowes today 21-10 in a friendly pre cup - game was in Clongowes.

Straw Hats

Fatnacho wrote: »

Very few of the students in Belvedere would come from the vicinity of D1. Not having an on-site playing pitch is another disadvantage they have to overcome. A lot of time and funds are wasted shipping everyone up and down to Distillery Rd and Cabra.

Yeah but they all have similar problems. I can't think of any private school where the majority would walk door to door.
You have to admire the dedication of these lads. How many days a week do they train nowadays?

themont85

Fatnacho wrote: »

Very few of the students in Belvedere would come from the vicinity of D1. Not having an on-site playing pitch is another disadvantage they have to overcome. A lot of time and funds are wasted shipping everyone up and down to Distillery Rd and Cabra.

It’s one disadvantage. It’s not unique to them though, CUS have a similar issue.

Costs is a relative thing- it ignores fee levels, costs of capital et cetera.

I would say having nearly double the amount of pupils that most in the comp do to pick from far overrides any such disadvantage.