So it's the 12th of July tomorrow. Will the North ever not be sectarian?

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

To piss off the 'taigs' obviously.

Only 'taigs' are LGBT?

Heard it all now.

No. They do it for different reasons. Most Unionists don't care about this issue.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

No. They do it for different reasons. Most Unionists don't care about this issue.

I am sure the LGBT unionists care very deeply about these issues.

And a wee lesson for you here: you do not govern just to cater for what you care about. You govern for all.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

No. They do it for different reasons. Most Unionists don't care about this issue.

I am sure the LGBT unionists care very deeply about these issues.

And a wee lesson for you here: you do not govern just to cater for what you care about. You govern for all.

Who wrote that rule?

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Who wrote that rule?

Have a look at what 'democracy' means. You may need to sit down.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Who wrote that rule?

Have a look at what 'democracy' means. You may need to sit down.

Democracy doesn't mean you have to please everyone all of the time or lay out policies for everyone. You govern by doing what you believe in. By that mere fact alone it means you won't be governing for everyone.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Democracy doesn't mean you have to please everyone all of the time or lay out policies for everyone. You govern by doing what you believe in. By that mere fact alone it means you won't be governing for everyone.

As I said...you clearly need to understand democracy.

Denial of fundamental rights is not 'democracy'. Unionists have always confused democracy with autocracy. That is why the sectarian state they ran failed so cataclysmically.

It will fail again unless they learn the lesson.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Democracy doesn't mean you have to please everyone all of the time or lay out policies for everyone. You govern by doing what you believe in. By that mere fact alone it means you won't be governing for everyone.

As I said...you clearly need to understand democracy.

Denial of fundamental rights is not 'democracy'. Unionists have always confused democracy with autocracy. That is why the sectarian state they ran failed so cataclysmically.

It will fail again unless they learn the lesson.

The DUP are elected to do what they think is in the interests of the people who voted for them. We do not and won't have an executive again but that is for a different thread.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

The DUP are elected to do what they think is in the interests of the people who voted for them.

So, back we go.

Religious fundamentalists ordaining that everybody lives like them.

Chester Copperpot

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Only 'taigs' are LGBT?

Heard it all now.

Indeed and Ian Paisley Jr would definitely dispute that

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

The DUP are elected to do what they think is in the interests of the people who voted for them. We do not and won't have an executive again but that is for a different thread.

No they didn't look at the documentary. Their voters are amongst the poorest in the UK.

bodhrandude

No it isn't its almost a month ahead, check your calendar it should say August 10th.

steddyeddy

In this sense Brexit is a good thing. The North is going to have major economic problems once they leave the single market. This might be the wake up call people need to get on with real lofe problems and not whether their neighbour is black or Catholic.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

In this sense Brexit is a good thing. The North is going to have major economic problems once they leave the single market. This might be the wake up call people need to get on with real lofe problems and not whether their neighbour is black or Catholic.

I truly believe we are approaching the end of Northern Ireland.
A round of austerity the like of which has never been seen before will change things fundamentally.

steddyeddy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I truly believe we are approaching the end of Northern Ireland.
A round of austerity the like of which has never been seen before will change things fundamentally.

There is no way Northern Ireland can exist after Brexit.

Sofiztikated

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Only 'taigs' are LGBT?

Heard it all now.

No, but to a lot of Loyalists, the "taigs" in the "South" voted with LGBT, and opened up marriage to all.

So fuck you if you're LGBT.

A Little Pony wrote: »

The DUP are elected to do what they think is in the interests of the people who voted for them. We do not and won't have an executive again but that is for a different thread.

The DUP are elected to do the best for the people of NI, not just their little base. The will of THE people, not YOUR people.

I also see Willie Frazier is having a field day, because fuckwits got involved in the Nationalist march and bonfires, with slogans and (i think) a mock up of him. It was rather funny to see a comment regarding the actual construction of the bonfire, to be fair it was shit, and an invite to see how a real one is built.

Tit for tat bolix has gone FAR too long. Both sides are guilt of it. Them'uns, them'uns, them'uns. And yes, I do know Nationalists get it so constantly, that it's hard to continuously turn the other cheek, but talk about playing RIGHT into someones hand!?

Junkyard Tom

armaghlad wrote: »

So basically they vote en masse for a party that will do nothing for them so that a party from the other side won't hold power; and then wonder why they are constantly "left behind".

The six counties rank about 44th in the HDI while Ireland ranks at 8th (UK 16th).

No only are 'fur-coat Unionist' politicians doing nothing for their more impoverished voters (Arlene's collection of handbags is probably worth more than one of their houses) they're playing sectarian headcount politics that they're destined to lose. As Sofiztikated has mentioned above

Sofiztikated wrote: »

talk about playing RIGHT into someones hand!?

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

In this sense Brexit is a good thing. The North is going to have major economic problems once they leave the single market. This might be the wake up call people need to get on with real lofe problems and not whether their neighbour is black or Catholic.

I truly believe we are approaching the end of Northern Ireland.
A round of austerity the like of which has never been seen before will change things fundamentally.

We will revisit this thread in 10 years and I guarantee nothing will have changed.

Sofiztikated wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Only 'taigs' are LGBT?

Heard it all now.

No, but to a lot of Loyalists, the "taigs" in the "South" voted with LGBT, and opened up marriage to all.

So fuck you if you're LGBT.

A Little Pony wrote: »

The DUP are elected to do what they think is in the interests of the people who voted for them. We do not and won't have an executive again but that is for a different thread.

The DUP are elected to do the best for the people of NI, not just their little base.  The will of THE people, not YOUR people.

I also see Willie Frazier is having a field day, because fuckwits got involved in the Nationalist march and bonfires, with slogans and (i think) a mock up of him.  It was rather funny to see a comment regarding the actual construction of the bonfire, to be fair it was shit, and an invite to see how a real one is built.

Tit for tat bolix has gone FAR too long.  Both sides are guilt of it.  Them'uns, them'uns, them'uns.  And yes, I do know Nationalists get it so constantly, that it's hard to continuously turn the other cheek, but talk about playing RIGHT into someones hand!?

But it isn't a little base, they are the party of Unionism right now and have been for a long time. As you seen in that small documentary a lot of Unionists aren't really conservative unfortunately but it makes no difference to who they vote for.

steddyeddy wrote: »

In this sense Brexit is a good thing. The North is going to have major economic problems once they leave the single market. This might be the wake up call people need to get on with real lofe problems and not whether their neighbour is black or Catholic.

Most people didn't vote Brexit for economic reasons. The benefits of Brexit economically won't be felt for at least 10-15 years.

A Little Pony

A Little Pony wrote: »

Most people didn't vote Brexit for economic reasons. The benefits of Brexit economically won't be felt for at least 10-15 years.

I'd agree that if there are economic benefits to Brexit, they won't be felt for 15 years.

I'm somewhat puzzled at your certainty about those benefits, though.
Realistically speaking, no-one can predict the economic mis/fortunes of an area 15 years in advance.

What is very easy to predict, however, is that, in the event of Britain crashing out of the EU without a decent trade and customs deal, economic misfortune will certainly follow.

10-15 years of austerity will try the patience of any party's followers.
Add the changing demographic, as older voters die, to be replaced by today's children - and the only prediction I'm willing to make for Northern Ireland is that there will undoubtedly be a huge change in attitudes there.

Struggling to keep a roof over your head, and food on the table, has a way of making people concentrate on the important issues in life, as opposed to historic rivalries.

Time, and economics, together with the perception of which party best represents the majority of voters in NI will decide it's fate - not the personal beliefs of politicians.

The day when politicians talked down to voters, and told them what to do is gone, thankfully.
That's a lesson that a lot of politicians worldwide should have learned from various "shock" election results.

It might take a few more "shocks" before it sinks in, though.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd agree that if there are economic benefits to Brexit, they won't be felt for 15 years.

I'm somewhat puzzled at your certainty about those benefits, though.
Realistically speaking, no-one can predict the economic mis/fortunes of an area 15 years in advance.

What is very easy to predict, however, is that, in the event of Britain crashing out of the EU without a decent trade and customs deal, economic misfortune will certainly follow.

10-15 years of austerity will try the patience of any party's followers.
Add the changing demographic, as older voters die, to be replaced by today's children - and the only prediction I'm willing to make for Northern Ireland is that there will undoubtedly be a huge change in attitudes there.

Struggling to keep a roof over your head, and food on the table, has a way of making people concentrate on the important issues in life, as opposed to historic rivalries.

Time, and economics, together with the perception of which party best represents the majority of voters in NI will decide it's fate - not the personal beliefs of politicians.

The day when politicians talked down to voters, and told them what to do is gone, thankfully.
That's a lesson that a lot of politicians worldwide should have learned from various "shock" election results.

It might take a few more "shocks" before it sinks in, though.

Brexit will change the DUP more than any other party.

Real austerity in northern Ireland will chip away at their base vote as their base vote will be the most affected.
I see a move back to the UUP (if they can capitalise) and the DUP (the Never Never Never, Well Maybe Party) will swallow hard and allow all the LGBT rights and move on the Iriah language just to hold power (cling on) as Brexit bites hard.

A Little Pony

A Little Pony wrote: »

The benefits of Brexit economically won't be felt for at least 10-15 years.

The Brexiteers message that the UK will benefit from it carries as much credibility as claiming as fact that theres a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

bilston

steddyeddy wrote: »

In this sense Brexit is a good thing. The North is going to have major economic problems once they leave the single market. This might be the wake up call people need to get on with real lofe problems and not whether their neighbour is black or Catholic.

I think you'll find the vast vast majority of people in Northern Ireland already think like this.

gooch2k9

bilston wrote: »

I think you'll find the vast vast majority of people in Northern Ireland already think like this.

The silent majority unfortunately...or at least the quieter one.

bilston

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Brexit will change the DUP more than any other party.

Real austerity in northern Ireland will chip away at their base vote as their base vote will be the most affected.

If, as you clearly suggest, austerity just affects the north coast then they might still get enough votes as the rest of Northern Ireland will obviously be unaffected in your scenario.

bilston

gooch2k9 wrote: »

The silent majority unfortunately...or at least the quieter one.

Well those with views that stray from the norm tend to get more of a spotlight placed on them.

FrancieBrady

bilston wrote: »

If, as you clearly suggest, austerity just affects the north coast then they might still get enough votes as the rest of Northern Ireland will obviously be unaffected in your scenario.

I clearly suggested the north coast?

steddyeddy

bilston wrote: »

I think you'll find the vast vast majority of people in Northern Ireland already think like this.

Except the DUP are in power....

bilston

People vote for the DUP to keep SF out, not because they particularly like the DUP manifesto. Its the lesser of two evils for Unionists.

Remove the DUP and Sinn Fein from Northern Irish politics and the place would be a lot happier.

FrancieBrady

bilston wrote: »

People vote for the DUP to keep SF out, not because they particularly like the DUP manifesto. Its the lesser of two evils for Unionists.

Remove the DUP and Sinn Fein from Northern Irish politics and the place would be a lot happier.

Why don't 'they' vote for the UUP?


That sentiment is just a handy crutch. A core part of the DUP vote is coming from a remnant of good old fashioned sectarian bigotry. Arlene addresses that core all the time.

bilston

FrancieBrady wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

People vote for the DUP to keep SF out, not because they particularly like the DUP manifesto. Its the lesser of two evils for Unionists.

Remove the DUP and Sinn Fein from Northern Irish politics and the place would be a lot happier.

Why don't 'they' vote for the UUP?


That sentiment is just a handy crutch. A core part of the DUP vote is coming from a remnant of good old fashioned sectarian bigotry. Arlene addresses that core all the time.

Because the UUP have no chance of winning. The DUPs main message is vote for us or else Sinn Fein will get in and it works.

I've little doubt there is a core of DUP that do believe in their values but I don't think they are a massively big group of people. People like that exist pretty much everywhere anyway. They aren't exclusive to Northern Ireland.

By the way if your use of the word 'they' appears to suggest you think I'm a DUP voter. Interesting.

FrancieBrady

bilston wrote: »

Because the UUP have no chance of winning. The DUPs main message is vote for us or else Sinn Fein will get in and it works.

I've little doubt there is a core of DUP that do believe in their values but I don't think they are a massively big group of people. People like that exist pretty much everywhere anyway. They aren't exclusive to Northern Ireland.

By the way if your use of the word 'they' appears to suggest you think I'm a DUP voter. Interesting.

If they are not a 'massively big group' then the others would easily elect the UUP.
I have seen people bend themselves out of shape on here about SF's vote in the same way.
It is a rather patronising way to treat electorates.

I have no idea what your last sentence is about. I used inverted commas to highlight the specific people you were referencing.

steddyeddy

bilston wrote: »

Because the UUP have no chance of winning. The DUPs main message is vote for us or else Sinn Fein will get in and it works.

I've little doubt there is a core of DUP that do believe in their values but I don't think they are a massively big group of people. People like that exist pretty much everywhere anyway. They aren't exclusive to Northern Ireland.

By the way if your use of the word 'they' appears to suggest you think I'm a DUP voter. Interesting.

This is what I want to explain to DUP voters. It doesn't work. When you vote for the DUP you always get Sinn Fein. This is a fact. I don't know why they keep falling for that.

bilston

steddyeddy wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Because the UUP have no chance of winning. The DUPs main message is vote for us or else Sinn Fein will get in and it works.

I've little doubt there is a core of DUP that do believe in their values but I don't think they are a massively big group of people. People like that exist pretty much everywhere anyway. They aren't exclusive to Northern Ireland.

By the way if your use of the word 'they' appears to suggest you think I'm a DUP voter. Interesting.

This is what I want yo explain to DUP voters. It doesn't work. When you vote for the DUP you always get Sinn Fein. This is a fact. I don't know why they keep falling for that.

If I understand you correctly I'd say it works both ways. That's why I think NI would be better off without either party.

Brexit will change everything in NI. I know plenty of what you'd call moderate Unionists (not the DUP core, we've been talking about obviously) who for the first time are openly asking the question "would a United Ireland actually be a better option now?" The problem is the answer is "it may not be so bad, but then SF would win"... and that isn't something Unionists can really accept, or at least are anywhere near ready to accepting.

Perhaps when the current generation of SF are gone, the likes of Adams and Kelly, then that attitude may change.

But that's what I mean you say vote DUP you get SF, the same is true in reverse.

In answer to the original OP from a month ago. Sectarianism could be eradicated in NI in 40 years with one solution....compulsory integrated education for every single child in Northern Ireland...my kids go to an integrated school and so far anyway (they are admittedly only 6 and 4) they don't have a sectarian bone in their body, in fact they have no idea sectarianism even exists. I reckon if you went to sone parts of Belfast 6 year olds are sadly already aware that a divide exists.

A Little Pony

steddyeddy wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Because the UUP have no chance of winning. The DUPs main message is vote for us or else Sinn Fein will get in and it works.

I've little doubt there is a core of DUP that do believe in their values but I don't think they are a massively big group of people. People like that exist pretty much everywhere anyway. They aren't exclusive to Northern Ireland.

By the way if your use of the word 'they' appears to suggest you think I'm a DUP voter. Interesting.

This is what I want to explain to DUP voters. It doesn't work. When you vote for the DUP you always get Sinn Fein. This is a fact. I don't know why they keep falling for that.

lol that is funny. If you keep voting Sinn Fein you will keep getting the DUP. Both can say that.

A Little Pony

bilston wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Because the UUP have no chance of winning. The DUPs main message is vote for us or else Sinn Fein will get in and it works.

I've little doubt there is a core of DUP that do believe in their values but I don't think they are a massively big group of people. People like that exist pretty much everywhere anyway. They aren't exclusive to Northern Ireland.

By the way if your use of the word 'they' appears to suggest you think I'm a DUP voter. Interesting.

This is what I want yo explain to DUP voters. It doesn't work. When you vote for the DUP you always get Sinn Fein. This is a fact. I don't know why they keep falling for that.

If I understand you correctly I'd say it works both ways. That's why I think NI would be better off without either party.

Brexit will change everything in NI. I know plenty of what you'd call moderate Unionists (not the DUP core, we've been talking about obviously) who for the first time are openly asking the question "would a United Ireland actually be a better option now?" The problem is the answer is "it may not be so bad, but then SF would win"... and that isn't something Unionists can really accept, or at least are anywhere near ready to accepting.

Perhaps when the current generation of SF are gone, the likes of Adams and Kelly, then that attitude may change.

But that's what I mean you say vote DUP you get SF, the same is true in reverse.

In answer to the original OP from a month ago. Sectarianism could be eradicated in NI in 40 years with one solution....compulsory integrated education for every single child in Northern Ireland...my kids go to an integrated school and so far anyway (they are admittedly only 6 and 4) they don't have a sectarian bone in their body, in fact they have no idea sectarianism even exists. I reckon if you went to sone parts of Belfast 6 year olds are sadly already aware that a divide exists.

I live in a rural community which has both sides living side by side, an integrated school and obviously religious schools and I see no sectarian violence and any issues from where I am from. Belfast is not all of Northern Ireland. The vast majority of incidents I see in the news nearly always include Belfast.

FrancieBrady

bilston wrote: »

If I understand you correctly I'd say it works both ways. That's why I think NI would be better off without either party.

Brexit will change everything in NI. I know plenty of what you'd call moderate Unionists (not the DUP core, we've been talking about obviously) who for the first time are openly asking the question "would a United Ireland actually be a better option now?" The problem is the answer is "it may not be so bad, but then SF would win"... and that isn't something Unionists can really accept, or at least are anywhere near ready to accepting.

Perhaps when the current generation of SF are gone, the likes of Adams and Kelly, then that attitude may change.

But that's what I mean you say vote DUP you get SF, the same is true in reverse.

In answer to the original OP from a month ago. Sectarianism could be eradicated in NI in 40 years with one solution....compulsory integrated education for every single child in Northern Ireland...my kids go to an integrated school and so far anyway (they are admittedly only 6 and 4) they don't have a sectarian bone in their body, in fact they have no idea sectarianism even exists. I reckon if you went to sone parts of Belfast 6 year olds are sadly already aware that a divide exists.

You can sideline sectarianism by facing down political parties that enshrine and indulge in it.

There is ONE (may be uncomfortable for unionists to confront this) party who routinely engage in it. We even had a unionist on this thread admit (gleefully) that the DUP engage in rights blocking to 'annoy Taigs'.