Government Capital Spending on Infrastructure

BonnieSituation

thomasj wrote: »

But ask yourself why they object?

The city is a building site over and over again. The disruption is never ending . Look at O'Connell Street! Is this the 3rd time the place has been dug up and a mess.

Personal myopia?

The reason that stuff gets dug up again and again is because of these objections.

So we can't have one grand-arching project that encompasses all improvements.

BonnieSituation

thomasj wrote: »

I'm sure they would have rathered the luas cross-city works were done from the start as would folks that are inconvenienced by the disruption.

They objected to the Luas being built completely in the first place. It was insane!

Look up the Abbey St and Harcourt St complaints.

wordofwarning

zetalambda wrote: »

Metro North is just another vanity project like the port tunnel. Although the 747 gets you from the airport to the city center in 20 minutes so it has it's uses. Dart underground seems like it would benefit a lot more people than MN. People only want a metro because they think that's what all important cities have!

The Port Tunnel is a vanity project? Getting tens of thousands of trucks off the road and making Dublin City less congested makes it useless? One of the reasons why cycling is so popular in Dublin versus 15 years ago is that you won't be taken out of it by a HGV on the quays anyway

I am going to hazard a guess you are from the sticks. As you don't seem to realise that there is a massive amount of people living between the Airport and City. The metro is to serve the hundreds of thousands who live between the Airport and the City with no decent public transport ie the bus is a mess.

Dublin seriously needs to be able to fund its own projects. Dublin will never get anything built when people from outside of it have no clue what they are talking about have such strong opinions on Dublin...

Idbatterim

Dublin seriously needs to be able to fund its own projects. Dublin will never get anything built when people from outside of it have no clue what they are talking about have such strong opinions on Dublin...

agreed. sure everything in london is a vanity project, everything in similar sized and smaller cities in europe with much better infrastructure than here, all vanity projects, those idiot germans, french etc :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub

thomasj wrote: »

I'm sure they would have rathered the luas cross-city works were done from the start as would folks that are inconvenienced by the disruption.

And I'd have preferred that put it in a tunnel in the early 00's like they we going to but what you going to do?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

The IMF were told our economy and the world economy were on the brink of a crash months if not years leading up to 2008. They ignored repeated advice from one of their own and look what happened.

We're now applauding that they're back to "help"? I don't understand it.

By all means they can advise but I would be taking any of their advice with a very large pinch of salt.

BonnieSituation

Idbatterim wrote: »

agreed. sure everything in london is a vanity project, everything in similar sized and smaller cities in europe with much better infrastructure than here, all vanity projects, those idiot germans, french etc :rolleyes:

And the Danes

http://www.metro-report.com/news/metro/single-view/view/odense-light-rail-funding-agreed.html

Odense population: 175,245 (Urban 198,000)

Cork City population: City 125,622 (Urban 208,669, Metro 399,216)

LeinsterDub

Leilani Skinny Gunpoint wrote: »

The IMF were told our economy and the world economy were on the brink of a crash months if not years leading up to 2008. They ignored repeated advice from one of their own and look what happened.

We're now applauding that they're back to "help"? I don't understand it.

By all means they can advise but I would be taking any of their advice with a very large pinch of salt.

Irish governments , successive and continued incorrect prioritization of which project to start (WRC, certain motorways) , incorrect prioritization of which of "cost savings" they should demand (NMN, Luas not underground), incorrect prioritization of which projects to shelf (DU ,MN, M20), incorrect prioritization of when to shelf projects (cheaper during the recession)


IMF didn't listen to one guy, I'll take the IMF.

Poxyshamrock

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why?

I mean it's hardly priority one.

Certainly not a top priority, you're right but was just wondering what the current situation is.

I do believe we need greater speeds on our intercity rail services, particularly Dublin to Cork/Limerick/Belfast.

BonnieSituation

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Certainly not a top priority, you're right but was just wondering what the current situation is.

I do believe we need greater speeds on our intercity rail services, particularly Dublin to Cork/Limerick/Belfast.

Electricity won't do that. Straightening out the line to Cork will obviously help that as will re-signalling on the GNR

LeinsterDub

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Certainly not a top priority, you're right but was just wondering what the current situation is.

I do believe we need greater speeds on our intercity rail services, particularly Dublin to Cork/Limerick/Belfast.

Why do we need it ? We've a fanatic motorway network between most of our major cities and lots of towns now

Why do we need IC rail. what does it deliver over IC buses?

BonnieSituation

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why do we need it ? We've a fanatic motorway network between most of our major cities and lots of towns now

Why do we need IC rail. what does it deliver over IC buses?

This is not the place for this argument.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I don't trust our government either, however the applause given to the IMF being back is worrying IMHO.

The executive board of the IMF is elected more frequently than our government(s).

That 'one guy' came from our own government and had previously been one of our top civil servants. The IMF ignored the warning signs, ignored his reports and we paid the price.

So while I am not a fan of our own government, the IMF are just as fallible.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Irish governments , successive and continued incorrect prioritization of which project to start (WRC, certain motorways) , incorrect prioritization of which of "cost savings" they should demand (NMN, Luas not underground), incorrect prioritization of which projects to shelf (DU ,MN, M20), incorrect prioritization of when to shelf projects (cheaper during the recession)


IMF didn't listen to one guy, I'll take the IMF.

LeinsterDub

Leilani Skinny Gunpoint wrote: »

So while I am not a fan of our own government, the IMF are just as fallible.

Everyone is fallible . That's why we are getting many expert opinions and seeing where the general consensus is.

bk

zetalambda wrote: »

Metro North is just another vanity project like the port tunnel. Although the 747 gets you from the airport to the city center in 20 minutes so it has it's uses. Dart underground seems like it would benefit a lot more people than MN. People only want a metro because they think that's what all important cities have!

zetalambda wrote: »

Swords has the same population as Dundalk. It's just a big town that not many people outside of Dublin will ever have heard of. Common sense will tell you DU should be first. More benefit to more people. I never mentioned anything about it being one or the other. Maybe you're getting me mixed up with another poster? It not my choice!

I'm sorry, but you literally have no idea what you are talking about!

The Port Tunnel wasn't a vanity project!

North Dublin between the river and the M50 is the most densely populated part of the whole of Ireland! Yet until the port tunnel you had large numbers of 18 wheeler trucks driving along city and suburbs streets, right next to schools and houses between the M50 and the Port. It was horrible.

The Port Tunnel completely fixed this issue, removing these dangerous and polluting vehicles from the city streets and now these areas are seeing massive housing and apartment development. In fact the whole docklands developments, Google, Facebook, etc. wouldn't be possible without the Port Tunnel.

As for Metro North, it is incredibly important and frankly much more important then Dart Underground.

MN going to the airport really isn't the main reason for it. It is the cherry on top, the bonus, no the real reason for it is to link Swords to Dublin as others have said.

Swords has a population of 68,000. That makes it the fifth largest urban area in Ireland. Only behind Galway and even ahead of Waterford! In other words Swords is almost a city in it's own right.

Fingal County Council have zoned large amounts of land in Swords for further development with plans for the population to grow to 100,000, which would mean it would surpass Galway's population and might even challenge Limerick!

That shows how insanely large Swords is and the potential is has.

But that development can't go ahead as Swords is a commuter town of Dublin, meaning most people who live in Swords work either in Dublin City or at the Airport and the road between Swords and Dublin is already beyond capacity so it couldn't take another 40,000 people. This is why MN is needed.

BTW Swords is the only urban are in Irelands top 20 that doesn't have any rail based transport, more madness!

Add to all of that, that it will stop at the airport, but that it will also stop at multiple places in north city Dublin, the most densely populated areas which currently have no rail based transport, including DCU, Drumcondra, Croke Park, Mater Hospital, etc. and you see just how good a project it is. Also it will have massive park and rides that will allow people from outside the M50 to park and take the train in.

BTW you are also terribly wrong about Dart Underground. While it too is a very important project, it won't actually serve any areas that don't already have rail based transport! It's purpose is to improve the utilisation of the existing network but it actually won't bring rail to anyone new. MN will bring rail to WAY more new people and new areas then DU will.

It is almost like you are sprouting fake news! The truth is literally the opposite of what you are saying!

BonnieSituation

bk wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you literally have no idea what you are talking about!

The Port Tunnel wasn't a vanity project!

North Dublin between the river and the M50 is the most densely populated part of the whole of Ireland! Yet until the port tunnel you had large numbers of 18 wheeler trucks driving along city and suburbs streets, right next to schools and houses between the M50 and the Port. It was horrible.

The Port Tunnel completely fixed this issue, removing these dangerous and polluting vehicles from the city streets and now these areas are seeing massive housing and apartment development. In fact the whole docklands developments, Google, Facebook, etc. wouldn't be possible without the Port Tunnel.

As for Metro North, it is incredibly important and frankly much more important then Dart Underground.

MN going to the airport really isn't the main reason for it. It is the cherry on top, the bonus, no the real reason for it is to link Swords to Dublin as others have said.

Swords has a population of 68,000. That makes it the fifth largest urban area in Ireland. Only behind Galway and even ahead of Waterford! In other words Swords is almost a city in it's own right.

Fingal County Council have zoned large amounts of land in Swords for further development with plans for the population to grow to 100,000, which would mean it would surpass Galway's population and might even challenge Limerick!

That shows how insanely large Swords is and the potential is has.

But that development can't go ahead as Swords is a commuter town of Dublin, meaning most people who live in Swords work either in Dublin City or at the Airport and the road between Swords and Dublin is already beyond capacity so it couldn't take another 40,000 people. This is why MN is needed.

BTW Swords is the only urban are in Irelands top 20 that doesn't have any rail based transport, more madness!

Add to all of that, that it will stop at the airport, but that it will also stop at multiple places in north city Dublin, the most densely populated areas which currently have no rail based transport, including DCU, Drumcondra, Croke Park, Mater Hospital, etc. and you see just how good a project it is. Also it will have massive park and rides that will allow people from outside the M50 to park and take the train in.

BTW you are also terribly wrong about Dart Underground. While it too is a very important project, it won't actually serve any areas that don't already have rail based transport! It's purpose is to improve the utilisation of the existing network but it actually won't bring rail to anyone new. MN will bring rail to WAY more new people and new areas then DU will.

It is almost like you are sprouting fake news! The truth is literally the opposite of what you are saying!

This isn't technically true.

DU will suddenly make the Kildare line a viable piece of infrastructure for more people. It will make latent demand in Clondalkin, Lucan and Celbridge boom. Lucan hasn't got train station (open) despite being between both mainline railways.

MN is very important but the easing of N7 and N4 congestion will happen with DU

Both need to be built though. This is not "either/or".

bk

CatInABox wrote: »

Indeed, they were only talking about this as part of their push to electrify the Maynooth line.

It's in here, with a plan to buy their first electric/diesel hybrids by 2020. I'll believe it when I see it.

Well electric/diesel hybrids wouldn't be surprising, they are pretty common for all new trains and buses. Big savings in fuel efficiency and improved acceleration/declaration.

Having said that, I'm not aware of them buying any new trains. The current plans are to refurbish existing trains that are in storage and to buy extra carriages for the existing ICR's to give them more capacity.

Perhaps they plan to buy one or two new hydrid electric/diesel trainsets in 2020 to trial it. Would make sense. But I'd certainly wouldn't expect widespread replacement of the current fleet, it is just too new.

Perhaps they could buy some new hybrid electric/Diesel engines for the Mark 4's. New engines, keep the carriages.

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Certainly not a top priority, you're right but was just wondering what the current situation is.

I do believe we need greater speeds on our intercity rail services, particularly Dublin to Cork/Limerick/Belfast.

Well you don't actually need electrification for higher speeds. You only need electrification if you are going full on "high speed rail" but then you are into the 12 billion territory cost and that will never happen.

In fact, the trains we currently have are capable of much higher speeds that their current average speeds. The issue isn't electrification, the issue is the quality of the line, the trackbed, the number of junctions, the amount of single track running. These all lead to serious slow speed restrictions along the line that significantly slow down the train.

Irish Rail are gradually working on these issues, to remove the speed restrictions and thus allow the trains to reach their fuller potential and thus reduce the journey time.

No that won't give you, 40 minutes to Cork. But it will reduce it to 2h 15m, a reasonable reduction for a reasonable cost.

40 minute, high speed rail at a cost of Billions is fantasy land stuff and will never happen. Makes much more sense just to subsidise air travel between Cork and Dublin. Same speed, at a fraction of the cost.

bk

BonnieSituation wrote: »

This isn't technically true.

DU will suddenly make the Kildare line a viable piece of infrastructure for more people. It will make latent demand in Clondalkin, Lucan and Celbridge boom. Lucan hasn't got train station (open) despite being between both mainline railways.

MN is very important but the easing of N7 and N4 congestion will happen with DU

Both need to be built though. This is not "either/or".

\

Er.. Dart Underground wasn't going to stop at Lucan!

Sure, it was going to improve the utilisation of the line, which I said. But it really doesn't open up any areas that don't already have rail.

Folks on the Kildare line can and do, get a commuter train into Hueston and then jump on the Luas into the city. Certainly not ideal and as fast as DU would be. But it is a fact that they are currently served by rail, unlike almost everyone who would be served by MN.

I also disagree on it not being "either/or" with MN. Sure, they will both eventually happen, but they are both very expensive projects and clearly we can't afford both being built at the same time. So one has to be prioritised over the other to come first.

Clearly that seems to be Metro North and I have to say I agree with them.

I will be surprised if we see DU start in the next 15 years. Likely MN will be finished first.

I think it was very telling that in the recent newspaper article with the CEO of Irish Rail mentioned above, that he didn't mention anything about Dart Underground. It is clearly on the backburner for the forseeable future.

Idbatterim

People are missing a serious point about MN! the city cant expand eastward, you've the mountains to the southwest. MN will allow a massive amount of desperately needed housing be built close to Dublin, also serviced by m1, close to northern line and hopefully much of it high density close to the MN route...

which leads to another question, could spurs be made off this line to service current greenfield sites, where the metro could surface run, that would allow massive high density development...

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

which leads to another question, could spurs be made off this line to service current greenfield sites, where the metro could surface run, that would allow massive high density development...

To a certain degree . The more spurs you have the more you degrade the service to the other spurs as the trunk can only handle so many trams. If you want to surface run a true Metro you realistically need to enclose it in a protective cage. Cut and cover could also be an option.

BonnieSituation

bk wrote: »

\

Er.. Dart Underground wasn't going to stop at Lucan!

Sure, it was going to improve the utilisation of the line, which I said. But it really doesn't open up any areas that don't already have rail.

Folks on the Kildare line can and do, get a commuter train into Hueston and then jump on the Luas into the city. Certainly not ideal and as fast as DU would be. But it is a fact that they are currently served by rail, unlike almost everyone who would be served by MN.

I also disagree on it not being "either/or" with MN. Sure, they will both eventually happen, but they are both very expensive projects and clearly we can't afford both being built at the same time. So one has to be prioritised over the other to come first.

Clearly that seems to be Metro North and I have to say I agree with them.

I will be surprised if we see DU start in the next 15 years. Likely MN will be finished first.

I think it was very telling that in the recent newspaper article with the CEO of Irish Rail mentioned above, that he didn't mention anything about Dart Underground. It is clearly on the backburner for the forseeable future.

DU stopping at Lucan? What? No one said that. Lucan is a whopper suburb as you know and Kishoge station was built to service the existing South Lucan and future Clonburris populations.

DU opens the Kildare line to these '000s of people as a viable form of transport which it isn't just yet.

The opening of DU suddenly makes the KR more viable for those thousands of people in Clondalkin and Lucan. It turns a 50min bus journey (on a great morning) to Merrion Sq to a train journey of just about 25min to Pearse.

A lot of people use the train west of Hazelhatch and have no qualms given the other options available to using Luas/145 for connections.

But those in Dublin on this railway line clearly have other more convenient options despite the rail infrastructure built for them because of the lack of real connectivity to the CC.

DU is of course on the long finger. But it shouldn't be.

I traveled in from Sallins this morning and the amount of people that took the train vs those further east at platforms is staggering and obvious. As I said, there is a latent demand (and this is the case all over the GDA) for fast comfortable commuter rail.

We can afford both. There's no question. The things i we have no politicians to bother promoting both.

---

Incidentally, I was looking at a clip on the RTÉ archive this morning from 1962 discussing house building between 1948 and 1962. £150 million was spent by the State on housing between grants to Corporations and private developers. That works out (crudely) at about €3.4 billion.

Amazing how we could do that stuff post-war and now... look at us.

LeinsterDub

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Amazing how we could do that stuff post-war and now... look at us.

Marshall Plan.

Ireland which received 146.2 million USD through the Marshall Plan, received 128.2 million USD as loans, and the remaining 18 million USD as grants.[93] By 1969 the Irish Marshall Plan debt, which was still being repaid, amounted to 31 million pounds, out of a total Irish foreign debt of 50 million pounds.[94]

BonnieSituation

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Marshall Plan. We got 133 Million from it.

Sorry. I wasn't talking about the cash. I was talking about the will and ability to just get on with stuff and get people in to get stuff done.

Ardnacrusha, Rural Electrification...

LeinsterDub

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Sorry. I wasn't talking about the cash. I was talking about the will and ability to just get on with stuff and get people in to get stuff done.

Ardnacrusha, Rural Electrification...

You're correct there in fairness, the plan was aim at infrastructure. I don't know if the Americans gave the money to be spent as we liked or said it's primary purpose is infrastructure

bk

Bonnie, nothing you said refutes what I said.

What I said is, DU improves utilisation of the existing network, but it doesn't actually bring rail to any new areas. Which is absolutely true, all the people you mention above already have a rail option, unlike those on the MN corridor.

Idbatterim wrote: »

People are missing a serious point about MN! the city cant expand eastward, you've the mountains to the southwest. MN will allow a massive amount of desperately needed housing be built close to Dublin, also serviced by m1, close to northern line and hopefully much of it high density close to the MN route...

which leads to another question, could spurs be made off this line to service current greenfield sites, where the metro could surface run, that would allow massive high density development...

That is the plan, lots of land has been reserved and zoned by Fingal CC for high density development along the route.

There were originally also plans to later extend Metro North further north of Swords, to meet up with the Northern line. Other spurs north of Swords would also make sense.

As LeinsterDub says, obviously the trunk needs to be built to a standard that can easily be upgraded in future with longer stations/trains, etc.

This is why MN is so important. It will make up the core north-south axis of our transport network that future extensions and expansions of public transport will be built on.

We already have somewhat, imperfect east-west axis with the Phoenix Park tunnel and Luas Red Line. But eventually it too will be improved with DU.

Idbatterim

also when you get a ton of new rail users using MN and they can interchange with IR, surely that might lead to more frequent IR services and perhaps new stations etc...

murphaph

I believe DU does bring a rail service to many new areas. What percentage of commuters along the Kildare Route today actually use the railway? From Heuston out to the M50 there are no stations!

If DU existed it would make sense to add them in as close as the South Circular Road. Nobody could argue that these areas are served by rail, just because the tracks go past the backs of their houses.

I believe both projects are of similar importance but believe DU is better value. I would take either being built but believe we need both and then some.

pigtown

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How much capital spending does health actually need? National Maternity Hospital and ?

Limerick Maternity Hospital is massively over capacity. A site at UHL has been reserved for a new one but the funding hasn't materialised yet.

marno21 wrote: »

I agree, a Cork-Dublin flight is surely viable for connections alone given the amount of long haul destinations now accessible from Cork, and the continued decline of Shannon (see United today)

The money that could be spent on high speed Dublin-Cork rail could be much invested elsewhere. Better access to Kent station would be a great way to reduce net journey times.

I don't know what you mean with this. The temporary loss of one route hardly constitutes a decline.

What would people feel about buying enough land to build the M20 and also reserve space for a future parallel rail line between Charleville and Patrickswell?

bk

murphaph wrote: »

I believe DU does bring a rail service to many new areas. What percentage of commuters along the Kildare Route today actually use the railway? From Heuston out to the M50 there are no stations!

If DU existed it would make sense to add them in as close as the South Circular Road. Nobody could argue that these areas are served by rail, just because the tracks go past the backs of their houses.

I believe both projects are of similar importance but believe DU is better value. I would take either being built but believe we need both and then some.

Hold on there a second. DART Underground proposed building just 6 new stations. 5 of which are in the city center of which 3 are already train stations!

There was to be just one new station on the Kildare line, at Inchicore. Which isn't exactly a million miles away from the Red Luas line either!

Of course it would be convenient for the people living close by, but that wouldn't come anywhere close to opening up rail to the same number of people as Metro North!

Metro North will open up rail to 68k people in Swords alone growing to 100k eventually, plus the airport, DCU and the whole of the north side!

Just one new station so close to the city at Inchicore will come nowhere near that sort of capacity to opening up rail to new users as MN will!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that DU isn't important, nor will it not eventually come, it will, but I see absolutely no logic in how people can claim it is more important then Metro North!

The only reason I can think of that people would make this claim, is if they are personally living on the Kildare line and they are thinking, wouldn't it be great if this took me right into the heart of the city center, without having the trouble of transferring on Luas. And yes, of course it would. But that doesn't mean it is a priority or that it will even attract significantly more passengers then MN! The people living in Swords, sitting on buses stuck in traffic on the Swords road would LOVE to have your problem of having to change unto Luas to get into the city!

murphaph

bk wrote: »

Hold on there a second. DART Underground proposed building just 6 new stations. 5 of which are in the city center of which 3 are already train stations!

There was to be just one new station on the Kildare line, at Inchicore. Which isn't exactly a million miles away from the Red Luas line either!

Of course it would be convenient for the people living close by, but that wouldn't come anywhere close to opening up rail to the same number of people as Metro North!

Metro North will open up rail to 68k people in Swords alone growing to 100k eventually, plus the airport, DCU and the whole of the north side!

Just one new station so close to the city at Inchicore will come nowhere near that sort of capacity to opening up rail to new users as MN will!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that DU isn't important, nor will it not eventually come, it will, but I see absolutely no logic in how people can claim it is more important then Metro North!

The only reason I can think of that people would make this claim, is if they are personally living on the Kildare line and they are thinking, wouldn't it be great if this took me right into the heart of the city center, without having the trouble of transferring on Luas. And yes, of course it would. But that doesn't mean it is a priority or that it will even attract significantly more passengers then MN! The people living in Swords, sitting on buses stuck in traffic on the Swords road would LOVE to have your problem of having to change unto Luas to get into the city!

After DU it would be trivial to add infill stations between Heuston and Inchicore.

DU would add immense capacity to the system, allowing buses to bring people from vast swathes of West Dublin and indeed Swords to DART stations with one change to the city centre.

Of course the same applies to MN. Both demand massive bus feed in to really sweat them properly. There is no way 100k people in Swords will live within the golden 1km walking distance of a station. Bus feed in will be required, same as with DU.

If I had a choice I'd pick DU followed very closely by MN but would be happy to see either proceed!