Government Capital Spending on Infrastructure

thomasj · 13-07-2017 6:53pm

murphaph wrote:

Of course the same applies to MN. Both demand massive bus feed in to really sweat them properly. There is no way 100k people in Swords will live within the golden 1km walking distance of a station. Bus feed in will be required, same as with DU.

Will be the same as blanchardstown currently is over 100k population but nearly half of that population is away from a rail station . Hopefully network direct puts some thought into this.

D.L.R. · 13-07-2017 7:28pm

zetalambda wrote: »

Swords has the same population as Dundalk. It's just a big town that not many people outside of Dublin will ever have heard of.

Swords is MUCH bigger than Dundalk. Hell, Swords has more commuters than Dundalk has people.

And as an Irish person you'd have to be pretty ignorant to be unaware of its existance, not that this matters one tiny bit. :rolleyes:

Plenty of one horse country towns I never heard of got their own motorway off ramp.

You clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Grandeeod · 13-07-2017 8:36pm

Just a brief contribution despite my well known doubts about it all.

Lots of talk about MN and the M20. I'm all for both. But I really do wonder if DU is being sidelined. That would be a really massive mistake and we would pay the price.

lucernarian · 13-07-2017 9:30pm

It's worth also noting that much of the land that Metro North "opens up" is in the vicinity of the airport, mainly intended for office development and general headline-generator ****e, while the residential zoning that the truly-incompetent Fingal Co Co come up with, is often found far more than 10 minutes away from the proposed metro line.

Fingal have not made sensible decisions since becoming a separate council, as the planning and spatial mess that is Blanch Shopping Centre can show.

With all due respect to bk, I think the comparative merits of (new) Metro North to the Rail Interconnector have been substantially overhyped

I'd also add that our planners deserve a special level of scorn and ridicule for the decisions like those taken en-masse across Fingal from the mid 90s to 2010. Similarly, Dublin Corpo were happy to have land built up alongside train tracks without leaving space, whether it's Kilbarrack, or somewhere like St John's Road just past Heuston station.

And a special mention for Meath County council trying their best to ensure the railway to Navan might never be reopened when they laid a sewer pipe on the alignment.

bk · 13-07-2017 9:44pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Just a brief contribution despite my well known doubts about it all.

Lots of talk about MN and the M20. I'm all for both. But I really do wonder if DU is being sidelined. That would be a really massive mistake and we would pay the price.

So all the sudden talk about MN and M20 stems from Leo Varadaker's campaigning for Taoiseach where in his manifesto, he said he wanted to spend more on infrastructure and specifically mentioned those two projects, but didn't mention DU.

Since then he and others have mentioned M20 and MN many times and they both have come up in the press many times, but again no mention of DU.

I was delighted to see MN and M20 rightfully back on the forefront, with real political pressure behind them, as until now they had clearly been sidelined.

I didn't think DU was totally off the table, just that it was of lower priority then MN.

However I was really shocked at that interview with the IR CEO when he never even mentioned DU! So now I'm not so sure that it hasn't been completely sidelined.

Politically it sort of makes sense, do they really want to pour 3 billion into an Irish Rail project when IR are in such bad financial shape, looming pension crisis and ongoing problems with the unions (refusing to run 10 minute DARTS, etc.).

I suspect the government want these issues well sorted before even thinking about spending that sort of money on a big project like DU. I suspect there is very little appetite for DU in the NTA or Dep of Transport and Finance.

MN on the other hand is a VASTLY easier sell for everyone involved. No pesky CIE unions to deal with, RPA/NTA owned project, basically just a fancy Luas and everyone loves LUAS. Easy to explain to the public as an underground Luas to the Airport, etc.

So yes, we will have to wait and see how it all plays out, but I do suspect DU is being sidelined for the next decade at least.

That is why I think you see the IR CEO now talking about electrification of the Maynooth line instead. Find ways to maximise what they have with smaller projects. REfurb the 2700's and break them back, new ICR carriages to increase capacity of each train, 10 minute DARTS, DARTs on Maynooth line, etc.

Grandeeod · 13-07-2017 10:02pm

bk wrote: »

So all the sudden talk about MN and M20 stems from Leo Varadaker's campaigning for Taoiseach where in his manifesto, he said he wanted to spend more on infrastructure and specifically mentioned those two projects, but didn't mention DU.

Since then he and others have mentioned M20 and MN many times and they both have come up in the press many times, but again no mention of DU.

I was delighted to see MN and M20 rightfully back on the forefront, with real political pressure behind them, as until now they had clearly been sidelined.

I didn't think DU was totally off the table, just that it was of lower priority then MN.

However I was really shocked at that interview with the IR CEO when he never even mentioned DU! So now I'm not so sure that it hasn't been completely sidelined.

Politically it sort of makes sense, do they really want to pour 3 billion into an Irish Rail project when IR are in such bad financial shape, looming pension crisis and ongoing problems with the unions (refusing to run 10 minute DARTS, etc.).

I suspect the government want these issues well sorted before even thinking about spending that sort of money on a big project like DU. I suspect there is very little appetite for DU in the NTA or Dep of Transport and Finance.

MN on the other hand is a VASTLY easier sell for everyone involved. No pesky CIE unions to deal with, RPA/NTA owned project, basically just a fancy Luas and everyone loves LUAS. Easy to explain to the public as an underground Luas to the Airport, etc.

So yes, we will have to wait and see how it all plays out, but I do suspect DU is being sidelined for the next decade at least.

That is why I think you see the IR CEO now talking about electrification of the Maynooth line instead. Find ways to maximise what they have with smaller projects. REfurb the 2700's and break them back, new ICR carriages to increase capacity of each train, 10 minute DARTS, DARTs on Maynooth line, etc.

Interesting analysis BK and I couldn't really fault much of it. There does appear to be a distrust against CIE and that has been ongoing for many years stretching back to the luas project (which I still owe you a detailed post on:D) and I have no doubt that DU is being affected by it. However it really does need sorting out because without DU, we will still be patching up Dublin with luas and MN and making them look rediculous in the bigger scheme of things and that wouldn't be fair to them.

Despite T21 and all its baloney, two fundamental issues for Dublin came out of it. MN and DU. Put them in place as proposed and Dublin is set for great things. Then we can actually start (for the very first time) looking at other cities in terms of light rail around Cork, Limerick and Galway. But we must fix the capital first. All this said, we cannot forget about roads and the M20 is a no brainer. Combining all this at a political level is one serious balancing act, but I never thought that politicians should have anything to do with it anyway.

bk · 13-07-2017 10:12pm

murphaph wrote: »

After DU it would be trivial to add infill stations between Heuston and Inchicore.

You mean between Hueston to M50?

Inchicore to Hueston is only about 3km and there isn't much housing in between, mostly parks and various track facilities.

Then it is about another 3km to Cherry Orchard Train station and the m50.

Other then a station at Inchicore, there really doesn't seem to be much room there for new stations or any significant new housing development. Just take a look at the Kildare line in the area on Google Maps.

lucernarian wrote: »

It's worth also noting that much of the land that Metro North "opens up" is in the vicinity of the airport, mainly intended for office development and general headline-generator ****e, while the residential zoning that the truly-incompetent Fingal Co Co come up with, is often found far more than 10 minutes away from the proposed metro line.

Errr.. isn't is quiet a good idea to build rail to major employment centers!

I agree that of course some of the housing in Swords will be further then 10 minutes walk. And I completely agree that we need properly and fully integrated bus services feeding into MN in Swords and the same into the rail stations on the Kildare line, Maynooth line, etc. It goes without saying.

bk · 13-07-2017 10:19pm

Oh I totally agree Grandeeod, DU is a vital part of Dublin's infrastructure and it does need to happen eventually.

I'll just be shocked if we see any movement at all on it for the next 15 years. Instead I think the government priorities are going to be:

1) Metro North
2) Smaller rail improvement projects like DARTification of either Northern Line or Maynooth line (or both if it takes long enough!)
3) Fix Irish Rails problems.

Grandeeod · 13-07-2017 10:32pm

bk wrote: »

Oh I totally agree Grandeeod, DU is a vital part of Dublin's infrastructure and it does need to happen eventually.

I'll just be shocked if we see any movement at all on it for the next 15 years. Instead I think the government priorities are going to be:

1) Metro North
2) Smaller rail improvement projects like DARTification of either Northern Line or Maynooth line (or both if it takes long enough!)
3) Fix Irish Rails problems.

I would suggest that 2 and 3 may happen sooner with 1 getting kicked down the road again and again, while DU gets trapped in planning hell. Sorry for being so negative, but I'm around this bizarre stuff since the original DART opening was heralded. The politics has changed a little, but not too much.

seanin4711 · 13-07-2017 10:35pm

Motorways fine
Rural roads get a shot of tarmac and a pat with a shovel.
They are in ****e, I know I cycle/drive them.
Country needs a new layer of asphalt not just the pale.

bk · 13-07-2017 11:27pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

I would suggest that 2 and 3 may happen sooner with 1 getting kicked down the road again and again, while DU gets trapped in planning hell. Sorry for being so negative, but I'm around this bizarre stuff since the original DART opening was heralded. The politics has changed a little, but not too much.

I disagree, the political dynamics around MN are very different this time around.

If MN isn't begun in three years when the next election comes around, then Leo and FG will be in serious trouble and I think they know this very well.

Leo/FG need to win big in Dublin to stay in government. With the economy booming again, congestion as bad as ever, it would look really bad for Leo if MN wasn't well under way in three years time.

The optics would look terrible. He is a Dublin politician, but was actually responsible for cancelling MN. If nothing has progressed in 3 years time, then he will get roasted for it and I'm sure he knows it. There are no other major projects in the Dublin region for them to advance instead. BRT or Maynooth electrification simply aren't big enough (and on one wants to invest in IR anyway).

This is why he is pushing it so hard. He is young, just 38 and I'd assume wants to remain in politics for the next 20 to 30 years. If he doesn't get MN through, he knows perfectly well that cancelling it will haunt him for the rest of his political career.

Instead he needs to own it now and been seen to get it done.

CatInABox · 13-07-2017 11:28pm

bk wrote: »

That is why I think you see the IR CEO now talking about electrification of the Maynooth line instead. Find ways to maximise what they have with smaller projects. REfurb the 2700's and break them back, new ICR carriages to increase capacity of each train, 10 minute DARTS, DARTs on Maynooth line, etc.

As far as I can see, DU is politically dead. No real way of progressing a project that expensive in this climate, and that's not going to change any time soon. MN is a much easier sell, as it doesn't have as much baggage attached, as you've said.

While DU is politically dead, it's not actually "really dead". The removal of level crossings along the Dart lines, such as the current plan around the Merrion Gates, and the electrification of the line out to Maynooth were part of DU. We're just getting it piecemeal.

thomasj · 14-07-2017 1:10am

bk wrote:

If MN isn't begun in three years when the next election comes around, then Leo and FG will be in serious trouble and I think they know this very well.

bk wrote:

Leo/FG need to win big in Dublin to stay in government. With the economy booming again, congestion as bad as ever, it would look really bad for Leo if MN wasn't well under way in three years time.

Leo has to get reelected in his own patch first ............

lucernarian · 14-07-2017 7:48am

bk wrote: »

Errr.. isn't is quiet a good idea to build rail to major employment centers!

I agree that of course some of the housing in Swords will be further then 10 minutes walk. And I completely agree that we need properly and fully integrated bus services feeding into MN in Swords and the same into the rail stations on the Kildare line, Maynooth line, etc. It goes without saying.

Not some, most. Many older established estates that are not so far from Main St would still be over 10 minutes away, like the ones further past JC's. And then there's all of River Valley pretty much. The likes of Swords is choc a block with local traffic issues, and the congestion on Bridge St. and Rathbeale Road have no straightforward solution. I'd want to see the shuttle buses idea happen nonetheless and that would clearly apply to places like Celbridge also.

The first point is only realised precisely by that land being used for business and industrial purposes instead of residential. Either it frees up land for building residential, high-density properties which IMO it will fail to do, or it will create employment centres located within reach of proper rail transport. It can't really do both simultaneously. Of course I'd like to see employment centres properly linked by rail as my track record would show. I'm really trying to highlight Fingal's ineptitude and that Metro North will not mean a revolution in residential development in Dublin. Far less than what can be done along the Kildare line with more competent local authorities and land available that's not beside an airport.

Dardania · 14-07-2017 8:41am

Pertinent article to this topic: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-lost-economic-decade-still-haunts-budget-policy-1.3153826

bk · 14-07-2017 6:02pm

thomasj wrote: »

Leo has to get reelected in his own patch first ............

Err.. a sitting Taoiseach has never not been re-elected!

It just isn't the done thing here in Ireland and Leo is super popular at the moment, no chance he wouldn't be!

Grandeeod · 14-07-2017 6:32pm

bk wrote: »

I disagree, the political dynamics around MN are very different this time around.

I genuinely hope you are right. I really do. I would love to see the day come when politicians grasp the bull by the horns and commit to projects like this. I just hope MN isn't used as some big deal scenario if built that allows Governments to become complacent for another 40 years. Dublin desperately needs DU too.

bk · 14-07-2017 6:55pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

I genuinely hope you are right. I really do. I would love to see the day come when politicians grasp the bull by the horns and commit to projects like this. I just hope MN isn't used as some big deal scenario if built that allows Governments to become complacent for another 40 years. Dublin desperately needs DU too.

I don't think it will be. I'm hoping that it will prove to the public that we can build big projects like this and that they can make massive difference and leads to the public calling for lots more like this, including DU.

Just like the first Luas lines did, the motorways, etc.

CatInABox · 14-07-2017 7:14pm

bk wrote: »

I don't think it will be. I'm hoping that it will prove to the public that we can build big projects like this and that they can make massive difference and leads to the public calling for lots more like this, including DU.

Just like the first Luas lines did, the motorways, etc.

Yes, I'm thinking that in the year after Metro North opens, the main news about it will be that it's already smashed predicted usage figures (just like the M50 and Luas), and that areas along the line have been transformed! Who could have predicted that investment in an area could improve it????

Hopefully, by that stage, the benefits of mass public transport will be undeniable to even the most stubborn pundit.

zetalambda · 18-07-2017 10:21am

MayoSalmon wrote: »

The airport needs a rail connection (express preferably)...and yes the consensus is that every other important city in the world has this infrastructure in place...but hey lets continue to be the outlier as we are with many other things.

Newcastle in the UK has a metro. Does that make you think Newcastle is an important and progressive city? Me neither. If you have a sh!thole and you build a metro then what you're left with is a sh!thole with a metro.

MayoSalmon · 18-07-2017 11:01am

zetalambda wrote: »

Newcastle in the UK has a metro. Does that make you think Newcastle is an important and progressive city? Me neither. If you have a sh!thole and you build a metro then what you're left with is a sh!thole with a metro.

What is your point here? And Yes Newcastle is an important city, center of the industrial revolution and the one of the most populous areas in the UK. Newcastle is not far behind Manchester in economic output. I wouldn't call it a ****hole...now Middlesbrough...that is a ****hole:pac:

zetalambda · 18-07-2017 11:05am

MayoSalmon wrote: »

What is your point here? And Yes Newcastle is an important city, center of the industrial revolution and the one of the most populous areas in the UK. Newcastle is not far behind Manchester in economic output. I wouldn't call it a ****hole...now Middlesbrough...that is a ****hole:pac:

Great, you proved my point: Tees Valley Metro.

CatInABox · 18-07-2017 11:06am

MayoSalmon wrote: »

What is your point here? And Yes Newcastle is an important city, center of the industrial revolution and the one of the most populous areas in the UK. Newcastle is not far behind Manchester in economic output. I wouldn't call it a ****hole...now Middlesbrough...that is a ****hole:pac:

It's also pretty progressive, with a major, respected University there.

CatInABox · 18-07-2017 11:14am

zetalambda wrote: »

Great, you proved my point: Tees Valley Metro.

Actually, I don't know what your point is?

Are you saying Dublin is a ****hole? That it shouldn't have a metro? That it should?

zetalambda · 18-07-2017 11:40am

CatInABox wrote: »

Actually, I don't know what your point is?

Are you saying Dublin is a ****hole? That it shouldn't have a metro? That it should?

You might have to scroll back to see my origional post in this thread. I'm not saying Dublin is a sh!thole. I'm saying that a metro in Dublin won't make anyone outside of Dublin think any different of the city. Building a metro in Dublin will only please the locals who already think library hall is a skyscraper and Dublin is like New York!

BonnieSituation · 18-07-2017 11:59am

zetalambda wrote: »

You might have to scroll back to see my origional post in this thread. I'm not saying Dublin is a sh!thole. I'm saying that a metro in Dublin won't make anyone outside of Dublin think any different of the city. Building a metro in Dublin will only please the locals who already think library hall is a skyscraper and Dublin is like New York!

Pleasing the locals is something we're disasters at in Ireland. Always worried about what foreigners think and ignoring the stat of our infrastructure wrt the people who would use it daily. For years all the the talk was about "a metro to the airport" cos tourists.. Ignoring the people who actually live here and may want to get around THEIR city at a reasonably efficient pace.

LeinsterDub · 18-07-2017 12:01pm

zetalambda wrote: »

Building a metro in Dublin will only please the locals who already think library hall is a skyscraper and Dublin is like New York!

Impressive straw man

CatInABox · 18-07-2017 12:02pm

zetalambda wrote: »

You might have to scroll back to see my origional post in this thread. I'm not saying Dublin is a sh!thole. I'm saying that a metro in Dublin won't make anyone outside of Dublin think any different of the city. Building a metro in Dublin will only please the locals who already think library hall is a skyscraper and Dublin is like New York!

Ah, okay, sorry, honestly the two posts I did see were so different that I couldn't tell what your opinion was.

I'd suggest though, that most people on this forum know that Dublin is nothing like London, Paris or New York, but the best way to becoming a better city is through large and prolonged investment in infrastructure. Metro North isn't going to suddenly turn Dublin into this amazing city, but it will make it better than it is now.

As for people outside of Dublin (I'm assuming you're talking of people outside Ireland), then no, Metro North isn't going to change their opinion, unless they are looking to invest in Dublin/Ireland. People just coming over on holidays probably won't change their opinion based on Metro North, but then Dublin doesn't have a bad reputation internationally anyway.

DaniilKharms · 18-07-2017 1:35pm

Time to spend on this, bigly.

Dublin public transport is a joke.

Transport down the country is a joke.

If you don't have a car you're screwed.

Let's sort this out so our kids or grandkids don't think we're idiots.

bk · 18-07-2017 1:51pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I'd suggest though, that most people on this forum know that Dublin is nothing like London, Paris or New York, but the best way to becoming a better city is through large and prolonged investment in infrastructure. Metro North isn't going to suddenly turn Dublin into this amazing city, but it will make it better than it is now.

Of course not, but Dublin is a medium sized European city roughly the same size and population density as Amsterdam and Copenhagen.

And they have Metros and extensive, highly integrated bus and tram networks and superb cycling and walking facilities, etc.

Government Capital Spending on Infrastructure

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