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HGV Versus Cyclist Road Rage

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  • 13-07-2017 12:07am
    #1
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭


    I came across the following video on a Facebook feed:

    https://www.facebook.com/idiotdriverscaught/videos/1910694995869836/

    All I can say is I am absolutely shocked and appalled.

    Given the ambiguous nature of the road (i.e. no clearly marked cycle lanes) coupled with the fact that two cyclists were clearly ahead of the truck, the driver should have used his intuition and waited for the coast to be clear before proceeding. I believe this is referred to in the world of driving as advanced driving.

    The cyclist which the truck hit was almost certainly in his field of vision between 0:23 and 0:25 seconds before he decided to apply more gas. He didn't even attempt to move out and was well within the recommended minimum of 1 meter of clearance to the kerb let alone the cyclist.

    The truck driver was completely in the wrong and wasn't even apologetic. His conduct was completely unacceptable and he will likely be fired from his job or at the very least, banned from driving for a good while anyway.

    The lane which they waited in may very well have been a left-turn lane. But, the lane to go straight-ahead was completely taken up by the truck. Plus, I didn't see a cyclist resting bay ahead of the stop-line.

    A small amount of the fault is the ridiculous design of the junction which fails to adequately provide cycle facilities. The truck driver is extremely lucky that he didn't have a death on his conscience.


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    #2
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    Given the ambiguous nature of the road (i.e. no clearly marked cycle lanes) coupled with the fact that two cyclists were clearly ahead of the truck, the driver should have used his intuition and waited for the coast to be clear before proceeding. I believe this is referred to in the world of driving as advanced driving.
    100%, it is not advanced driving though, it is a minimum expected standard.
    The cyclist which the truck hit was almost certainly in his field of vision between 0:23 and 0:25 seconds before he decided to apply more gas. He didn't even attempt to move out and was well within the recommended minimum of 1 meter of clearance to the kerb let alone the cyclist.
    Having driven a rigid body before (not an arctic) it is dubious he ever saw the cyclist but he would have known there was someone close by because he seen the lads move ahead and would have seen the lads behind in his rear view. The camera man was clearly in his rear view mirror.
    The truck driver was completely in the wrong and wasn't even apologetic. His conduct was completely unacceptable and he will likely be fired from his job or at the very least, banned from driving for a good while anyway.
    He should be, but he won't
    The lane which they waited in may very well have been a left-turn lane. But, the lane to go straight-ahead was completely taken up by the truck. Plus, I didn't see a cyclist resting bay ahead of the stop-line.
    This on the other hand is not an excuse, every cyclist in that lane after the truck arrived was in the wrong. Right or wrong, your priority on the road must always be yourself. The driver was a muppet but he had a point. You will end up dead.


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    #3
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    As a cyclist I would not wait in a HGV's blind spot at the lights, (as all thos cyclists did) then try to beat him across the junction from that position.

    Either get in front where he can see you before the lights change, or stay behind him. Poor anticipation and road sense from the cyclists. As the cyclists said they did because everyone does it. Very lucky not to have been killed.

    The Driver should have let the cyclists go ahead and not squeezed them. But it was clear from the way he moved off he was not going to give way and was going for the pinch point opposite, regardless of the cyclists. He will kill someone driving like that.


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    #4
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    Driver at fault but contributory negligence on the part of the cyclist(s). What really annoyed me was that every cyclist in that clip were going straight on but not a single one thought to pull up in front of the truck. There were lights directly opposite the junction so holding back to see the sequence change not an excuse. Perhaps some would have but were obstructed by other cyclists (Mapei jersey guy I'm looking at you).

    Layout looks particularly dangerous though, especially with lanes narrowing and merging after the junction.

    Also I notice the guy fails to clip-in first time, stops pedalling and looks down, which was enough for the truck to overtake.


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    #5
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,511 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Those cyclists all went straight on from a left turn only lane, that's not acceptable.
    The trucker should have been able to see them but maybe he couldn't due to the angles and blind spots, hardly unfair to say he shouldn't expect cyclists to be there though given the lane setup.

    I counted 9 cyclists I think, all of whom, frankly, are morons for being in the position they were, how they cannot understand the danger that truck poses escapes me.


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    #6
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Habit. They infer it in the video.


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    #7
    Danbo!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,942 ✭✭✭Danbo!


    Forgetting about who is to blame for one second, how bloody lucky is the cyclist considering the way he fell against the truck? Odds are very much stacked against you on a bike getting hit unexpectedly by a hgv like that, but coming out unscathed and, more importantly, still upright, is insanely lucky!


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    #8
    the whole year inn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,099 ✭✭✭the whole year inn


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    I came across the following video on a Facebook feed:

    https://www.facebook.com/idiotdriverscaught/videos/1910694995869836/

    All I can say is I am absolutely shocked and appalled.

    Given the ambiguous nature of the road (i.e. no clearly marked cycle lanes) coupled with the fact that two cyclists were clearly ahead of the truck, the driver should have used his intuition and waited for the coast to be clear before proceeding. I believe this is referred to in the world of driving as advanced driving.

    The cyclist which the truck hit was almost certainly in his field of vision between 0:23 and 0:25 seconds before he decided to apply more gas. He didn't even attempt to move out and was well within the recommended minimum of 1 meter of clearance to the kerb let alone the cyclist.

    The truck driver was completely in the wrong and wasn't even apologetic. His conduct was completely unacceptable and he will likely be fired from his job or at the very least, banned from driving for a good while anyway.

    The lane which they waited in may very well have been a left-turn lane. But, the lane to go straight-ahead was completely taken up by the truck. Plus, I didn't see a cyclist resting bay ahead of the stop-line.

    A small amount of the fault is the ridiculous design of the junction which fails to adequately provide cycle facilities. The truck driver is extremely lucky that he didn't have a death on his conscience.

    The driver is completely in the right. There in the left lane and should be turning left, and then they do the stupid thing as try and beat the truck, what sort of stupid thing to do.
    The driver hit the gas because its a truck,the truck has blind spots and doesn't see all the bikers.
    This proves that some sort of licence has to be issued, if you don't know the rules of the road how are you expected not to get injured.
    I'll say to you if that was a small car and tried that who's insurance would be paying out?


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    #9
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    the whole year inn wrote: »
    The driver is completely in the right. There in the left lane and should be turning left, and then they do the stupid thing as try and beat the truck, what sort of stupid thing to do.
    The driver hit the gas because its a truck,the truck has blind spots and doesn't see all the bikers.
    This proves that some sort of licence has to be issued, if you don't know the rules of the road how are you expected not to get injured.
    I'll say to you if that was a small car and tried that who's insurance would be paying out?
    "Should be" isn't a defence though (not condoning the cyclists). The driver still has a responsibility to ensure that the road space they are moving into is clear. Just because another road user is positioned in a certain lane doesn't mean you can make assumptions and proceed without caution


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    #10
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    the whole year inn wrote: »
    ...
    This proves that some sort of licence has to be issued, if you don't know the rules of the road how are you expected not to get injured....

    83% of UK cyclists hold driving licences

    This is nothing to do with licences or Rules of the Road.

    Its bad habits through lack of enforcement.


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    #11
    ScouseMouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭ScouseMouse


    An undertaking cyclist, in a left turn only lane, changes lanes in a lorries blindspot and collides with a lorry going straight on.

    Its a pity the gob****e didn't have his bike flattened the absolute ejit.


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    #12
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,310 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    the whole year inn wrote: »
    The driver is completely in the right.
    While neither agreeing nor disagreeing with your position, perhaps 'not in the wrong' might be a more appropriate term than 'in the right' when referring to a situation whereby a person could quite possibly have been minced by the tens of tonnes of metal that the driver was responsible for safely moving around a shared environment?

    Just a thought. Anyway. As ye were...


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    #13
    ScouseMouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭ScouseMouse


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    "Should be" isn't a defence though (not condoning the cyclists). The driver still has a responsibility to ensure that the road space they are moving into is clear. Just because another road user is positioned in a certain lane doesn't mean you can make assumptions and proceed without caution
    Are you suggesting its unreasonable to expect someone in a left turning lane
    to TURN LEFT??


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    #14
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The driver saw other cyclists coming from that position ahead of him, and should have anticipated other muppets.


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    #15
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Danbo! wrote: »
    Forgetting about who is to blame for one second, how bloody lucky is the cyclist considering the way he fell against the truck? Odds are very much stacked against you on a bike getting hit unexpectedly by a hgv like that, but coming out unscathed and, more importantly, still upright, is insanely lucky!
    Holy **** is right, plenty of people in this world who were not so lucky.
    the whole year inn wrote: »
    The driver is completely in the right. There in the left lane and should be turning left, and then they do the stupid thing as try and beat the truck, what sort of stupid thing to do.
    The driver hit the gas because its a truck,the truck has blind spots and doesn't see all the bikers.
    This proves that some sort of licence has to be issued, if you don't know the rules of the road how are you expected not to get injured.
    I'll say to you if that was a small car and tried that who's insurance would be paying out?
    Rubbish. I have driven HGVs, if he was looking he would have seen the camera biker. He hit the gas to cut off the cyclists he could see or he is incompetent. The cyclists are in the wrong, no doubt, that does not mean the driver was in the right. Thinking it does shows a lack of common sense or empathy. Neither of which are acceptable when in charge of a vehicle of that power and size.


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    #16
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    ScouseMouse wrote: »
    Are you suggesting its unreasonable to expect someone in a left turning lane
    to TURN LEFT??

    He seen the cyclists ahead, he seen the cyclists in his rear view slightly further back. It is not a case of assuming, he has to have known that there were muppets there. Being in the right does not give him carte blanche to kill someone. If you think it does, I can only hope no one relies on you for safety.


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    #17
    ScouseMouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭ScouseMouse


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Holy **** is right, plenty of people in this world who were not so lucky.
    Rubbish. I have driven HGVs, if he was looking he would have seen the camera biker. He hit the gas to cut off the cyclists he could see or he is incompetent. The cyclists are in the wrong, no doubt, that does not mean the driver was in the right. Thinking it does shows a lack of common sense or empathy. Neither of which are acceptable when in charge of a vehicle of that power and size.

    Or maybe he expected people to obey the rules of the road like..... Do not undertake. In a left turning lane, you must turn left. Etc etc simple enough expectations. The cyclists should have more cop on.


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    #18
    ScouseMouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭ScouseMouse


    CramCycle wrote: »
    He seen the cyclists ahead, he seen the cyclists in his rear view slightly further back. It is not a case of assuming, he has to have known that there were muppets there. Being in the right does not give him carte blanche to kill someone. If you think it does, I can only hope no one relies on you for safety.

    Muppets indeed. Although being in a go straight ahead lane, does entitle him to do that without expecting power rangers changing lanes and undertaking him and trying to push in against 50 tones of steel!


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    #19
    the whole year inn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,099 ✭✭✭the whole year inn


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    "Should be" isn't a defence though (not condoning the cyclists). The driver still has a responsibility to ensure that the road space they are moving into is clear. Just because another road user is positioned in a certain lane doesn't mean you can make assumptions and proceed without caution
    Doesn't that go for 10 times for the cyclists. They are completely in the wrong in the left lane and to make matters worse they try to beat the truck.
    I'll ask the question again if this was a car who's insurance would be paying out?


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    #20
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ScouseMouse wrote: »
    Or maybe he expected people to obey the rules of the road like..... ....

    ...only an idiot expects that... or someone with zero experience....


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    #21
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    the whole year inn wrote: »
    Doesn't that go for 10 times for the cyclists. They are completely in the wrong in the left lane and to make matters worse they try to beat the truck.
    I'll ask the question again if this was a car who's insurance would be paying out?

    The insurance which has the most to gain by a claim. Since its scam.

    If it was car though they'd all claim whiplash.


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    #22
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    ScouseMouse wrote: »
    Muppets indeed. Although being in a go straight ahead lane, does entitle him to do that without expecting power rangers changing lanes and undertaking him and trying to push in against 50 tones of steel!
    He doesn't have to be a mind reader, some were visible before the junction. He was arguably, barely, legally in the right. The cyclists were muppets, all of them. But for him not to expect it was coming is clearly driving without due care and attention.
    the whole year inn wrote: »
    Doesn't that go for 10 times for the cyclists. They are completely in the wrong in the left lane and to make matters worse they try to beat the truck.
    I'll ask the question again if this was a car who's insurance would be paying out?
    It does but I do fear the number of people who think that being, potentially, in the right, is more important than the life of another person.

    Sad times for civilisation.


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    #23
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I know this is a cycling forum, and as such, the vast majority of users will defend the cyclist and find flaw in the truck driver. Which is fair enough.

    However, as someone who does use a bicycle, but admittedly is more of a driver than a cyclist (car driver, I've never drove a HGV), I find it very difficult to point any blame at the HGV driver for this encounter. Clearly (to us, the viewer) the cyclist is in a dangerous spot and is looking for trouble.

    Using the left turn only lane is unacceptable in the circumstances (although I would lean to forgiving it if there was even a cycle lane on the left of the road they were going (straight ahead) to. But there's not even that).

    Although I feel sorry for the cyclist, as he is the one who had the physical interaction with a HGV (not something I'd like), i reckon it's entirely his own fault and would appoint 0% of the blame to the HGV driver based on the footage.


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    #24
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I know this is a cycling forum, and as such, the vast majority of users will defend the cyclist and find flaw in the truck driver. Which is fair enough....

    Who exactly is defending the cyclists? What majority?


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    #25
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ... I find it very difficult to point any blame at the HGV driver for this encounter....

    So the driver in the truck sees a bunch of cyclists at the lights, see a bunch of them ride off in front of him. Its ok to assume there no other cyclists? You're ok with that.


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    #26
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    So the driver in the truck sees a bunch of cyclists at the lights, see a bunch of them ride off in front of him. Its ok to assume there no other cyclists? You're ok with that.

    Yeah. Of course. How long should he sit there for waiting before he takes off waiting on 'other cyclists' to appear?

    A cyclist can queue at a set of traffic lights like other people do, you know. They don't have to be at the front (or in this case, at the side, in the wrong lane).


    I don't cycle too often, but I am even clued in enough to know that you never go into a HGVs blind spot. It's promoted in ads, on literature by road safety crowds (RSA in our case), and it's something I would expect is common knowledge among cyclists. I would hazard a guess that the majority of cyclist related deaths are caused by being crushed by a HGV that didn't see them.


    It was even the first thing the driver said when he got out of the truck.

    beauf wrote: »
    Who exactly is defending the cyclists? What majority?

    Erm...?
    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    The truck driver was completely in the wrong and wasn't even apologetic.
    CramCycle wrote: »
    It is not a case of assuming, he has to have known that there were muppets there. Being in the right does not give him carte blanche to kill someone.
    beauf wrote: »
    The driver saw other cyclists coming from that position ahead of him, and should have anticipated other muppets.
    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    The driver still has a responsibility to ensure that the road space they are moving into is clear.
    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    Driver at fault but contributory negligence on the part of the cyclist(s)


    Just randomly grabbed those quotes from a quick skim of the thread, and that's only a small amount of users. I feel my (first) post was fair enough. Lots of blame towards the HGV driver that I feel is unwarranted.


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    #27
    the whole year inn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,099 ✭✭✭the whole year inn


    CramCycle wrote: »
    He doesn't have to be a mind reader, some were visible before the junction. He was arguably, barely, legally in the right. The cyclists were muppets, all of them. But for him not to expect it was coming is clearly driving without due care and attention.

    It does but I do fear the number of people who think that being, potentially, in the right, is more important than the life of another person.

    Sad times for civilisation.

    If this cycler died and the driver was brought up in court, being right in this instance is his life, he could have a family that depends on him. Why is that sad.
    I can't understand any of the actions of the cyclists I'm not a biker and Espically not around towns but all the bikers that took no disregard to there own lifes and expect to get away with it.


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    #28
    rob w
    Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭rob w


    This is exactly why you should never go down the inside of a truck/bus. If one happens to pull alongside at lights like that - get in front of it where you can be seen or else let the truck go on ahead!!

    Theres blame on both the driver and cyclist here but there is no point getting killed for the sake of trying to prove a point!!

    Lucky escape for the guy - he wont do that again!


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    #29
    CSU
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭CSU


    They simply shouldn't have waited there as they did, it's the wrong lane.

    If I was approaching that on the bike - alarm bells would be going off in my head; 'wait behind the HGV for 100% life preservation'.

    That said, the HGV driver should have took the situation for what it was (a bunch of idiots with no feckin' cop-on) and let them pass...

    They were asking for that imo.


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    #30
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    rob w wrote: »
    Theres blame on both the driver and cyclist here but there is no point getting killed for the sake of trying to prove a point!!
    No point killing to prove a point either. Not great for society that people are ok with killing people once they are legally "in the right" for the sake of a few seconds. That idiot, also happens to be someone's son, maybe a partner or husband, father...


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    #31
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just randomly grabbed those quotes from a quick skim of the thread, and that's only a small amount of users. I feel my (first) post was fair enough. Lots of blame towards the HGV driver that I feel is unwarranted.
    Very selective, bar the OP, everyone else would appear to have called the cyclists muppets, although I think sheeple is probably more accurate.

    I see road users every day do stupid and illegal sh1t. Doesn't give me the OK to plough on. There is no reasonable way the driver could have thought he was in the clear. For those asking how long should he wait. He had numerous options. Merge slightly over to the lane beside. Wait until the last cyclist in his rear view is visible in front.

    There is no easy answer but being in the right doesn't make him right. If he can live with a dead person because they were in the wrong, maybe he should consider retiring.

    The world is alas not black and white


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