HGV Versus Cyclist Road Rage

FAILSAFE 00

I seen this gem in the replies.

Mat Veal: Clearly the lorry. Cyclists don't need to follow the lane markings. Especially here "because it's London" apparently. I'm sure he'd want that on his headstone

"Trampled by a lorry, was in the wrong lane, because it was London"

rob w

Macy0161 wrote: »

No point killing to prove a point either. Not great for society that people are ok with killing people once they are legally "in the right" for the sake of a few seconds. That idiot, also happens to be someone's son, maybe a partner or husband, father...

Absolutley not, but thats not what I said! What I meant is that the only person likely to be killed here is a cyclist. If you dont give the truck the opportunity to flatten you then you wont be flattened!! We are a vulnerable lot!

There is just a bit too much righteousness from some people after incidents like this . There may be new or inexperienced cyclists reading threads/watching videos like these and what they need to learn from it is how to best avoid these situations and not to come away with the attitude of being in the right!

Danbo!

CramCycle wrote: »

Wait until the last cyclist in his rear view is visible in front.

Could be a coincidence, but it does appear as if there's an acceleration just after the cyclist in front of victim appears in drivers field of view - I wondered did the driver maybe think he was the last one to clear before continuing. But no idea on what basis he would consider that to be "all cyclists cleared". It may be just a gear change though.

buffalo

CSU wrote: »

They were asking for that imo.

They were both asking for it.

marklazarcovic

no blame whatsoever for the hgv driver, cyclists in a lane for left turn only attempting to undertake a lorry from a standing start is a death wish and far far beyond stupid,ill bet the cyclist never does it again,because he knows he was blessed to come out alive doing what he did.

the pompous attitude of the others that stopped tells me they would nearly have preferred if there was a injury caused just to highlight their right to be on the road.

in this case,cyclists 100 % at fault, if they were in correct lane they would be behind the lorry,this would not have happened.simple as that.

conor_mc

Honestly can't see what the truck driver has done wrong here. I am a daily city-centre cyclist so won't condone any kind of dangerous driving, but this is clearly the fault of the group of cyclists. You can even tell by the drivers braking reaction that he was not squeezing the cyclist out intentionally, but you can't expect him to do a head count of every cyclist he may or may not have seen in his mirrors while stopped at the lights. The cyclist had zero right to occupy that space, and if you can't get in front of a truck/bus in that situation, then you get yourself behind it asap! You don't push on hoping the cyclists in front of you all take off quick enough to allow you to get out front of the truck.

The driver almost killed someone through no fault of his own, I'd feel pretty road-ragey about that if it was me!!

whomitconcerns

Idiot cyclists (and I cycle in London regularly) you see them all the time doing crap like this because of anything nearly happens or good forbid does happen, everyone will be on "their side". Self righteousness at its best.

Still wouldn't wish a clip from a hgv for anyone. Easily avoided here though with a bit of patience

CramCycle

Danbo! wrote: »

Could be a coincidence, but it does appear as if there's an acceleration just after the cyclist in front of victim appears in drivers field of view - I wondered did the driver maybe think he was the last one to clear before continuing. But no idea on what basis he would consider that to be "all cyclists cleared". It may be just a gear change though.

Worrying if he did as he would have been able to see some of them in his rear view. The acceleration is just a gear change so I didn't read to much into that and he appears to pull right when he hears the shout. I also would have been surprised if any more than the tip of the helmet of the guy who was hit was visible for a split second, you lose the first few feet when driving a HGV and unless he leaned forward (which I was told was good practice to narrow your blind spots), I don't think it would have been obvious.

Every cyclist in that video was in the wrong, most probably due to being sheep or just because they see others do it every day and think, ah shure, that's grand.

The lorry driver would have known there were cyclists to his side, he should have seen the ones further back, he would have seen the ones jump ahead. To jump to the assumption there were none in between is quite a leap and shows massive under awareness. Legally he would be on dodgy enough ground, as other road users being in the wrong does not place you in the right. Morally, exactly the same, there is either the possibility he was ignorantly negligent and did not think it through (ie he let some through and thought he beat the rest) or he was trying to prove a point.

Honestly, I think it was the former and the anger afterwards was the adrenaline in relation to the fear that most normal people would get.

Danbo!

CramCycle wrote: »

Worrying if he did as he would have been able to see some of them in his rear view. The acceleration is just a gear change so I didn't read to much into that and he appears to pull right when he hears the shout. I also would have been surprised if any more than the tip of the helmet of the guy who was hit was visible for a split second, you lose the first few feet when driving a HGV and unless he leaned forward (which I was told was good practice to narrow your blind spots), I don't think it would have been obvious.

Every cyclist in that video was in the wrong, most probably due to being sheep or just because they see others do it every day and think, ah shure, that's grand.

The lorry driver would have known there were cyclists to his side, he should have seen the ones further back, he would have seen the ones jump ahead. To jump to the assumption there were none in between is quite a leap and shows massive under awareness. Legally he would be on dodgy enough ground, as other road users being in the wrong does not place you in the right. Morally, exactly the same, there is either the possibility he was ignorantly negligent and did not think it through (ie he let some through and thought he beat the rest) or he was trying to prove a point.

Honestly, I think it was the former and the anger afterwards was the adrenaline in relation to the fear that most normal people would get.

Yup - completely agree - it could be my own experiences colouring my opinion, but ignorant negligence covers an awful lot of issues I have had on the bike.

Bushmanpm

patrickbrophy18 wrote:

All I can say is I am absolutely shocked and appalled.

So am I but that is where we end in our agreement

patrickbrophy18 wrote:

Given the ambiguous nature of the road (i.e. no clearly marked cycle lanes) coupled with the fact that two cyclists were clearly ahead of the truck, the driver should have used his intuition and waited for the coast to be clear before proceeding. I believe this is referred to in the world of driving as advanced driving.

Ambiguous nature of the road? There is absolutely ZERO ambiguity here, in the absence of a cycle lane, cyclists should comply with the regular lane directions and rules. Also, the driver should have used his intuition? So he is now responsible for the cyclists stupidity as well as his own vehicle? Where is the cyclists responsibility? And as another poster said, how long exactly should the driver wait while the cyclists sort themselves out?

patrickbrophy18 wrote:

The cyclist which the truck hit was almost certainly in his field of vision between 0:23 and 0:25 seconds before he decided to apply more gas. He didn't even attempt to move out and was well within the recommended minimum of 1 meter of clearance to the kerb let alone the cyclist.

The cyclist was also "applying the gas" when perhaps his brake levers would have been a better option? As for the 1 metre clearance, a LGV is somewhat wider than a regular car and therefore doesn't usually have the luxury of the 1 metre margin.

patrickbrophy18 wrote:

The truck driver was completely in the wrong and wasn't even apologetic. His conduct was completely unacceptable and he will likely be fired from his job or at the very least, banned from driving for a good while anyway.

Perhaps the driver was angry and in a bit of shock at the sheer stupidity of the cyclist? I very much doubt he'll lose his job or get a ban. Nice that you'd like to see him lose his livelihood due to the stupidity of someone else.

patrickbrophy18 wrote:

The lane which they waited in may very well have been a left-turn lane. But, the lane to go straight-ahead was completely taken up by the truck. Plus, I didn't see a cyclist resting bay ahead of the stop-line.

It is a Left Turn Only lane. No ifs, no buts. Turn left only! If the Straight Ahead lane was taken up by the truck, wait behind or in front of it, not at the side, that's just dumb. Also, if there's no Cyclist Resting Bay (its not mandatory to have them you know) you just comply with the road markings that ARE present.

patrickbrophy18 wrote:

A small amount of the fault is the ridiculous design of the junction which fails to adequately provide cycle facilities. The truck driver is extremely lucky that he didn't have a death on his conscience.

TfL have spent in excess of
£930,000,000 on cycle infrastructure so although there's no cycle facilities at this junction (again, its not mandatory) its not as if London hasn't paid for cycling infrastructure elsewhere.

So to recap: the blame lies with the LGV driver, the truck was taking up his own lane, no cycle lane and no cycle resting box? And what about all the idiotic cyclists who consciously were in the wrong lane and tried to race a forty ton truck from the lights? Where's the cyclists responsibility for their own safety? As soon as the situation developed, why didn't the cyclist apply their brakes?
But, y'know "Grrr, motor vehicles!"

beauf

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah. Of course. How long should he sit there for waiting before he takes off waiting on 'other cyclists' to appear?

I didn't say he should wait. I said he should expect other cyclists based on what is happening around him.

Deleted User wrote: »

A cyclist can queue at a set of traffic lights like other people do, you know. They don't have to be at the front (or in this case, at the side, in the wrong lane).

Again no one is defending the cyclists being in the wrong lane. You've invented that. But as a cyclist and are first at the lights you should definitely not stay left but stay center lane. The cyclists in the vid are in the wrong lane. Most likely because of the stay left mantra from people who either don't cycle or are inexperienced. Or just bad habits.

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't cycle too often, but I am even clued in enough to know that you never go into a HGVs blind spot. It's promoted in ads, on literature by road safety crowds (RSA in our case), and it's something I would expect is common knowledge among cyclists. I would hazard a guess that the majority of cyclist related deaths are caused by being crushed by a HGV that didn't see them.

Again this is danger of the stay left mantra. That said, I would guess most of these cyclists are going into the blind spot and left turning lane deliberately not from ignorance. They all look like experienced commuters. So using this lane is a bad habit they've got used to.


Erm...?

Deleted User wrote: »

Just randomly grabbed those quotes from a quick skim of the thread, and that's only a small amount of users. I feel my (first) post was fair enough. Lots of blame towards the HGV driver that I feel is unwarranted.

None of those defend the cyclists?

Unless you think there can only be one party at fault in an accident, or that right of way mean you can through common sense out of the window and drive into people.

So how about answering my question...

beauf wrote: »

So the driver in the truck sees a bunch of cyclists at the lights, see a bunch of them ride off in front of him. Its ok to assume there no other cyclists? You're ok with that.

beauf

gctest50 wrote: »

There should be a rule along the lines of :

When a truck is at a standstill and until it has cleared the junction, cyclists must not pass its second axle

The cyclists already ignored numerous rules here. Adding another one will make no difference.

techdiver

As a cyclist, the cyclist was completely in the wrong and an idiot along with all the other cyclists undertaking a HGV. Idiots!

Lucky no one was hurt.

flatface

Have to agree the cyclist showed poor position and judgement and put himself in this dangerous position.
It happens way to much on our roads here, cyclists squeezing up inside buses and hgv dangerously just to gain a meter or 2. So pointless. It's so rare to see anyone stopping behind a bus or truck and waiting in line to move off.

beauf

Bushmanpm wrote: »

...Also, the driver should have used his intuition? So he is now responsible for the cyclists stupidity as well as his own vehicle? ...

Using anticipation or imagination is a key skill in using the road.

Just because I see someone with their indicator on doesn't mean I should ignore the possibility that they won't turn or even turn in the opposite direction. Because people do stupid things all the time. All road users should anticipate that respond accordingly.

Weepsie

The driver is possibly a violent sociopath.

The cyclists are all morons. If they can't figure out that you don't go up the inside of a HGV, particularly when they are in a left turn only lane, then they are Darwin award candidates.

This video has already been discussed at length anyway, opening up this thread is going to attract all the usual nonsense

beauf

flatface wrote: »

Have to agree the cyclist showed poor position and judgement and put himself in this dangerous position.
It happens way to much on our roads here, cyclists squeezing up inside buses and hgv dangerously just to gain a meter or 2. So pointless. It's so rare to see anyone stopping behind a bus or truck and waiting in line to move off.

Even after the cyclist moved off he showed terrible situational awareness to not be watching the HGV. The cyclist should have anticipated the pinch point ahead and looked to see what was behind him.

Rave.ef

Cyclist is one lucky idiot. How could the hgv driver see the mog...

This would be the drivers view

Inviere

Bunch of wreckless tossers, clearly a left hand only lane...no excuse or justification to endanger themselves like that.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Using anticipation or imagination is a key skill in using the road.

Just because I see someone with their indicator on doesn't mean I should ignore the possibility that they won't turn or even turn in the opposite direction. Because people do stupid things all the time. All road users should anticipate that respond accordingly.

I think the most vulnerable road users need to use the most anticipation and imagination......they're the ones that are going to come off second best.

CramCycle

Bushmanpm wrote: »

Ambiguous nature of the road? There is absolutely ZERO ambiguity here, in the absence of a cycle lane, cyclists should comply with the regular lane directions and rules. Also, the driver should have used his intuition? So he is now responsible for the cyclists stupidity as well as his own vehicle? Where is the cyclists responsibility? And as another poster said, how long exactly should the driver wait while the cyclists sort themselves out?

No need to wait, indicate and merge slightly right. Everyone here seems to agree that the cyclists were in the wrong. being in the wrong does not give anyone carte blanche to knowingly or otherwise kill someone.

The position of the cyclists is bred from poor road craft practices that are bet into people from a young age. Cyclists, since I was a child, have this mentality of keeping left bet into them. We have some motorists beep us when we take the lane, I have had people jump out of their cars at junctions because they presumed I stopped at the red just to annoy them and impede their take off.

All of the cyclists were wrong, do you think that the drivers lack of observance or due care and attention were OK because of this?

I had a 4x4 pull out in front of me the other day. It was observance that was to thank that we did not collide in time. If I had ploughed on and hit the vehicle, I would have been in the "right" form a technical perspective. What alot of cyclists and motorists fail to realise is that being in the right and being right are very different things.

The cyclist was also "applying the gas" when perhaps his brake levers would have been a better option? As for the 1 metre clearance, a LGV is somewhat wider than a regular car and therefore doesn't usually have the luxury of the 1 metre margin.

100% on the cyclist applying the brake, never should have been there in the first place, just years of a large number of the population telling him that is the right place to be. Being a sheep, he doesn't realise the issue when the vehicle is a HGV.

Perhaps the driver was angry and in a bit of shock at the sheer stupidity of the cyclist? I very much doubt he'll lose his job or get a ban. Nice that you'd like to see him lose his livelihood due to the stupidity of someone else.

I'd like to see that he understands that being in the right is not the be all and end all. I completely understand his reaction though.

But, y'know "Grrr, motor vehicles!"

no one is saying that

CramCycle

Weepsie wrote: »

The driver is possibly a violent sociopath

I don't think he is, I really believe he made a huge error in judgement and possibly believed he hadn't, when he gets out shouting, that is adrenaline. He thought he might have killed someone. If he was a sociopath and it was intentional, he would not have pulled the cab to the right before stopping.

The cyclists are all morons. If they can't figure out that you don't go up the inside of a HGV, particularly when they are in a left turn only lane, then they are Darwin award candidates.

100% nearly seen a MB get wiped out on the N11 this morning trying to overtake a bus which was mid way through merging for an overtake. It was pure idiocy. Every other MBer held back but this guy missed being pinched by an inch.

This video has already been discussed at length anyway, opening up this thread is going to attract all the usual nonsense

I wish it was Friday, get some real mileage out of it.

Weepsie

I was perhaps unfair on the driver, I apportion little blame to them in this and did so at the first viewing too. They are likely in shock when they are arguing with the cyclist/s too.

I see it too all too regularly. People just inching up inside trucks and vans. I nearly found myself doing it yesterday as I was day dreaming, but copped myself on and waited behind.

CramCycle

Interestingly if the driver had not pulled right after colliding, there is a good chance the camera man would have been taken out of it as well. The guy who was hit was right and centre for a Darwin award. How could he not have noticed the cab to his left? But the camera man follows him as if he expects some quality footage.

johny33

looked a bit like Sagan/Cavendish incident

beauf

Basil3 wrote: »

I think the most vulnerable road users need to use the most anticipation and imagination......they're the ones that are going to come off second best.

So the bigger the vehicle the less anticipation and imagination the driver needs? :P

The HGV showed poor judgement, even if he wasn't in the wrong. The cyclists ticked almost every box on the how not to cycle in traffic.

GreeBo

CramCycle wrote: »

The lorry driver would have known there were cyclists to his side, he should have seen the ones further back, he would have seen the ones jump ahead. To jump to the assumption there were none in between is quite a leap and shows massive under awareness. Legally he would be on dodgy enough ground, as other road users being in the wrong does not place you in the right.

So how long, in your opinion, should he have to sit in the middle of the junction until he is sure all the illegally going straight on bikes have gone?
An hour or two maybe?

There will always be more bikes piling up the inside, illegally.
Where exactly should he look if he has to come to a complete stop and bikes are moving in and out of his various blindspots?

IMO he "allowed" some bikes to pull ahead of him as they would have much faster acceleration, but logically believed that if there were any others (illegally using the left lane) that they would filter in behind him where they would be seen by the car they were overtaking. Not just plow on like lemmings!

They were idiots. And I say this as someone who has commuted into the City Center for 20 years.
You just CANNOT put yourself into that position.

Fian

Cyclists were muppets. dumb to filter inside a HGV using a left turn only lane.

Imo Driver was far worse. It is almost as if he wanted to "educate" the cyclists into the error of their ways - he is clearly accustomed to and understandably annoyed by cyclists filtering inside him like that. I don't suggest he intended to close pass or hit the cyclist he collided with - it is clear he didn't see him, but i think he was trying to close off the cyclists behind him.

He did well to react and stop as he did. Cyclist was extremely lucky. It was scary.

Both were at fault but tbh the cyclists were just dumb, the truck driver appeared to be aggressively asserting his entitlements.

tomasrojo

Going straight ahead from a left-turn lane (from the middle or the right-hand side of the lane) is pretty standard practice. Not a good idea in this case, but it's mentioned in Cyclecraft as a way of stopping motorists from passing you on the inside and then swerving right in front of you. But that's really a manoeuvre for moving traffic, rather than queueing traffic, and certainly being directly adjacent to a HGV at a junction is a terrible idea.

I was surprised that in the video the HGV went straight on. I was sure it was going to be one of those horrific left-turn incidents.

The safest thing at any junction is to queue really. At least to place yourself somewhere behind the first vehicle, plainly visible to the driver of the second.

My takeaway message from this overall is that HGVs don't belong in busy parts of cities (during peak-use hours, I mean).

maximoose

See the same situation almost daily at the lights at Usher's Quay in Dublin. Cyclists gang up in the left turn only lane when the lights are red, plow straight ahead when it changes then wonder why there's horns blaring from the buses they cut off.

I've no idea what the driver can and cannot see there but the cyclists shouldn't put themselves in that position.